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Posts posted by HaeSuse

  1. 4 hours ago, Tianzi said:

    I judge him mostly by his deeds.

    And I've said that he is gray. And that overall I like him.

    But I've also said that I think his habit of choosing to say something sexual related when he wants to insult women - whether or not the act of insult itself is justified - reflects badly on him.

    And yes, if you know that the woman in question will be offended and put off, it's clearly a sexual harassment and that's your damn intent in this case.

    Then we can say that what Tysha broke Tywin restored, because following that incident Tyrion still has a mindset of a nobleman (although more empathetic than most in some aspects).

    If anyone claims he's black or white, then they missed the boat. He's clearly gray as gray can be. I agree. To your second point I'd say, he equally makes sexual jokes to/about men. It's not sexism, then, just crassness. Right? And is being crass so bad, when placed in the moral cosmic scales? Nah. I tend to actually like it. Probably because I myself am crass. I see that. I'm not blind to it. 


    And, in your eyes, is it sexual harassment when he makes equally crude jokes about men? Or is it only so when it's the opposite sex? What if he was gay? Would it only be sexual harassment then, if it was towards men? This also is as gray as gray comes. 


    If I make a joke about your religion, is is religious harassment? About your worldview is it worldview harassment?


    Quoting the great Salman Rushdie: “Nobody has the right to not be offended. That right doesn't exist in any declaration I have ever read. If you are offended it is your problem, and frankly lots of things offend lots of people."


    Same goes here. If such crude jokes offend you, and someone says them, don't be around them. Easy as pie. And in places where you CAN'T avoid them (like work) there are almost always protections in place. And when being improperly imprisoned for something you didn't do, I think we can cut someone some slack for taking an "offensive" tact toward their captor/abuser/torturer/accuser. 

  2. 5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

    I find the arguments far more interesting than the poster's background, as that starts to lean to Ad Hominem fallacies, where people hope to dismiss someone's arguments because of who they are than the argument by its own merrits or faults.


    I agree, wholeheartedly! However, let's say that it gets down to "Oh. Em. Gee. So-and-so made a rude comment to such-and-such!" and some people find that very thing repulsive, utterly repugnant, and despicable. And some people say "Wut? How is that bad?"

    Then, I find it interesting the demographics and background of the people who side one way, or side the other. No different than politics. Some people think it's impossible to understand why someone would want to pay more taxes, in order to give more people health care. Some other people think it's morally repugnant to NOT want to do so. Is there a moral prerogative there? I think there is, personally. But guess what, the people on the other side of the fence do, too. No one on either side of that battle thinks "I'm a terrible person for believing what I believe". If anything, they think that about the OTHER side.

    But it's still interesting to note specific demographic features of either side of that argument. Why would it not be? And, if it wasn't interesting, then the 7 trillion articles, tweets, podcasts, news reels, etc wouldn't exist.

    Is it the be all end all to say... "the education level of side A is X, and the education of level of side B is Y"? Nope. But is it interesting? You betcha!

  3. 17 hours ago, Sigella said:

    1 Rape, murder and torture happen as well - and its still not ok. She did not want to do it and he still made her, it doesn't get moral any way you turn it, or which circumstances you apply it to.

    2 Being disinherited doesn't mean as much when you're on good terms with the other heir. Same as 1.

    3 I'm assuming her family treated her better, and a great deal of small-folk too.

    4 Comparing to others doesn't matter.

    5 Point is he was actively shaming her. Not ok.

    6 4


    1) I never said it was moral. Honestly, if you look at 90% of the actions in the books, they aren't MORAL. So what? I said judge him versus his peers. And if you do, he looks like a gallant white knight.

    2) Jamie has sworn off his inheritance time and time again. Cersei is the heir, once Tywin disavows Tyrion's rights. And he's on great terms with his sweet sister, eh?

    3) Family, sure. Small-folk, maybe? You'd have to ask Penny.

    4) Comparing to others is what I'm doing. It matters. It always matters. If you take any of the characters, and compare them to modern times, they look archaic, immoral, and awful. Everything has to be looked at through the lenses of a medieval, lords, ladies and serfs setting. Elsewise, what are you even doing? Even the most honorable, noble, of the books, looks silly, through a modern, educated, intelligent person's eyes. Ned is OH SO NOBLE, for killing Lady! (I love Ned, FYI. This is just some devil's advocacy). Dany is SO incredibly sweet and kind for saving MMD! No. They did much better than their forebears, and did their best to better the world, where they could. It's all relative. You must compare. 

    5) And she was actively falsely imprisoning him on the word of her self professed lunatic of a sister. Not even that, but a raven's word of her lunatic sister. And she even had internal doubts that he did it. But... still... marched him to his almost certain death. That GRRM wrote a nice little Deus Ex Machina in to save the Imp, doesn't relieve Cat of her guilt in her bullshit deeds. And that's 1000 times worse than making a jape such as that. He didn't even say anything truly nasty, as he could've. "I'm willing if she's willing". I can't believe that's even a topic of discussion here. No worries.

    6) Yeah, I get it. It's horrible to compare versus others. Yup. Lunacy.

  4. 17 hours ago, Tianzi said:

    True, but

    1. He was thirteen.

    2. Gotta be cynical here - he had to notice he wouldn't be madly desired by women, and he points out that Tysha was the girl  who loved him even though he didn't think it's possible.

    Did it? Again, Shae, he treated her like he owned her. And about the caste system - Penny has to instruct him how to act to survive around 'tall people' because Tywin used to call them 'smallfolk' and that's the world Tyrion lived in, being a noble through and through (though having humanity towards lower social castes, which isn't the case with all nobles).

    Been and heard worse, so what? Still would consider someone who says those kinds of things at least a bit of douchebag and I'm not any kind of an exception here.

    Catelyn Stark on the other hand probably didn't go to too many bars and is a lady, so yeah, it's even more of a douchebaggery. (not that I'm particularly hung up on that Tyrion's comment, it's one of the less offensive ones, but it fits the pattern of his habit of verbal sexual harassment).


    When I say his very first romantic endeavor, I mean Tysha, and yes, it clearly broke the caste system. She was, by all accounts, an absolute commoner. The smallest of smallfolk.


    And I just don't see talk like that as "harassment". In a workplace? I get it. I would never. Not in a million years. But out'n'about? When the topic is already being bandied about by everyone around you? Meh. There are plenty of examples even in the books, of women, highborn, who did not get offended by such talk. Some did get offended by such talk. Was it crude and rude? Yes, you'll get no argument from me there. Did he know Cat would be offended and put off by it? He sure did. That's part of his driving reason in saying it. Was he improperly imprisoned by her, being captured at swordpoint for something he didn't do? Ayup. I cut him some slack there, for sure. And anyway, words are wind. Judge him on his deeds. Of which, he certainly is gray, not white or black. I've said that, too.

  5. 50 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

    I'll check 4 quotes when back home

    yes,so. One example is the rule now. Perhaps check up on the more general statistics than use one example to then wrongly believe it's the rule

    Not claiming it's the rule. Claiming it's beyond out of the question, nor is it truly even frowned upon. And I'm asking for proof of your claim. I give you my proof from the books:


    • Exhibit A: The entire Lannister family thinks it's fine. Or, at least, Tywin does, and then everyone follows him, in fear of his wroth. Not that they are scions of ethics and morality. 
    • Exhibit B: Dany is pregnant with The Stallion Who Mounts The World at 14 years old. Again, not that the Dothraki are scions of Westerosi versions of ethics or morals either. But each example adds to the evidence, methinks.
    • Exhibit C: Chapter 28 of aSoS. During the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa, Joffrey wants a bedding. No one spoke up. We didn't exactly see the responses of the crowd, but no vocal gasps, or horrified responses were noted. Which GRRM would've made a point of showing us, I think, if they had occurred.

    That's all I've got right now. A Search of Ice and Fire isn't loading properly for me now, and the books aren't at hand.

  6. 34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

    Anyone who's in his 30s has experienced failure, heartbreak, betrayal, deep loss, shame, helplessness, etc..

    we have a saying: every house carries a cross. No, my life certainly was never a straight arrow. 

    This has little to do with inexperience, but with integrity, self-inspection or reflection. I find those traits important in an adult. Because you need them to learn from mistakes. Also I just don't easily wish ill on people, nowhere near as tyrion does. 

    I don't consider him a monster, but his resentful thoughts either disgust me or annoy me. He's not my fav POV at all. 

    Sure, as I said, I know no one is free of trouble and pain. And I meant it as a broad question. Your response is good, and contributes. Thank you for it. But as you said to me one post above, a single example does not a statistic make. 

  7. I wonder.... How many of the Tyrion detractors have gone through such trials and tribulations themselves. What is the personal story arc of each Tyrion hater, and each Tyrion lover, and each Tyrion "understander" (neither loving nor hating, but getting him, nonetheless). 


    I'm a lover. He's my favorite, and was from the get go. And I've had a helluva life. Countless trials and tribulations, from as humbling and devastating as the ones Job experienced in the Bible, to as commonplace and understandable as the ones everyone experiences. More near-death experiences than I can remember, without really sitting down and going through them all, giving 100% effort over several hours of dedicated soul wracking. Been behind bars several times. Fathered multiple children. Adopted another. Married. Separated. Divorced. More drunken moronic experiences than I care to recount. Alcoholism. Dealing with being an atheist in a family of devout Christians (all atheists are bastards in their Christian parents' eyes). Deaths everywhere. Suicides galore. Lost two people who I would've called best-friend at the time, to drug overdose and suicide. Estranged siblings. Siblings in prison for multiple years. Cancer in multiple immediate family members. Financial devastation, financial success. A rollercoaster of a life. I've loved it. But, I just wonder. Are most of Tyrion's lovers, folks who, like me, have experienced a lot of ups and downs and arounds? Are most of his haters people who've had a more arrow straight path from point A to point B? (I know that no life is devoid of trials and tribulations. I also know that some are far more so than others).


    Also, are his haters more religious? Are his lovers less religious? 

    These things intrigue me.


    Here's to you, Giant of Lannister. May your roads be paved and clean, may your trials and tribulations make you grow (not break you down), may your women truly appreciate you, may your wine be strong and red, and may someone, someday, bear you beautiful children you can raise and love! 



  8. 13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

    Actually that is a false assertion. Most men would wait until their wife is older. The books mention how girls as young as Sansa may end up being married to an older man, but that the consummation of it is actually postponed until she's older... and for very good reasons. The risk of childbirth mortality is enormous with a girl that young, because she's not yet fully developed physically - hips not yet wide enough. Plenty of marriages in real history at the age of 13-14 within the highest ranks of the nobility, but the first child is often not reported to being born until the girl is about 17, and thus the actual consummation was postponed until around 16-17 years old.

    So, no, both historcally and according to the books MOST husbands would wait several years before actually bedding Sansa. It's just Tywin who wants to force the consummation. That's because Tywin doesn't care whether Sansa lives or dies in childbirth. In fact, he likely prefers Sansa to die soon. All he needs is Tyrion with a trueborn child from a Stark.

    No, it doesn't. It does say what you're saying, but it's in reference to girls who haven't flowered yet. Give us quotes. And anyway, Tywin was the one demanding he put a son on her. Not Tyrion. Tyrion objected on multiple occasions. 


    Henry VII's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort was 14 when she gave birth to him. 

  9. 14 hours ago, Tianzi said:

    Not really, at least if the woman in question isn't close to you, obviously interested in you or, well, is someone's wife.

    Chastity-obsessed Westeros? Talking this way to a highborn lady? Please.

    Both Tyrion and Dany are assholes more often than it's necessary and their 'compassionate' acts sometimes boil down to 'I want to feel good about myself and have people smile at me.'

    Have you been to bars? It's been a few years for me, since I got married and made 4 little whelps. But I spent quite a lot of time in them, before that. This would have been considered one of the least offensive or off-putting things said in them. Married or not. And even in the absolute worst light you can shine on it, it's a jape.

  10. 14 hours ago, Tianzi said:

    a) whores are the group of people who treat him the best, so it's not like it's really born from his respect to women. Actually a lot of his kindness to women is quite mercenary too, hoping to win their favours, opening their legs and a smile.


    This only became his manner after the event with Tysha. Remember, he married a common girl. That's not "women are wives", and not "people belong in the social caste". His very first romantic endeavor broke both the whore systems and the caste systems, in one fell swoop. And it is the one thing he thinks of the most, now. Tyrion was broken by his father and brother, and their "sharp lesson". He has a chance to put the pieces back together. 

  11. 4 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

    Hmmmm... I could have sworn I was being logical. :D

    And I'm going to be even more logical and maintain that your scenario above has no textual support, so it kinda falls flat as an example. It's pretty clear from the text why Tyrion killed her.

    And you didn't address the other examples I gave of lack of compassion by Tyrion (other examples toward Shae, toward Masha Heddle the innkeeper) and Sweetsunray's example of Tyrion's bitter thoughts toward Benjen Stark, who had the effrontery to offer Tyrion a fur blanket to keep warm.

    Tyrion's selfishness and self-centeredness isn't limited to Shae.

    But, each to his own. I personally draw a heavy line between Tyrion's actions being "understandable" and Tyrion's actions being "justifiable". Other people don't. That's their (and my) prerogative. :cheers:

    Do you not believe that Shae was intelligent enough to know how dangerous the game she played was?


    And to the other examples... (I know you've chosen to ignore my posts, and are responding to zandru).... A cold shoulder to the dead isn't so bad in the grand scheme of things, is it? Should he have dismounted, and said a prayer over her corpse? Bitter thoughts toward a house that has always been your rival? Sounds more like a napoleon/little-man complex, than a slight on his honor or compassion. And other things toward Shae? Again, she was playing a game, he was playing a game.


    Should Tyrion have been shortened by a head, are you claiming we should applaud Shae for her ability to win at her game? Congratulate her on landing in a "real" Lannister's bed, instead of her "Giant of Lannister's" bed? Lend her a shoulder to cry on when she reflects on her lies in court? She is as gray as Tyrion is, and their story is horribly intertwined. She killed him. He killed her. He just happened to have a Jamie Lannister to save him, and she did not.

    Much love. I agree 100% with your assessment that he is understandable, but at times unforgivable. And I hope his arc points upwards, not down.

  12. 8 minutes ago, zandru said:

    Well, let's go back to being logical. Suppose Tyrion had "compassionately" convinced himself that Shae's lies in court which condemned him to die were totally forgivable, because what choice did she have, anyway? So he finds her in good old dad's bed, says "hi! where's my old man?" and proceeds toward the privy. Does anyone doubt that Shae would have summoned the guards, raised the alarm? And if Tyrion wasn't killed on the spot, he'd be taken away for extensive torture and Tywin would have been unhurt and coldly vengeful, as is his wont.

    Tyrion may or may not have thought it through what it would mean to leave Shae in bed and safe - but there's no question that, if he had, he'd have died. And his empathy and compassion would have killed him. That, and his father's guards.

    Also a good point. However, I still say, Shae was no moron. She knew the danger of the game she played as well as Tyrion the danger of the game he played. It's like in the illegal drug business in modern America. If you are buying bulk drugs from a bulk drug dealer, and slangin', you've bought into the game. You have to check your compassion at the door, in a lot of situations. That, or die, and die horribly, and early. It's the same playing the Game of Thrones. Or playing the Whore of King's Landing. If you have consciously decided to be in one of those games, you can try to be compassionate as much as possible, where possible, when possible. But if you want to remain in the game, alive, there will be times when you must eschew that compassion for cold, calculated cruelty. 

    It's no different than Dany offering safe passage for that one dude, then threatening him with Dragons. Or "buying" unsullied with a dragon, and then burning the sellers alive, and taking everything, and leaving them nothing. Or burning the HotD. Or killing a master for each dead child she found. Or considering herself "compassionate" for "saving a few women from rape", after her Khalesar murdered, mutilated, ravaged and razed an entire city of lamb-men. She is compassionate.... as long as you allow for her circumstances, her situation, the era, the people, and the relative comparison to others around her.


    I'm not trying to get into a "lets compare the virtues and vices of Tyrion and Danerys" battle. I'm just saying that when weighing either of their goods vs either of their bads, we must take into account set, setting, circumstance, society, norms, backgrounds, etc. And I think that both come out well ahead of their peers, all things being equal.

  13. 15 hours ago, zandru said:

    Thanks for adding this! A lot of people apparently hate the Penny character because they think she's "boring." Nonsense! As you pointed out, she brings Tyrion back to life. It's not just him now. Tyrion even takes Jorah Mormont under his wing, and considering how Jorah has mistreated him, that's a pretty big thing, even if you assume Tyrion is only doing it because he hopes to take advantage of Mormont's martial abilities. If the Khaleesi had seen the way Mormont behaved when he was around Tyrion, she'd have never loved her old bear.

    Penny gives Tyrion an inside look of what it's like to be a dwarf in society, but as a way of trying to help him fit in, not because she's whining or demanding sympathy. He'd always thought he was ill treated - but in reality, he had no idea. These experiences are helping to snap Tyrion out of his suicidal alcoholic haze and bringing back the highly educated, clever dwarf we came to know in Game of Thrones.

    And hopefully, they can be his saving grace and redemption.  I'd hate to see his arc continue downwards. There is time yet left for him to end on top, and I sure hope he does.

  14. 23 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

    Let's see. It's a medieval society. You've just reluctantly gotten married to a girl flowered, who also didn't want to wed. Such marriages are common. Her age is not uncommon.The girl is shy  and traumatized, but you are hoping she can accept you for the good you may do for her, and the alliance you hope to make, and accept your ugly appearance. She is a beauty and all the norms and laws say that you can bed her willing or no, and ,in fact, it's your duty to your family, society, and religion. Most of your experience is with whores. You ask your wife to take off her clothes, perhaps hoping she has a shred of curiosity or good spirits. You are turned on. She is not. You try to appeal to reason, and she tells you it's hopeless. In spite of intense motivation, you leave her alone.

    He's a monster! /sarcasm

  15. 1 hour ago, Sigella said:

    1 Making a a 12-13 year old girl undress in front of him and then exposing himself is ok behaviour? Really?

    2 What he helped the guards do to Tysha is not really ok either.

    3 He doesn't really treat her very good and we could argue that he used her to survive life as a poor unimportant dwarf.

    4 No but he beds with slaves and his behaviour towards them is not ok either.

    5 The way he shamed Cat on the Highroad + "I'm willing if she is".

    6 The way he treats whores/slaves in Essos. Its just too offensive to be made up for with a personal history of being a good tipper.


    Its funny how we all read stuff so very different, its quite fascinating. :)


    1) 12-13 year old girls were expected to marry and (gasp), yes, undress in front of their husbands, in this fictional realm. Not to mention, in our own real realm, during medieval (and even much more recent than that) era. There are still places on earth where this is 100% normal and expected. Is it okay? A different question entirely. My statement was that he compares favorably to the rest of westeros. Which he does. Since any other husband would have demanded her maidenhead. He did not. Is that not better? Are you claiming he would have been more "good" to demand she go through with it?

    2) No it wasn't. He could've disinherited himself on the spot by defying his father. I agree. But to hold that entirely against him is absurd. That's my point. He could've excused himself from Westeros, the Lannister family, his friends, his brother, and everything he knew, and "have done the right thing". But, man, really? How many children would've done differently, given the same circumstances? Practically none. Maybe in the end, exactly none.

    3) I'm not saying he treated Penny well. I'm saying he treated her better than everyone else who came into contact with her. Again, over and over, I'm not saying he's a saint. I'm saying, compare him to everyone else put in the same situation, and he comes out reasonably well in the balance. No one else even thinks Penny deserves thought, much less compassion, measured interactions, and intimacy.

    4) Agreed. Again, same thing. Compare him to the rest of Essos, since that's where it is happening, and how does he look? Down right saintly.

    5) Really? "I'm willing if she is?" This is something that would even go unnoticed today, in real Earth life. Matter of fact, more so, than medieval times. Go to a bar. You'll hear it, or something similar 1000 times a night. Is it okay? That's up to each individual. But to claim that a man shouldn't make explicit jokes with women, is backwards and insane.

    6) Is it right? No. What other option does he have? Nothing left for him in Westeros. And in Essos, he is doing as Essos-ians do, as it were. Not good. I agree. 100%. But compared to the societal norm? He's practically Bernie Sanders rolled into Mohatma Gandhi. 

  16. 3 hours ago, zandru said:

    Now, wait a minute! Tyrion was fine with Shae - until she perjured herself in court to testify against him, also putting out false tales designed to shame him publically. Her testimony got Tyrion a big laugh from the assembled court, and not the good kind. Tyrion was enraged that, after all he'd tried to do for her (at least, in his own mind) she had betrayed him. Moreover, her "testimony" was conclusive for giving him a death sentence. And THEN, after an escape facilitated by his beloved older brother Jaime, who confessed that the love of Tyrion's life really was his love, and not a hired whore, but their father had made Jaime tell Tyrion that lie ... Tyrion finds Shae literally in his own sanctimonious whore-hating father's bed and wearing his "Hand" necklace, no less.

    This wasn't a coldly calculated murder. It was the classic "crime of passion" in which Tyrion, enraged beyond thought and control, killed his former lover. He's calmer by the time he kills his father.

    Killing Shae was not at all typical behavior for Tyrion. It doesn't reveal much about his "compassion" or his "character"; it seems pretty understandable, although still wrong.

    This. Precisely. Still a crime. Still not to be admired or praised. But, wholly understandable and, in my mind, forgivable, when placed in the greater cosmic scales.

  17. 1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

    Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

    His murdering Shae is HUGE. It shows a serious lack of compassion and it shows that lack was always the case with Tyrion. His "compassion" was surface-level all along and the "wholly different" way her treated her was to make her pretend that they were in a loving relationship, that other men wouldn't bother trying to do because they understand the true nature of the "relationship" between a whore and her client.

    The only thing Shae did wrong was to finally shatter Tyrion's own illusions about his own compassion, to make as clear as possible to him that she always was who she was, not who he imagined she was. That's what got her killed: Tyrion's lack of compassion toward her.


    Shae also lied in front of 'gods and men', knowing that it would get Tyrion killed, and knowing the truth that he didn't do it, and knowing that she could potentially save him from his fate. Sure, it was under threat of pain, torture and death. But, killing someone who lied in court, directly leading to your own death sentence, ain't half bad. Do we, as a modern society, condemn the man who kills his daughter's rapist, and say "he shouldn't have done it"? Sure. But don't we also say ".... but, gods be good, I'd probably have done the same."? And that's only touching on the false condemnation and perjury. We could also discuss that she's now sleeping with his own father, the man who is responsible for having raised Tyrion. The same father who emotionally abused him his entire life, and who made a point of chiding, deriding, chastising and punishing (brutally, no less) Tyrion over his own taste for a woman's pleasures. And we could also toss into the scales of justice the fact that Tyrion had bent over backwards, risking is own hide time and time again, trying to hide Shae's identity, and protect her from Cersei's and Tywin's ire and long lashing whips.


    I'm sorry, but while I agree that killing Shae was wrong, I don't find it as black and white as you do. This was not Lincoln and Booth. This was a thousand shades of gray, as GRRM always makes everything in his books. Tyrion was delusional about the nature of whores. You are right. And he is to blame, as is Jamie and Tywin, with their little Tysha charade. This is quite possibly the defining characteristic of the character. Perhaps it would've been "kinder" (and maybe less "misogynistic"?) to just take her into his tent that first night, have his way with her, pay her, and then kick her out. But would she have agreed? I think not. She knew the game she played was deadly and dangerous. And she knew Tyrion had strange perceptions of their relationship. She was not stupid. She was playing the game, as well. 

    Instead, in his own little way, he treated her like a person, not just a whore. He never regarded her as less than high lords and ladies, except in so much as he knew he could never marry her, and retain his Lannister benefits. If he thought for a second he could've married her, kept her as a true and loving wife, removed her from her profession, and remain a player in the game, he would have. He couldn't though, not while Tywin lived. Not while Cersei lived. And, yes, he was as invested in the game as anyone else, as much as he was loathe to admit it. And so was Shae.

    I appreciate your feminist perspective on it, I do. I'm a card carrying member of NOW, myself, and am raising an amazing young feminist daughter, and 3 amazing young feminist sons. But I just think your views are a little one-sided, and not taking into account the full picture of the man, the woman, the situation and the circumstances. 

  18. 15 hours ago, Tianzi said:

    So what makes him 'less' misogynistic than them?

    I mean sure, he'd shine if compared to Randyll Tarly, but what else?

    1) The way he treated Sansa during their marriage. 

    2) His feelings toward Tysha.

    3) The way he treats Penny.

    4) His lack of feeling that "women should be in the kitchen, barefoot, pregnant, silent".

    5) His interactions with Cat.

    6) Even the way he treats his whores is wholly different and more compassionate than the way other men do. (aside from murdering Shae, of course).

  19. He's my favorite character, so take it all with a grain of salt, I guess...


    1) He is a product of his environment. I know, for one, that if I had been raised by a father who loathed me, blamed me for everything, and openly let the entire world know that he loathed me, I would've turned out much worse than Tyrion. I also believe that, for instance, Ned, Dany, and Jon, would have turned out worse than Tyrion, if put through the same ringer. Not to even mention, having a sister who hates you, living in a world that considers you a monster, etc

    2) He's less of a misogynist than 99% of male Westeros. Even the most high minded, noble, honorable men in the books, consider women to belong at home, married, taking orders, keeping quiet.

    3) I'd have shot Tywin, too. (though I'd like to think I'd have let Shae live.

  20. My guess is that most of it is that they will accept most anyone who wants to join. Who would want to join? I mean, in a fantastical sense, yes it sounds nifty. But, when you get down to it, you have to give up everything. You have to accept being nothing. You have to accept that you may never get to be an actual FM. You have absolutely horrible jobs/tasks/duties to perform in the meantime, which could be years/decades. I'm not saying they'd take anyone and move em up the chain as quickly as possible. But in a role where 99% of applicants will be self-weeded-out before the final goal, you need as large a pool as possible. 

    The iron coin got her special notice, but she probably could have become a trainee, regardless. 

  21. 1 hour ago, Jaak said:

    Just look at the whole Mohammedan world.

    Yes, they have marriage.

    But the vows of a Mohammedan husband are worth little.  A Mohammedan husband can divorce his wife unilaterally, which a Christian husband cannot. A Mohammedan husband can legally marry additional legal wives over the objections of his wife and in-laws. And children of his concubines/slaves are also fully legitimate.

    Nor is grabbing a teen boy before anyone else gets him any guarantee, because Islam does not have primogeniture. All sons are eligible.

    The wives and. much more importantly, fathers-in-law and brethren-in-law of Mohammedan world must have cursed many sons-in-law for divorcing their daughters and sisters, or taking additional wives or concubines. Yet they have not managed to enforce lifelong monogamy on their allies.


    You're mixing a lot of stuff up here. Untruths, to misnomers, to outright lies, as well as the fact that it applies to everything.


    For one, a christian can divorce his wife unilaterally. And vice versa. 99.999% of the time, if you show up to court in America, the UK, mainland Europe, and say "I want a divorce from my spouse", you get it. It is the same in Arabic middle east. 


    For two, if married to multiple women, all of those kids are legitimate. Those are not bastards. Same in all the various polygamist sects of Christianity, for that matter. Having multiple wives means having multiple sets of legitimate kids. Same in both religions.


    For three, in polygamist religions/sects/cultures worldwide, throughout history, having children with a woman who was NOT married into the family, was considered bastardy, and those children did NOT sit in the inheritance line, did NOT sit at the family table, etc etc etc.


    Monogamy is not required for bastardy. Islam is not required for polygamy. Islam does shun bastards. All other polygamists do as well.

  22. On 6/16/2017 at 10:23 AM, Sea Dragon said:

    Wow. Thank you. But I guess I still have a question as to if being a bastard was a negative thing rather than it just being a name or word to show they are different. 


    Nah, think about it yourself. It's plain and clear and easily deduced. Bastards have existed, and have been scorned ever since.... Marriage was an institution. 


    Can you seriously dream up a world where people swear to be together for life, swear to raise their children together, swear to be honest, loyal and noble to each other.... but where Bastards are also welcome and accepted?


    No. No wife would want that. No husband would want that. No child would want that. Bastards have existed and been viewed with scorn and derision, since marriage began.

  23. Baelish. Your question was "most fit to rule". Not, "best ruler for the people". Assuming LF can put a child on some noble woman or another to have heirs, he's the most capable ruler. Again, his rule might not be the best for each realm, each house, each kingdom.... But he'd keep it running, and keep money flowing, and hold his enemies at bay. Baelish, I say. (not A LF apologist, just being for real, here).


    If the question was "which house would rule the best for the smallfolk", I'd go with Tyrell. 

    If the question was "which house would rule the best for the noble houses", I'd go with Lannister.

    If the question was "which house would rule with the most justice and fairness all around", I'd go with Stark. 

    If the question was "which house would guarantee ruin and pain and destruction for all"I'd go with Targaryen.

  24. I think he does a fine job. Given the amount of people and places, accents, ages, etc... It's like being asked to narrate War and Peace. My only complaints come in some of his pronunciations of various names. Tragaryen... ugh.... Danerius.... sigh.... viserius.... jeeeeez, at least he's consistent... Br-eye-EEN.... that's the worst....  My only real complaint with his character voices, is that any/all sea people, all sound identical to Davos. He has one pirate voice, and he uses it for all boat-loving folks. Oh, and his manly Melisandre voice.


    I will say... if I had listened first, I might not have even noticed these things. But I already had the sounds set in my head.... And then the fact that Dawn and Dorne are identical pronounced to a British man.... gets confusing. But I tried to put myself in that position... He had a tall task, and stepped up to the plate. I give him credit.