Ser Arthurs Dawn

I like Aemon overall, maybe because he comes off as a sweet grandpa type (in my eyes.) But I agree with you too. In fact, the whole "kill the boy and let the man be born" speech never sat well with me. I could always start a separate thread if anyone wants to discuss it.

I think I'll have to add this to my list too, since I forgot about him.. I've tried to be sympathetic towards him but for some reason I can't.

Sorry, Ran

Look, this is the last time I'm responding to you because these arguments/debates are getting ridiculous. Nothing you said has made anyone agree with your own perspective and opinion, and the fact that everyone disagrees with you should probably be telling you something. I don't believe that anything you said is evidence or reason enough to dispute the points I made. Which were reasonable points btw. The Lannisters are disliked, hated, and looked down upon by the citizens of the kingdom with or without the riot. You can argue all day about how hateful citizens would behave, but history shows us that even the most persecuted people will act passively. My grandmother had Jewish relatives who acted passively under Hitler. Who am I to tell them, "well you must not have hated him because you didn't do anything"? I simply don't agree with your logic here, and I strongly doubt that will change. Getting hung up over "hate" vs "strongly dislike" vs "unpopular" isn't worth it to me.

I can see the Bowen defenders coming this way with torches and pitchforks. They're singing about the Starks..

Only tragic character I can think of that I carry 0 sympathy for is Daemon, from F&B. But, tbf, if we had his POV that could change my perspective of him.

Stannis isn't liked by the people of King's Landing either. It is possible to hate both Stannis and the Lannisters. If Stannis' men broke through the gates then the citizens would be the first set of casualties, and potentially victims to plunder. Of course, we know Stannis has a strong sense of discipline with his men, but they're not aware of that. Perhaps not as bad as Tywin letting the Mountain loose in the Riverlands, but I'm sure they weren't keen on finding out. Not to mention it would still take an additional few days for Stannis' men to breech the Red Keep. If Tywin hadn't shown up to the battle, Stannis would have won. But in the eyes of the citizens, Stannis' army blowing through the city potentially meant more carnage against them. With the Tyrells out of the picture, they had the option to risk being plundered and harmed (after opening the gates), or continue to starve under Lannister rule. No one orchestrated the entire riot. What was orchestrated was an incident in the hopes that it would spark a riot. And a riot made sense because the citizens of King's Landing were sick of the Lannisters and Joffrey (the Lannister bastard). Between Tywin's sacking of KL, Joffrey's indifference to the needs of the realm, and Cersei's disdain for everyone who isn't her, her children, her father, or Jaime, the entire city has been a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. If the people's anger was only directed at Tyrion, then the plot's uninvolved parties (which were the majority of the riot) would have focused on him instead. There was anger directed specifically at every Lannister, and Joffrey. I understand that the numbers make your solution out to be a no-brainer, but that's not the case. You're expecting hundreds of thousands of people who are inexperienced in the art of warfare, don't know how to use swords, lack the proper equipment for battle, to form a plan that would get them past the thousands of City Watch men, Lannister household guards, and break into the Red Keep? It wouldn't work out so simply, and the end result would not favor the citizens. We wonder why the slaves, who greatly outnumber the masters, in Essos didn't rise up against the slavers much sooner? Whatever the odds are, the inexperienced party will inevitably suffer greatly, and the chances of them winning aren't as likely as they may appear. When you're starving, you're both physically and mentally weak. Add that to having no suitable weapons, no armor, no knowledge of warfare strategies, no military discipline, etc.

Oh good grief, fine. Joffrey the non-Lannister "bastard, bastard monster" and Cersei the "whore, brotherfucker" are only disliked, whilst Tyrion is hated actually because he's ugly.

Do the Northern Mountain Clans not practice this? I can't recall, but they have good reason to train their women to fight. And for some reason, I've always pictured Arya Flint as a shieldmaiden.

No matter who the people blame, the Lannisters are well hated in KL. All of them, including Joffrey.

Tywin is pretty ruthless, and I don't believe he cared whether Elia lived or died. If he did, he would have given the Mountain specific instructions about his wish to keep her alive. Killing her children alone would still be enough to get a rise out of the Martells, even if she lived. The question is, would Robert have kept her as a hostage or let her return home? Tywin had already played a major game of risk by sacking KL, why not add the Martells to the list of people who loathe the Lannisters? I think we're about to see both decisions come back to bite the remaining Lannisters in the ass.

I think so, I know people have been charged for BDSM related manslaughter/homicide here in the US. I think most cases, if not every case, has an expert witness who assists at the trial. 2nd degree seems the most fitting for this.

So in our world, that could be seen as second-degree murder. Extreme indifference to human life falls under that category, but I would argue that Cersei and Lancel go even further than that based off their intentions. If the intent is murder/death, then that changes everything. We know Lancel and Cersei intended for Robert to die. If you encourage drunk driving in the hopes of the victim's death, then you are absolutely responsible for whatever catastrophe follows. The problem is whether the law can prove it or not. You can't minimize such an atrocious act to "asshole behavior". Another category to second-degree murder is attempting bodily harm that goes wrong and results in one's death.

Sansa likes Joffrey? Even after he had her beaten and stripped in court, threatened to rape her, forced her to look at her father's and septa's heads on spikes, and taunted her about how he would murder her brother? I must have missed the part where she found that attractive.

I'm selling tickets for front row seats to the beheading. 15 copper pennies, and I'll have no haggling.