GrimTuesday

The indifference towards Palestinian lives is so fucking gross. The world was rightly disgusted and outraged at the murder of innocent Israelis, but the reality is that Israel has long since bypassed a proportional response. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying that Israel said it was Hamas infrastructure and therefore is ok is being complicate in genocide. One day, when it's safe, when there's no personal downside to calling a thing what it is, when it's too late to hold anyone accountable, everyone will have always been against this.

To put it simply, did the news about the videos that journalist were shown change my mind? No, because there was never a doubt in my mind that atrocities were committed by Hamas fighters, though I have questioned the legitimacy of specific claims that were presented with no independent confirmation, especially ones that feed into know tropes used to vilify Muslims. It also does not change my views on the conflict as a whole, because Israel remains an Apartheid state which requires violence in its maintenance and we shouldn't be surprised to see a certain level of inhumane blood lust when the oppressed have the opportunity to strike back. This of course only explains the actions of the Hamas terrorists, it does not excuse or justify it because there is no justification for crimes such as those that Hamas fighters committed. As for the idea that Israel selectively edited it, we know that Israel is going to present the worst of the worst of it for propaganda (as always, I use this in a neutral way) purposes, that is just how these things work. As for the veracity aspect of things, anyone who is questioning about this is being silly because to deny it is to deny reality. These things happened, it is undeniable and to say otherwise is the same as the Israeli claims of "telegentically dead" Palestinian children. Of course we also know from first hand accounts that some who were held by Hamas were treated (relatively) humanely, or at least as humanely as one can when holding someone at gun point. The Israeli government is not going to promote that because they don't want to humanize the Palestinians in fact, I know of one instance where an interview has been actively censored and was removed, though a re-upload can be found here. It remains incumbent on both sides to recognize the humanity of the other, but that can't happen until Israel ceases it's bombardment and doesn't commit to further escalation, and Hamas returns the hostages they took.

The problem with comparing it with Ireland is that the British have all but left, with the exception of North Ireland, so they are living in a post colonial society. Palestine is basically where the Irish were in the 1800's, hopelessly outmatched, but still involved in a violent struggle against their colonial oppressors, but at this point, they have gained their independence and after a lot of blood shed and tragedy, the wounds of the past are slowly healing. There is a quote by Malcolm X that I feel is particularly applicable here "If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made.. And they won't even admit the knife is there." The healing can not begin until the knife is removed entirely, and only one side can do that. Of course, in this case one side has a big knife buried deep into the other and the other side has a butter knife that they are repeatedly stabbing the other with, hurting them, yes, even sometimes drawing blood but never able to grievously wound them. Both sides need to stop, but one side is clearly the one causing the most damage and creating the situation where in the other side feels they have to retaliate.

When the Ukrainian war kicked off, countries were throwing their doors open to take in those fleeing from Russia's bombing and invasion. There were those who cried foul not because they had a problem with taking in refugees, but rather because of how readily white refugees are taken in vs brown and black refugees. Now the opportunity has been presented to these governments to prove us wrong and to throw open their arms to take in the people who are fleeing an ethnic cleansing and merciless bombing campaign, and people like the British Immigration Minister out here saying it's premature to talk about accepting refugees. I know some of you all don't like seeing Twitter links, but it's the BBC These people don't see Palestinians fleeing for their lives as refugees, they see them as refuse to be turned away or discarded. And before anyone say that they were talking about Israelis as well, those carrying an Israeli passport have visa free travel to 163 countries including the US, all of Europe and tons of other generally desirable places to wait out the conflict if thy so choose to do so. Palestinian passport holders have 12, none of which I would consider to be high on the desirability scale, especially considering that pretty much once they leave, they have no right to return once the conflict is over.

I'm simply pointing out that just because one is Jewish doesn't give them a monopoly on choosing who is and isn't Jewish enough, or invalidating their Jewishness because they hold an opposing view point. It's like saying right wing evangelicals saying that because someone is pro choice they're obviously not a christian, or that they're tokenizing themselves to fit in. The fact is that not everyone agrees within any given group, you can have your definition of Jewishness, I'm communicating what I hear from Jews that I know and those who I don't know but do respect value their perspective who do not adhere to the Zionist philosophy. Ben Shapiro regularly talks about how liberal Jews are "Jews In Name Only" (I'm not going to use the acronym because it feels like something rapidly approaching racial slur territory), Does he decide who is Jewish? Do you? Does Bernie Sanders? Does Norman Finklestien? what about Itimar Ben Gavier or Bezalel Smotrich? Does Netanyahu get to pick and choose whose perspective is Jewish enough? It is certainly not my place to say, I'm not Jewish, but don't pretend just because you have a different view means that you're the be all end all of Jewishness. Client state, sure, but they're not a proxy for Iran, that would imply that Iran wields a significant amout of control over Hamas, which as we've seen from the events of last week, there is no evidence that Iran knew that was going to happen, and in fact have actively denied having a hand in it. Is Iran mad it happened, probably not, but they're not the ones calling the shots.

Jews have always been at the forefront of basically every single social justice and anti-racist movement in history, to pretend that anti-Zionist Jews are somehow antithetical to the majority of Jews is just ignoring a significant part of Jewish history and activism. There has been a diversity of thought on Zionism since well before the prospect of an actual Jewish State began. The issue with the guy in the video is he starts talking about shit like how Hamas is somehow just a puppet of Iran, or that they're trying to start a global caliphate that somehow threatens the world. While they certainly have certain goals that align with Iran and they do receive a significant amount of backing, Hamas is still an organic movement that has goals specifically regarding Palestine. This is also why the global caliphate thing is brain dead, their focus is Israel, they do not have an operation that is pursuing global domination.

I'm getting big time Yeonmi Park energy from that guy. Not saying that he is necessarily lying about everything, there is always a kernel of truth there, but instead that he is leveraging his status as a Palestinian with a connection with Hamas to make money off dumb asses who will swallow even the most insane shit.

I present to you, the only Democracy in the Middle East and a bastion of western liberalism. Gov’t approves emergency regulations that could pave way to closing Al Jazeera offices (Times of Israel) Dozens of Israelis arrested for social media posts defending Gaza, advocates say (The Forward)

To go back to the conversation about Gazans overthrowing Hamas, I think people don't understand anything other than living in the Imperial core. To throw off a government is not an easy thing to do, in part because they generally have more guns and trained fighters than you, and also because of internal complications. When you ring your hands about Gazans choosing Hamas over Fatah/the PA, you have to understand that the people of Gaza can see what happens in the West Bank, where the PA has basically become a puppet for the Israeli government. Rather than protect its people, the PA collaborates with the IDF and hands over Palestinians rather than protecting them from the violence of the Israeli state. What it comes down to is similar to what we see in Turkey, where as much as many dislike Erdoğan, many Turks would rather him than Fethullah Gulen because Gulen is a CIA plant. It's better to go with the person who you feel is looking out for your interests, even if that is not going to lead a better life (Not that Gulen would be better than Erdoğan) or a less brutal government, but because at least you know that when the chips are down, in many people's eyes, they're not serving another master. I also saw someone say that Hamas violently threw Fatah/The PA out of Gaza. While it is true there was something of a civil war and that Hamas won, that was not a conflict that was started by Hamas. The US under the Bush Administration had called for elections in Gaza despite the warnings from Fatah that they were not prepared and would almost certainly lose. The Bush Administration being the Bush Administration ignored this and kept on pushing for it. Of Course as we all know, Fatah got wiped and instead of accepting it and moving on with the situation they created the US armed Fatah and tried to take it back by force. That is what cause the civil war in Gaza.

I'm going to be honest, there is basically nothing Israel could say that would make me believe they didn't do it. As far as I'm concerned, they have zero credibility and until a third party that doesn't have a vested interest in carrying water for them does an investigation that definitively clears them. nothing they say on this topic can be trusted. Remember when they claimed to have video proof that they didn't murder Shireen Abu Akleh and that ended up being a load of crap? I fully expect this will end up being something similar.

For the record, one strike against Israel's claims that it was Hamas is the fact that Israel already bombed part of that exact same hospital on Saturday. https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

It's not even just people looking for outrage, it is people who are financially incentivized to do so. Twitter is paying people to drive engagement, and posing bullshit and rage bait is one of the best ways to go about it.

That is verified as far as I know, though the one that has been going around from facebook that purports to be an IDF page that said they euthanized everyone at the hospital to give them a painless death is dubious at best and more likely than not a troll account.

There is a fake Al-Jazeera journalist claiming to have proof it was Hamas who hit the hospital who actually got retweeted by a number of real journalist who apparently didn't bother to check and see if it was real. If only we had some way to tell who was real and who was fake, Maybe Elon could find a revolutionary way to verify the legitimacy of users. A rather amusing and immediately disqualify tweet from earlier today.

This is what a JDAM sounds like, it is almost identical to what the strike in Gaza sounds like. Not conclusive by any means, but certainty seems to poke a big hole on Israel's narrative. From what I understand JDAM is just a targeting/guidance system that turns "dumb bombs" into smart bombs.

My read on that is meaning those who aren't considered prisoners of war which would be IDF soldiers and members of the police force. I remember hearing a Hamas spokesman say the same thing yesterday so presumably that it what they are saying. Before anyone asks, I don't remember if it was on a British, American, or French interview (it was one of those three) so I don't have a link.

This is the cartoon in question, which is apparently a reference to this cartoon of LBJ during the Vietnam war.

Of course they clam the land between the river to the sea, that is the land that belonged to the people of Palestine. As for the right of return, Israel offers the right of return to people who, in most cases, have no ties to that land for centuries outside of a religious one. Meanwhile the Nakba was 75 years ago. The inception of the Israeli state is one of displacement, it is only justified that Palestinians be offered the opportunity to live in the lands they were driven out of within living human memory.

You are aware that Hamas no long holds to that charter, right? They created a new one in 2017 that is significantly more moderate. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full Not saying they're not antisemitic or anything like like, that, but if we're going to cite Hamas' charter, lets cite the one they currently claim to abide by.

Israel has released hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for captured IDF soldiers, this is something that has happened with some regularity in the past. But I guess you should tell the families of those who are being held in Gaza that their loved ones have to die. Let's stop pretending that Hamas can be eliminated through military means other than actually going full genocide. For every Hamas fighter that they kill, they will create two future members of Hamas or an even more radical group. Hamas isn't just a fighting force, it is part of an idea, the idea of Palestinian freedom and Israel will never be able to stamp that out until there is not a single Palestinian drawing breath anywhere in the world. Ok, so now the hostages are dead, congratulations, we are no closer to peace and have only hurt the families of those who have been murdered by Hamas. The solution here isn't to just make it pointless to take hostages, it is to address the reason why hostages are being taken. These are not acts of god, this is the result of decades of choices on both sides that have perpetuated a cycle of violence that we are seeing the result of now.

All this assumes that the IDF has to take the actions that endanger the hostages. Israel can choose to not go all cowboy, they can choose to enter into negotiations, they don't have to cut off the supplies that create the conditions that might cause Hamas to execute the hostages. We are talking about this shit as if every step of the way is inevitable or some kind of act of god, and that is just isn't actually how it is. Israel is making choices that have consequences (as did Hamas) and you can't pretend they don't have agency here. None of this absolves Hamas of the crimes they have committed or from the fact that they put these people in peril by taking them hostage, they too have exercised their agency and people have suffered for it, but this is the reality that we have to operate from. Israel's actions determine what happens from here, and if the hostages die, it is at least partly because of how Israel reacted.

Oh please, if Hamas wanted to kill them they would have killed the hostages when they attacked Israel proper. The entire point of taking hostages is to extract something or to protect yourself from reprisals, killing them is entirely counter productive. At this point, Israeli bombing is more of a danger to these hostages than Hamas is. THis is not to say that they are being treated well, just that this idea that we should just assume they are already as good as dead is dumb and fails to understand the logic of Hamas's actions in favor of just demonizing them as complete monsters devoid of humanity.

I would also say that there is a much higher likelihood of Israel using it's nuclear weapons against Iran than Russia using them against Ukraine. They have been posturing against Iran in a very hawkish manner for a long ass time and given the fact that Iran is not a nuclear power, they do not have to worry about a second strike situation. It would give Israel the excuse it has been looking for for a long time to strike directly at Iran. I also don't think Russia would respond in a nuclear fashion even if they are aligned at the moment, so the risk of more nukes flying is pretty low.

Israel's ability to do this vs America's ability to do this are completely different. If America were to take the actions that Israel takes, it would be an act of war, when Israel does it, it is simply striking against a terrorist organization. Hamas is a governing organization when it is convenient to shift the blame to them for Palestinian immiseration and are a terrorist group when Israel decides it is time to "mow the lawn".

This is where you are failing to understand the reality on the ground, because as we have seen in the last few days, at any time, Israel can and will exert their power over Gaza in such a way that renders anything that Hamas may be doing that resembles governmental functions completely irrelevant. You can say that Hamas is the governing body of Gaza and I don't really have a problem with that, but that authority extends exactly as far as Israel deems it permissible, and if Israel decides they have surpassed that, they are able to strike them down with prejudice.