Bendric Dayne

I don't think it is like Ned to come up with such a complicated plan thinking about how people won't be satisfied with the first answer so they'll continue to search and be satisfied with the second answer. He can barely come up with one lie, I don't think he'll come up with this plan of a lie within a lie. Either way I don't see why anyone would assume that any initial story is a lie. If they believe the mother is Ashara and Ned later confirms it, why would they think it's some sort of cover up? Nobody thinks any of Robert's bastards have some secret mother. People only get curious about Cersei's children when they see how many Baratheon's have black hair so it's definitely weird that none of her children have black hair. But even that took people a very long time to figure out and it's only because Robert fathered so many bastards that they even began to ask questions. My point is, people aren't really out there questioning the parentage of bastards. The moment they know someone is a bastard they are basically dismissive of their existence. They'll probably buy whatever story they first hear and never think about the bastard again. Hearing multiple different stories and rumors however, makes people wonder and ask questions. If someone like Varys hears one thing from his little birds and another from the king he might put more resources into finding out the truth. Yeah this makes sense and I believe it's probably the reason. Whether it's true or not, Barristan believes her to have birthed a stillborn so at the very least we know some people don't believe her to be Jon's mother. How Barristan got this info is unknown, so it is possible that he would have believed the baby was Jon if that was Ned's story. If there is a clear issue with the timing then I don't see why any character would believe Ashara to be Jon's mother so I suspect that she had her baby at a similar time. Ned could also lie about the timing of Jon's birth to line up with Ashara's pregnancy. Although, I do agree that the reason as to why Ned doesn't use Ashara as his red herring is because some people out there could figure out that that is clearly a lie. Yeah I believe that the Daynes are in on the same lie as Ned and were the ones who possibly conceived it. The fact that Wylla is the lie and that that's the story they tell Ned Dayne tells me that's the case. I guess I'd like to know why it is that the Daynes and Ned came up with the Wylla lie and didn't go along with the Ashara lie. I guess we'll find out if/when TWOW comes out. I don't really think people assume there is any mystery to begin with. What makes it mysterious is the fact that Ned doesn't say anything so people speculate. If he said it was Ashara, then people would accept that as the answer and not think of it further. I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that because of Ned's previous connection to Ashara, saying she's the mother would be the most convincing answer to everyone else. Saying Wylla is the mother doesn't necessarily invite too many questions either, but the most skeptical people like Varys and LF might not be satisfied and would maybe inquire further. I mean, is it more likely that Ned Stark tainted his honor on some common woman, or on the most beautiful woman in Westeros? I think the latter option invites less questions. Yeah I highly doubt Ned would come up with some sort of double bluff situation. He also only tells Robert that Jon's mother is Wylla, he doesn't give any name to anyone else. I suspect that he refuses to lie so long as it's possible, but in the situation in which his king and best friend asks he knows he has to lie. The reason I think most people speculate anything at all is because of Ned's silence. I suspect most would accept either Wylla or Ashara as the answer if Ned only said so. Since he doesn't give an answer people then naturally speculate. My original question was more about the instance in which Ned tells Robert that the mother is Wylla. Why say Wylla instead of going with what everyone else speculates which is Ashara? Either way, it's probably because he knows someone could disprove that Ashara is the mother.

How would him being a bastard of noble blood make him any less safe? If anything, Cat might be more understanding of the situation considering Ashara was dead so Jon would not have any other parent to take care of him so he has to live with Ned. Edric Storm is the son of a Florent and King Robert and he gets treated better than Robert's other bastards because of who his mother is. In what way would Jon being a bastard of noble blood affect him? He's still a bastard either way. He would still have been 'Snow, Ned's bastard' because Ned did not marry Ashara, so Robert's eyes would still have been off him. Not sure what Darkstar has anything to do with this. I'm pretty sure he's not even a bastard since he's 'Gerold Dayne' not 'Gerold Sand'.

If characters like Cersei and Catelyn already suspected Ashara to be Jon's mother, then why does Ned tell Robert that Jon's mother is Wylla and not Ashara if people around him already believe that to be the case? Ashara is dead so it's not like she has to go along with some lie and she did get pregnant out of wedlock so it wouldn't taint her honor any more than what it already is. Seems like the perfect person to claim as Jon's mother. Also, with Wylla being at Starfall and with Ned Dayne believing her to be the mother, it's possible that the surviving Daynes were part of the Wylla lie, so why not just say it was Ashara instead? Presumably, Ned didn't get her pregnant, but someone else did. If anything, saying it was a Stark that got her pregnant probably looks better because the Starks are a great house. So it wouldn't really do the Daynes any harm to claim that Ashara is Jon's mother and that Ned was the one that got her pregnant. I just don't really understand why Ned would go with the Wylla lie when so many other people already believe Jon's mother to be Ashara without any effort from his part on making them believe that. He should just say the mother is Ashara that way people stop wondering who it is. Isn't it more risky for Ned to keep the question open for people to keep wondering and looking for answers until maybe they stumble upon the truth? Doesn't that put Jon's life at risk? Saying Ashara is Jon's mother is the surest and safest way of putting any other rumors to bed and keeping Jon safe.

Was the first Sword of the Morning around before the religion of the Seven came to Westeros? If so, the Daynes could have been into knighthood regardless of religion. The Daynes are First Men so we know for sure that they were around before the religion of the Seven. The question is whether or not the first Sword of the Morning was around before or after the religion of the Seven. If he was around before, was he still called a 'Ser'? I genuinely don't remember the timeline here so it could be nothing, but still interesting.

Aha so Clegane is upset that Beric knighted men he doesn't deem worthy of knighthood. Which implies that the knighting of the bwb is legit. Otherwise, Clegane would not have gotten upset over that. Instead he would have likely mocked Beric for thinking he actually knighted those men, but that's not what happens. Either way... as far as the discussion on House Dayne goes, I think finding examples of knights who don't follow the religion of the Seven and concluding that therefore House Dayne don't have to follow the Seven, is a bit of a stretch (I'm not saying that you are making that conclusion btw). Knighthood is such a big deal for the Daynes that it would make sense for them to follow the religion for which knighthood is likewise a big deal. Although, finding these examples of knights who don't follow the Seven, does at least open the door for these discussions to be had.

True. I think they probably worship the Seven simply because it is the most likely religion any given house would follow. However, the Daynes aren't even mentioned that much so it's possible no character has felt any reason to share the Dayne's religion. So I wouldn't rule out that they worship R'hllor. I mean, do we know what religion House Dondarrion worship? Do they worship R'hllor or did Beric convert all on his own? Either way, I maintain it's possible for Edric Dayne to have converted after his time with Beric, and as Lord of Starfall, he could convert all of House Dayne. If something like that happens, I see them joining up with Dany as they will believe her to be Azor Ahai. Or if someone in Starfall knows about Jon, they could determine that he is Azor Ahai. I don't see them joining up with Stannis though. The Daynes are too connected to the Starks and or Targaryens to not join up with them in the final books; that is if they join up with anyone at all, could be they don't really have any role to play as a House, and only Gerold Dayne and maybe Ned Dayne play some part. Also true. Although I would still ask what their religion was before. The Daynes are First Men so they were in Westeros before the religion of the Seven, so what religion did they belong to then? The Old Gods? Idk. And now that Ned Dayne has hung out so much with Beric, does he worship R'hllor? As Lord of Starfall, will he convert his House to this religion? What implications does that have for the future of House Dayne and their impact in the story? I just think that's what's interesting and that's why I brought the question up. I also didn't really know that knighthood was like an exclusive thing from the religion of the Seven, but yeah either way, with Ned Dayne hanging out with Beric, and with the Daynes being 'First Men', I still think we can ask questions about what their past religion was before the Seven and what their religion will be going forward now that their Lord has been exposed so much to the Lord of Light. Could it be that as 'First Men' they worshipped the Old Gods, then worshipped the Seven when almost everyone was forced to convert, and now will worship the Lord of Light because of their Lord? That could be interesting.

I think this is an interesting question because they could almost worship any of the religions in Westeros. 1. The Lord of Light - It could be that House Dayne follow the Lord of Light. What are the origins of that religion and what are the origins of House Dayne? We know House Dayne have been in Westeros for a very long time, but we don't know from where they came. Many people speculate that they were Valyrian or shared a common ancestor with Valyrians. If true, this could suggest they came to Westeros with dragons. One of the theories out there suggests that they shared a common ancestor with the Valyrians, came to Westeros with dragons and one of their members was the Last Hero who ended the long night. And that Last Hero then founded House Dayne. It's interesting because this would make them connected to the prophecy of Azor Ahai, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a prophecy that comes from the religion of the Lord of Light. Furthermore, Ned Dayne is chosen by Beric Dondarrion to be his squire, and Beric, along with Thoros of Myr, is probably the character that has to do the most with that religion (aside from Melisandre) in all of Westeros. Did he choose Ned Dayne as his squire because the Daynes share his religion? Did Beric convert to this religion when he got betrothed to Allyria? If the Daynes were not of this religion, did Beric convert Ned (who is the Lord of the Daynes so maybe the Daynes switch religions at this point of the story at the command of their Lord)? Does this perhaps ally the Daynes to Stannis, or perhaps to Daenerys if they believe her to be the real Azor Ahai? It's interesting how the Daynes (particularly Arthur) were connected with Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophecy. If the Daynes were strong believers in the Lord of Light and the prophecy of Azor Ahai, how much could they have influenced Rhaegar who was himself obsessed with prohecies? Seems like they could have exchanged notes and reached certain conclusions together. 2. The Seven - This one is pretty straightforward, but yeah basically it's possible they converted to the religion of the Seven whenever it was that everyone converted. I think the Martel's worship the Seven if I'm not mistaken, and the Martel's are the Dayne's liege lords which makes it likely that the Dayne's could have been forced to convert at some point. I'm assuming some lords in different times have different levels of tolerance for that sort of stuff, but yeah given that it is also like the default religion in Westeros, it is very possible that the Dayne's worship the Seven. Which still begs the question, who did they worship before that? 3. The Old Gods - This is the least likely possibility, but it is also my favorite possibility. Dayne's are classified as 'First Men' and if I'm not mistaken, all 'First Men' worshipped the Old Gods until the Andals came. Of course the Dayne's might just fall under that classification of 'First Men' simply because they have been in Westeros for a very long time and not because they actually share any characteristics with the 'First Men'. Like how a person can be classified as 'Italian' because they have an Italian last name, but might not be Italian in any way that actually matters. I.e. they don't have any Italian characteristics and don't do anything from that culture, but are classified in that group because of an ancestor or something like that. There's obviously nothing wrong with that and the classification is still valid, but it would be wrong to assume that they practice the dominant religion in Italy just because they are classified as Italian. Idk if that made sense, but either way, what I'm trying to say is that we can't assume the Dayne's religion based on their classification as 'First Men'. All that said, we just don't know what their classification as 'First Men' entails, do they only have that classification because they have been in Westeros for a very long time, or do they also have more characteristics of the 'First Men'? I think it would be cool if they worshipped the Old Gods and maybe had a Weirwood in Starfall, growing on the stone that fell from the sky. It would make their connections to Ned Stark even stronger and make more sense. And it would be cool if they had Valyrian features and perhaps even Valyrian powers, as well as 'First Men' customs and maybe even powers (like greenseeing?), all while being a House that lives in Dorne, a place far removed from the North, with different customs from the rest of Westeros. It would make the Dayne's like the most diverse House with connections to all the races in Westeros, which would explain their mysterious powers. Anyways, that's all from my blabbering. Really just throwing all my raw thoughts out there so sorry if this post isn't all that organized or whatever. What religion does everyone consider the Dayne's follow?

First off, I have to say I really like the art depiction of Starfall which I'm obviously very excited about since the Daynes are my favorites. Also Edric Dayne (who is presumably the person on a horse in the image) looks like a man grown. Obviously it's just an art depiction, but it's possible that he is maybe 14 at this point in the story and if he matured and grew so much on his journeys, the depiction could be pretty accurate. Either way this image did get me thinking about a few things: 1. Did Ned Dayne return to Starfall? I genuinely don't remember if this was mentioned in the story or not. Like we know he left the BWB, but does anyone mention where he is going? Obviously we presume it's Starfall (this presumption is why I'm questioning whether it was confirmed or not), but either way we would have no idea if he has made it by the end of Dance. Will we see him arriving (from Aero Hota's POV) at some point in Winds, or will he already be there when a POV gets there? Will Ned Dayne reappear in the story at all? My guess is that he will already be there when Darkstar and Hota and whoever else show up there, and he'll possibly die (hopefully not, he's a sweet little kid) or something. So the artwork isn't really depicting anything we will see, but something that will have happened which I think is pretty cool. 2. Based on this artwork (which I'm pretty sure these artworks are depictions from the artist which aren't necessarily accurate) Ashara is definitley dead if she threw herself from Palestone Tower. Although, there really would be no reason as to why her body would not be found since she either would have landed on the city, or in this very rocky river, or maybe there is land behind the tower. Either way, there is little indication, based on this artwork, that there is any deep body of water where Ashara would have landed. From what I can tell, it looks like Palestone Tower is in the middle of the city so she would have just fallen on a street somewhere. Anyways, I wouldn't go ahead and start confirming Ashara theories based off this depiction since it's likely just an inaccuracy in the artwork. 3. Why is my boy Edric crossing the river like that when there is a perfectly fine bridge to the right?? It's most definitely for the artwork to look cooler as well as for the artist to show how Starfall is in the mouth of a river, but still. Maybe Ned is trying to return to Starfall incognito (although definitely not since he is wearing his colors and sigil proudly). He probably figured that his horse needs a washing and he's got to cross the river either way so might as well kill two birds with one stone. 4. Overall, I'm impressed with Eddie Mendoza's artwork of Starfall. As a huge fan of the Daynes I always said that Starfall is the place in Westeros where I would live, and this artwork just makes me love Starfall all the more. There's likely nothing to look at here as far as theories or TWOW go, but it's still fun to look at the artwork and get a bit excited for what it could mean. Like if this artwork implies we'll be seeing Ned Dayne again, and/or that we'll be seeing Starfall at some point, then that gets me pretty excited. Anyways, in the end, it's just nice to be able to enjoy ASOIAF artwork as it just gets me more immersed into the world of ice and fire, and I'm sure many of you feel the same way!! (Also I don't think there is a way for me to share the artwork here, but it was posted on Not a Blog yesterday, and you can probably Google it. Either way, make sure to check it out since it's a super cool artwork.)

Yeah Dany is what prompted me to ask this question. Some other characters are far from where they have to be for the final act, but at least one can guess that the next thing they'll do once they finish what they are doing is to take steps towards getting there. And those steps are not so much to think it's impossible to fit them in a reasonable number of chapters. But with Dany... Jesus. There's so much she has to do to get to Westeros, not to mention everything she is supposed to do once she gets there, and she's just messing around with vision quests in the Dothraki sea??? Like girl get your sh*t together and make your way to Westeros, what are you doing??

I mean, I could argue that wrapping up all of those storylines without rushing through them in just 2 books is just as hard or harder. And it's probably one of the main reasons why GRRM is struggling. I'm hoping that he can write the conclusion to the series without rushing through and without a time jump, but it's very difficult and a time jump is the better option if he has to do one of the two IMO. It isn't as good as actually writing all of the events that should happen in the last 2 books, but it could work. Maybe like this?: I'm thinking a two year gap about halfway through Winds. The first half would be dedicated to getting some characters into positions where a time gap makes sense, or to wrapping up some character plotlines. The second half of the book kicks off the final act of the series with all characters already in place for their conclusions. Stannis- Depends on how much longer GRRM plans for him to be in the story. If he does not die in the battle of winter, then it could make sense for him to hide in Winterfell for two years while others think he's dead. Or if he wins the first battle but chooses not to lay siege on Winterfell he hides somewhere else, like White Harbor with his new allies: the Manderlys. Or GRRM dedicates more Stannis chapters to the beginning of the book in order to wrap up his story before the time jump if he doesn't have much else to do. Wildlings- A bit trickier to predict since it isn't clear what GRRM has planned for them. Maybe they take over the Night's Watch outraged by Jon's death. They keep Melissandre around since they know she's working with Mance. Jon is resurrected. They let the rest of the Wildlings north of the Wall pass through. Depending on the outcome of the battle with Stannis, they choose either to march south or stay in the Wall. If Stannis is in Winterfell Jon and the wildlings join forces with him there and stay there for the time gap. Or the snows force them to stay in the Wall for the duration of the time gap. It's not perfect, but to be fair a lot depends on the outcomes of Jon's and Stannis's stories which can both go a few different ways. Dany- (Probably the main reason a time gap would be beneficial). She gathers the Dothraki to her cause and returns to the aftermath of the Battle of Mereen. She meets Tyrion, Marwyn, and Victarion and makes deals with them in order to add them to her cause. Now with Victarion's fleet she declares her intentions to liberate the cities of Essos and to return to Westeros. The time gap happens. Her fleet is on her way to Westeros as she recalls the swift conquests of Yunkai, Astapoor, Lys, Pentos, and Volantis (maybe Braavos as well), and how easy they were with her dragons. This way she can already be on her way to Westeros by the start of the second half of TWOW. Brienne- This one is tricky, but either she and Jaime get imprisoned for two years while the brotherhood plots how they'll use Jaime to blackmail the Lannisters/Freys. Or she and Jaime escape the brotherhood and spend 2 years looking for Sansa. So after the gap, Brienne can recount how she and Jaime searched here and there, followed this clue and that clue, but have not found her yet. Maybe now they are following one last clue without any real hope of finding her, and this ends up being the one that leads to Sansa. I'll still concede to your point and say that it isn't perfect, but idk maybe it could work. How much does it fix? It's hard to tell. Maybe when we get the book, if events are rushed, we'll have our answer. Hopefully not though.

Yeah idk, I find the OP kind of silly (not the person who reposted it, but the actual original post, the person who reposted has made some good points in the replies, some of which with I agree, and others with which I do not). I just have to ask myself what the point of it is? It seems to me like they're just trying to say that if you find Jaime's story compelling, and if you dislike Cersei, then you're sexist because actually Jaime's story is a Madonna/whore complex trope thing (which it isn't) so you have to be sexist. It's kind of like a post a few months ago (which at least had more of an argument behind it) asking if Dany was a white savior. Like, maybe?? But what's the point they're trying to make? That you have to be racist if you like Dany's story? Or that Dany's story is racist? Or that the author is racist for writing Dany's story like that? Again, this one with Dany is at least arguable, but in the end both of these ignore a few things set up by the author in order to fit the stories in question into these particular tropes. Like how Dany ain't white because white isn't a race the author established to exist in this world, she's Valyrian. If Valyrians would have been described as having dark skin instead of white, the story would be exactly the same, yet no one would ask if Dany is a white savior. Or how Brienne and Jaime are both complex characters who the author placed together since they are different so that they can challenge each other's ideas, learn from each other, and grow as characters. Nah let's ignore the fact that Brienne is a character and just say that she's there to serve Jaime's arc. Which, if that was the case, would that really be so problematic? There are tons of stories with main characters surrounded by supporting characters who are only there to serve the arc of the main character. This doesn't seem to be a problem when the supporting characters are male. It's funny, if a story has too many male characters, people complain because there are not enough female characters. When stories have a more balanced number of male/female characters, they complain because some of the female characters are in a supporting role which is 'sexist'. I mean, it obviously does happen where female characters are portrayed in a sexist manner, and that is obviously wrong, but when we start pulling at straws and ignoring story elements in order to shoehorn a certain aspect of a given story into a sexist trope, we can come up with all sorts of conclusions for all sorts of stories. If Brienne was just a story element to make Jaime better, and if she was male instead, would there be any problem here? So who's discriminating based on gender then? (In other words, if the problem that the OP has with Jaime's story is that Brienne is a woman, then they're the one with a gender issue). As for Jaime being likeable and Cersei being unlikeable, this is GRRM's intention and he's a great writer, so it's easy for him to compel us to what he wants us to. It's pretty simple, for all the terrible things Jaime has done, he's in a redemption arc fueled by something terrible happening to him, which is compelling. Cersei has done arguably worse things and is not in a redemption arc. Sure the last thing that happened to her in the books is terrible and made me feel bad for her, but there is no indication of a redemption arc for her as of yet, so I really have no reason to be rooting for her. Maybe this will change in the next book. Yeah her motivation to protect her children is compelling, but it only gets her so far. IMO her actions are fueled more by her pride than anything else. Which is great character work from GRRM. Like don't get me wrong I love reading Cersei chapters and analyzing her character, she's just also a terrible, spiteful, manipulating, and petty person who has few redeeming qualities. If she were only motivated by her need to protect her children she would be more compelling, but in the end her pride motivates more of her actions than protecting her children does. For example, if she wanted to protect her children, she would have ran away with them when Ned confronted her, counting herself lucky that Ned even decided to give her that mercy. Yet she's too proud and would not accept defeat to the Starks, so she has stayed in KL and it has cost her her firstborn and it will cost her her other 2 children. So her only redeeming quality which is her love of her children and cause to protect them, falls short because she constantly puts her pride above all else. It's not that her children need to be safe, but they need to be safe and in KL putting her in a position of power which she is proud of. When it comes down to choosing one or the other... well we saw what happened to Joffrey. It's just silly to say that it's sexist to dislike Cersei and not Tyrion or Jaime because they are all the same, when that is just not the case. I'd say Jaime and Tyrion are more like Dany. She isn't perfect and one could define her as ruthless, but she is also just and kind and caring. In his redemption, Jaime also becomes more just and kind and caring whilst also being ruthless. And it's the same with Tyrion. (Sure Tyrion and Jaime have probably done worse things than Dany so far, but my point stands). Dany and Cersei are both ruthless, but Cersei does not have the redeeming qualities that Dany has. And guess what, most of the fandom finds Dany to be a compelling character. So I don't really think the issue here is that people like Tyrion and Jaime because they are men and dislike Cersei because she is a woman. They dislike Cersei because she isn't likeable and has very little qualities that make her compelling. It's just such a modern day thing to pick apart stories where there is a woman and look for ways it can be construed as sexist. Or to pick apart a story with a minority race and look for ways it can be construed as racist. Yet, when stories have neither, they're sexist/racist for excluding them. And when they make sure to include women/minorities for the sake of diversity and make these characters so bland that they cannot be accused of being portrayed in a sexist/racist fashion in a story that is so boring because of it, then they are applauded for being inclusive and any critics are sexist/racist for not liking the incredibly boring story. I'm not denying that some people will dislike female characters who are not a certain way, or that this fandom is devoid of such people. But to say that disliking Cersei and not Jaime/Tyrion makes this fandom sexist is just silly because this fandom has so much love of so many great female characters that GRRM has written. Like idk, maybe give us the benefit of the doubt?

I agree that a time jump now, is unnecessary, but I disagree that it would be redundant. A time jump could help the story out in a few ways. If done right, I think it would be desirable for how it would help the story. I prefer the story without a time jump, and hope that GRRM can finish the story without rushing through events. However, if he has to do one or the other, I prefer he does a time jump that skips over some details, so that we spend more time in the ending, as opposed to rushing through the rest of the story. Also, I don't think a time jump after ASOS would have skipped over the events of AFFC and ADWD. I think it would have just moved them over so they'd be after the time jump when some of the characters would be more grown up and experienced. GRRM ended up not doing it because some characters were not in a position in which a time jump would make sense and so he'd have to do too many flashbacks on the next books. And yeah that's still the case now, a lot of characters are not in a position in which a time jump makes sense, but a lot of characters are also in a position where GRRM would have to rush through events to end their stories. So he could spend the first half of TWOW getting characters to a place where a time jump makes sense, and the second half after the time jump. So characters like Dany would maybe have like 5 or 6 chapters in the first half of the book to get her to a place where a time jump makes sense, but characters like Sam or Arya would only have one chapter establishing how they are in training. After the time jump, they're all trained up and ready to go for the final act. It's not perfect, but it could work. Looking back at it, what would have made more sense, would have been for the time jump to have taken place after AFFC. Since a lot of characters were in a place where a time jump made sense after ASOS, and since AFFC already excludes half the characters, AFFC should have only had characters who needed to do stuff that got them to a place where a time jump made sense. Like basically, Cersei and Sam could stay the same in that book. Only with a time jump after the book, it is established that Sam spent 5 years training at the Citadel, and Cersei 5 years imprisoned by the Faith since Jaime abandoned her and no one can save her. Characters, like Jon, Dany, and Bran would not have been in the book, and would only have been in ADWD with everything essentially being the same, only now they are five years older with much more experience. In the end, I'm not advocating that we absolutely need or even should get a time jump in TWOW. We should get the best conclusion to the story possible. IMO the best conclusion does not have a time jump, and covers all the events at a reasonable pace, no matter how many books it takes. However, the best conclusion of the series in the space of only 2 books might include a time jump. Hopefully GRRM can finish the story without a time jump and without it feeling rushed in only 2 books but we'll have to wait and see.

I mean, I think he can write a few chapters to get some characters/plotlines to a place where a time jump makes sense. Like with your example, GRRM can establish in just one chapter that YG is setting up a siege in Storms End, leaving a few of his forces there for the siege, while taking the rest of his force to take more small castles in the Reach and Stormlands. We leave him there, and when we see him again, after the time jump, he's coming back to the siege of Storm's End when it's coming to an end because his forces have starved out the castle with the time that has passed. So he'll basically just negotiate a surrender of the castle. There they can establish which castles YG got a hold of during that time. Plus Arianne will likely ally Dorne with YG's cause. So in only 2 chapters, GRRM can establish how YG basically has control of the Reach (or parts of the Reach), the Stormlands, and Dorne; setting YG up for his conquest of KL in a way that shows he has formidable forces and power to do so. I'd prefer to get into more detail and see the battles and everything play out, but there just isn't enough space in the book for all of that. In the end, we're more interested in what YG will do in the overarching plot of the books (in other words, we want to see what he'll do in KL and how that will affect the other major players like Cersei, and Dany, and the rest of Westeros), so I'd prefer to have enough time for that part than for the set up, since there isn't enough space for both. Ideally, GRRM could spend as much time as he wants with each character and plotline, no matter how many books it takes, but to fit everything into only 2 books there might have to be compromises.

Yeah I agree with this. I think the issue is that for some publishing reason the book can’t be as long as we would like. I think it’s something to do with some paperback books falling apart after 1500 pages or something. If not he could finish the series in two books with no problem because they could be as long as they’d need to be to fit everything in. So yeah I think he’s probably struggling to fit this book into only 1500 pages. But yeah I agree with you. I don’t mind the slow pace and if it could be as long as GRRM wanted, then the more the merrier. I prefer a slow paced book than a book that feels rushed. I’m just worried that TWOW will be the latter because he has to fit so much in this book. Which is why I wonder about a time skip. Maybe not 5 years but maybe a year or 2 or something like that. It could get GRRM closer to the ending and then be able to take his time writing that ending, instead of having to rush everything from here on out. But what do I know? I’m just throwing it out there to see what people think. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or anything.

Yeah I think the hairy bear explained it a lot better than I could. I feel like if there were more books then I wouldn't have any issues with this book. I love getting to know more and more of this world and to have characters I like explore things that impact their plots and character arcs is great. It just feels like ADWD should have concluded a few plot points (particularly, I felt like everyone who is in Essos should have been wrapping up whatever they have going there), instead it feels like it adds more plot points and more characters that just add to the huge list of things that need wrapping up in the last 2 books. With Dany in particular, I feel like there is so much she has to do in Westeros (like meet Jon, help in the fight against the others, do some conquests, etc.) I wonder what she is still doing in Essos with no intention of going to Westeros. Not only that, why are there more and more plots added to her story that do not get her any closer to leaving? It seems like she has more stuff to do in Essos by the end of this book than she did at the beginning of this book. Like, almost nothing was wrapped up in terms of her plot in Meeren. Don't get me wrong, I still really like this book. Everything in the north was particularly amazing, I can read the Theon, Davos, and Jon chapters all day long (and that one Melissandre chapter is great). So it's more that this book worries me in terms of wether or not everything it sets up can be wrapped up in the last two books.

Yeah I think one of the more disappointing aspects of the show was how short winter was, when they talked about how it was basically going to be the Long Night pt.2. Although the title for the last book, A Dream For Spring, does make it sound like the series will end in winter still. But either way a time jump can really let winter marinate with characters remarking how miserable it has been and everything. A time jump could make it feel more like the Long Night. Does he have interviews about this topic? It would be interesting to see. I'm not sure how much a time jump is on his radar, but it could make sense. Guess, we'll see!

I'd prefer it if there wasn't a time jump, but I prefer a time jump to set up the ending over a rushed ending of the series. So I don't think it would be too bad if GRRM spends half of TWOW or the whole book to get characters to a certain point in their stories where a time jump makes sense. For example, I think characters like Arya, Sam, Sansa, and Bran are already in a decent place for a time jump so GRRM could just write one chapter for each establishing what they are doing, and what they will be doing for the duration of the time jump. Other characters would need to do more things to get to a place in their stories where a time jump makes sense. For example, Tyrion and Arianne have to fight their respective battles before the time jump. GRRM can then do the time jump and explain how Tyrion was basically traveling back to Westeros for most of the time jump, and Arianne was seizing more castles with YG. Again, I'd rather the series continue without time jumps, (ideally, we would spend as much time as necessary to reach the ending and as much time as necessary in the ending as well, no matter how many books it takes, but I'm not sure if it's possible with only two books remaining) but I'm not sure if it can be finished without rushing some parts. So a time jump might be the best way to skip over some details of how we get to the end, but then we ultimately spend more time with the ending.

Yeah I think that is the main problem with Dance. It just doesn't progress the story enough. This is made clearer by the fact that GRRM moved the battles of ice and fire to the beginning of Winds when they were supposed to be the climax for a lot of characters in Dance. So Dance basically doesn't have a climax. I remember being disappointed when I found out that Feast wasn't going to have Jon, Dany, or Tyrion, so I was surprised when I finished reading it and ended up really liking it. I thought Dance was going to blow me out of the water, but it fell a little short. It's still a great book, but I think GRRM indulges just a little bit too much on expanding his world. Like, I love all of Jon's chapters in this book, but at the same time GRRM could have been a bit more concise IMO, considering he only has 2 books left to wrap up the story. Although, I do understand that Jon's death kinda had to be at the end of the book, so it would have been difficult to progress his story too much. Dany, however, was way too much time on Mereen. It's only like her last chapter that gives us any sign of her storyline slightly progressing. I feel like the book should have at least ended with her already having the Dothraki army on her side (if that's what she's going to do. if it isn't then it should have ended with the conclusion of whatever it is she's going to do with the dothraki. basically, she should have been on her way back to Mereen at the very least.) I know a lot of people have a big appreciation for the Mereen plot and everything, but it should have been moved along faster. Tyrion moves along fast enough or me, but the problem with him is that a good number of his chapters drop in terms of quality and are not that interesting imo. I mean, in the end it's still a great book, and it's hard to judge it when there are still 2 books missing, but it is a bit frustrating to think that there are only 2 books missing and some characters are nowhere near where they should be for their climaxes. So I don't really mind that GRRM took his time with his characters (I actually like a lot of the expansions we get in this book), I'm just not sure he can finish in only 2 books, or, if he does, the ending might feel rushed. If that's the case, then I'll begrudge him taking so much time on things that in the end will feel unnecessary. But I do give him the benefit of the doubt. I remember thinking that Robb's campaign was going to last for the rest of the books at the time of the RW, yet it concluded then and there in a satisfying and sensible manner, without feeling rushed at all. So he could pull it off for the rest of his characters. I suppose we'll see.

How would you rank the books from the main series? It’s obviously no easy task since they are all so great and it will just come down to preference. I will say that my ranking may be a bit skewed by the fact that I watched the show first. 5. A Clash of Kings It sucks to put this one last since it’s so good, but then again, they are all so good and one of them has to be last. It’s a great book, but most of the main characters are going through setup for the next book. Except Tyrion who is fantastic in this one. I also didn’t enjoy the new POV’s as much. Since I had already watched the show being introduced to Pyke and Dragonstone and Stannis with Theon and Davos respectively, just wasn’t that interesting to me since I already knew a lot of it. Although, the new things I did get to learn and being inside these characters heads was nice and made it more enjoyable, but yeah at times it felt like a chore to read some of those chapters. Particularly Theon, and particularly early on. 4. A Dance With Dragons It’s so hard to decide whether or not to place this one higher than AFFC, but ultimately I think this one is held back a little by half of Tyrion’s chapters. I loved seeing him with YG and co and seeing him figure all that out, but other than that his chapters weren’t as great as they were in the previous books. At times Dany’s chapters were frustrating because I just want her to leave Mereen and it’s a little bit harder for me to care about the politics there. Other than that the book was great! I loved Theon on this one and being able to have him as POV for the stuff in the north was fascinating. And Davos was also so awesome to read and to see the Manderly plot and his amazing speech. 3. A Feast for Crows These last 3 were definitely the hardest to place. I think ADWD and AFFC just have a lot more new stuff for people who had seen the show before reading the books compared to ACOK. So that’s probably why I placed these 2 higher. I think where AFFC edges out ADWD is with Jaime and Cersei being so fascinating to read. In the show Jaime is cool since he has that redemption arc and what not, but he was always kind of an ok character for me. But in the books it took me by surprise how much I loved reading his chapters. Also, I know a lot of people dislike Brienne’s chapters, but I thought they were really entertaining. And I loved to see the stuff in Dorne develop too. I think ADWD probably has higher highs with Jon and Dany especially, but lower lows with Tyrion and Dany. Whereas AFFC has decent highs, but for me, there aren’t really any lows (except maybe some of the ironborn stuff, but that’s also in ADWD so it cancels out). 2. A Game of Thrones It’s crazy how much I loved this book despite having seeing the show first. In a lot of ways this book is basically season 1 of the show but being inside these characters’ heads was such a great way to relive those events. I loved Ned in the show and he’s even better in the books. I’m just a huge fan of that type of character and the way he remembers Lyanna so solemnly without revealing anything about Jon is greatly done. Also, every single character is just so amazing and I’d never get disappointed by seeing any character’s name on the title for the next chapter. There is just so much to love about the setup for this world and its characters that even knowing where a lot of it will lead, it was still so fascinating to read. 1. A Storm of Swords Yeah I know it’s so basic to have this one at number one, but it’s just way too good. I guess I was kind of taken by surprise because the events of this book cover 2 seasons of the show instead of one (and the 2 seasons it covers are probably the best ones of the show). So I thought the RW was a little early when I read it and was kind of confused. Was definitely not expecting for Joffrey’s wedding and Tyrion’s trial to also be in this book. Plus Jon becoming LC and Arya leaving for Bravos. So it was a lot of stuff that I already knew happened, but that is just so awesome that it’s great to read. But then the new stuff is so great too. Like I guess I didn’t know that all the Starks had warging abilities with their wolves but that was just so awesome to read. I think the first Arya chapter she has a wolf dream that hyped me up so much for the rest of the book. Lady Stoneheart was great too. And this is the first book with Jaime and it’s so great. Basically, all the characters be peaking and it’s just too good! So yeah, that’s how I would rank these books. To be fair the last three are probably pretty interchangeable depending on how I’m feeling. Like remembering Catelyn’s conversation with Jaime and the HOTU which are both so great makes me want to place ACOK higher, or remembering some of Theon’s chapters in ADWD and Manderly’s speech makes me want to place that book higher, but yeah I’d say this ranking reflects how I feel most of the time. How does everyone else feel? I know it’s a silly thing to rank them since they are all so good, but it’s still fun to see what people think!

Absolutely. At the very least we know that whomever told Ned Dayne stories growing up is lying. Either Wylla is a wet nurse that serves House Dayne, or she somehow showed up with Ned at Starfall with Jon. The Daynes can either actually believe that Wylla is Jon's mother or they know she isn't because she is a wet nurse at Starfall, so they would know that Ned couldn't have gotten her pregnant. The fact that they tell Ned Dayne that Wylla was both a wet nurse in Starfall, and Jon's mother means that they are lying because they would know that one of those things isn't true. The thing is, if they actually believed that Wylla is Jon's mother, who randomly shows up with Ned Stark, why would they lie about her being a wet nurse? So clearly, the lie is that Wylla is Jon's mother. Either that, or Wylla spawns out of nowhere, Ned tells her to lie about being Jon's mother, she goes to Starfall with Ned, becomes a wet nurse in their service, and never reveals the truth about Jon. We already know all this, but my point is that all of this shows that the Daynes are likely in on Jon's secret, and the ones who would know anything are all conveniently dead, and told their children the same lie as Ned Stark. When it comes to the whole midwife situation, I can take it or leave it at this point. It technically makes more sense if there was one there, but if there wasn't then I don't really care that much. Exactly. I myself, am not really convinced of anything. She might be dead or she might not be. I just have a lot of questions and I'm open to them being answered in any way as long as the answers are satisfying. My fear is that my questions won't be answered and everything will just remain a mystery.

It's a good point. We know how rigid Stannis is. Is he so rigid that he would fight Robb until he kills him because he called himself king? Possibly. However, Stannis does try to legitimize Jon Snow because it is convenient for him. I think if Robb agrees to being reduced to warden of the north, essentially ending the war, then that would be too convenient for Stannis not to agree. But it's definitely not a given.

True. Either way Rhaegar or Arthur or both of them would have had to convince Lyanna she could trust the Dayne's. So then when she talks to Ned she convinces him to go to Starfall. Otherwise, Ned goes to Starfall out of desperation. Or if there was a midwife or servant of house Dayne at the ToJ, Ned figured what the hell, this person already knows and will bring the secret back with them to Starfall so he might as well go with them. Just thought of this, but maybe Ashara was at the ToJ? Having given birth to a stillborn she would be able to breastfeed. Probably not the case, but still interesting. Especially since it's pretty weird how we are randomly told that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn in the last book. Probably just to confuse us more by having another person give birth around the time Jon was born. I mean, if people in-world believe Ashara is Jon's mother, there would have to be word that she was pregnant, and I guess not everyone knows the child was stillborn. So in a way GRRM is just covering his bases by having Ashara be pregnant around that time. Either way the midwife thing is technically kind of an issue, but idk it's a weird one for me. If there was a midwife, it fixes the problem of having someone there to breastfeed Jon, but adds the problem of having someone else that knows of Jon's secret. Maybe this person grew so fond of Lyanna they would want to keep the secret, or maybe they are so loyal to House Dayne that they keep the secret in their honor. Plus there's Lyanna's body which I doubt Ned just left rotting there. Which means they likely carried it to Starfall so that they could tend to it and so Howland could take it north in a ship. Ned might have stayed at Starfall for a while or gone north immediately, but I think he stayed a while since they grew to like him enough to give Edric the same nickname. I get why the details might be irritating, but idk I guess I haven't thought about it that much. If the show runners for GOT knew any details about the ToJ then there's a chance that there actually was a midwife there since there is one in the show. Wether that's something GRRM told them idk. People on this forum have mentioned goat's milk, maybe there were a few bottles of that at the ToJ just in case to minimize the amount of people that would be there. Also, idk how long it would realistically take them to get to Starfall from the ToJ, and it's not something I have really thought about either. But I understand how these details can be irritating. Maybe GRRM finds a way to tie it all up nicely. As long as the main questions and mysteries are answered in a satisfying way, I'll be fine with it all. If he never says there was a midwife or wet nurse around, we can just assume they used goat milk or come up with some sort of solution for these problems on our own. Or, like you say, these details don't add up because they are part of some important reveal.

Or rather why do events surrounding her death make little sense when we add up the the things we know? For example, we know she lost her friend Elia and Elia's kids to whom she probably had a connection towards. Her own child was a stillborn. Whoever the father of that child was, likely broke her heart. Or regardless of who got her pregnant, Ned maybe broke her heart if Ned Dayne's story is true. On top of all of that, Ned killed her brother, and of all the reasons she could have killed herself this is the one most people in-world seem to think caused it. Being the last of all of these events it's at least the one that drove her over the edge. Had none of the other things happened, and had she only lost her brother, would she still have killed herself? Idk. Either way, as things stand, it seems that Ashara killed herself when Ned arrives from the ToJ with news of her brother's death (and possibly breaks her heart as well) which he himself caused. So it's very weird that the Dayne's would allow Ned to hang around Starfall for a while if he basically caused Ser Arthur's death and Ashara's death. I think it's one thing to allow him to stay after killing Ser Arthur. Ser Arthur was a knight and he died a knight's death, maybe Ser Arthur even told Ned to go to Starfall and say that it was Arthur's dying wish for Ned to stay there long enough for Jon to be healthy for the journey north. But then Ned caused the death of Ashara so why let him stay? Maybe, if it was Ser Arthur's command for Ned to stay for Jon's safety, the Dayne's felt duty bound to let him stay despite all the tragedy Ned seemingly caused their family. But that still wouldn't explain why Edric Dayne is Ned's namesake. It's one thing to let Ned stay because they feel they have to let him stay, it's another to give a family member of yours the same nickname in Ned's honor. Like maybe Ned is so awesome that despite him causing the deaths of two of your family members, he still grows on you and you end up liking him? But still wouldn't his name just remind you of the lives he cost your family? Wouldn't hearing the name "Ned" just remind you of how Ashara threw herself into the sea because of this guy? Now I'm not a huge fan of the Arthur or Ashara being alive theories, mostly because they rely on a lack of evidence rather than actual evidence. Like the only evidence we have is the fact that we don't know what happened in the ToJ so anything could have happened so anyone connected to those events could be alive. Don't get me wrong, this is still better "evidence" than some other theories out there which rely on actively misinterpreting the text for them to be true. The lack of evidence does tell us something is up, otherwise we would be told what happened in a more straightforward manner. This doesn't mean Arthur and Ashara are alive, but that their deaths and circumstances surrounding their deaths, are not as straightforward as we might think. Or maybe they are alive, who knows? I think Arthur at the very least had a conversation with Ned which is why Ned went to Starfall. Arthur maybe even survived the ToJ, and is who knows where. If Arthur survived then I don't see Ashara jumping from the tower and that is just a likely fake death as well. At the very least I think it's weird how Ned can confirm beyond a doubt that Ser Arthur died in the ToJ, but he only ever says that Ser Arthur would have killed him if not for Howland Reed. When he thinks about how only he and Howland survive, it is unclear if he means that they are the only ones of their group, or the only ones of everyone fighting. So in both occasions, it is left unclear, and idk why. Maybe they came up with a pact to protect Jon and Ser Arthur took Ned to Starfall so that Jon can be safe. At Starfall, Ser Arthur made sure the rest of the Dayne's were in on the pact. Maybe they concluded it would be best to spread word that both Ser Arthur and Ashara had died, so that they could both do important stuff undercover. Maybe part of the pact was for Ashara to marry Howland to make sure Howland kept the secret of Jon's birth. Maybe Arthur and Ashara died years later doing something important for Jon, who knows? In the end, there's just too much we don't know. All I know is that what we do know, doesn't really make sense. Particularly, Edric Dayne, being Ned Stark's namesake and having such an admiration towards him. So at the very least, the circumstances surrounding the deaths of Ashara and Arthur (and the deaths themselves) are not as straightforward as they seem. Either that or their entire point is just to be mysterious and nothing else will ever be revealed about them.

Yeah I don't think the RW happens if Robb doesn't marry Jeyne. I think Walder is too much of a coward to openly betray Robb without cause. Regardless of him marrying Jeyne, I think he ultimately lost the war at the BW as many people here have said. Thing is, he did everything right, only Edmure messed up his plans. If he successfully lures Tywin to the Westerlands, Tywin can't make it back in time to the BW and Stannis takes KL. If Robb's plan worked he would have made Tywin look like a fool. By then, losing the Freys is not as big a deal. Tywin can remain west or try and assault KL or the Riverlands. So all Robb has to do is make sure his forces in the Riverlands remain behind castle walls which would force Tywin to siege the castles which would be incredibly difficult. Meanwhile, he negotiates with Stannis for the return of Sansa, which likely means Robb gives up his crown and remains warden of the north, but at this point it essentially ends the war so I think no one would complain. Besides Stannis isn't his enemy so there is no reason to fight him. If Tywin stays west, Robb and Stannis likely join forces to take the Westerlands and either force Tywin to surrender or leave him rotting in Casterly Rock as they take every other castle, meaning Tywin loses his power since he can't even protect his own people. In this scenario, Robb loses the Freys, but Roose likely doesn't plot to take Winterfell since the war is essentially over and they're all going back North soon anyways. Any ironborn or other rebellious force (Ramsay if he somehow does take a few castles) would just be a nuisance for the returning army to dispose of with relative ease. If Ramsay doesn't do anything then the few forces that stayed up north, take care of the ironborn. So there was a lot that was out of Robb hands that made him lose, but if his plan to lure Tywin west would have worked, he still ends up winning in my opinion, even after marrying Jeyne and losing the Freys.

No. She breaks Jaime out of jail to prevent the Karstarks from killing him because a dead Jaime is no leverage at all. A dead Jaime basically guarantees a dead Sansa. Cat releases Jaime so that the Lannisters don't kill Sansa. Yeah she tells Jaime that he is honor-bound to bring Sansa back to her, but she admits to herself that that isn't likely since Jaime is so dishonorable and an oathbreaker. She doesn't actually think he's going to keep his oath to bring her back. As much as she hopes that Jaime finds it in himself to keep his oath she doesn't release him for that reason. She releases him because she has to prevent his murder in order to keep Sansa alive. Besides, I don't know why you would think Jaime was going to serve them as leverage for much longer, the Karstarks were going to kill him which makes him worthless to Robb. Releasing him also makes him worthless to Robb, but at least it means that the Lannisters won't revenge kill Sansa. Either way, a freed Jaime or a dead Jaime, mean the Starks would have lost their leverage either way. Except a dead Jaime also gets Sansa killed, whereas a freed Jaime keeps her alive.