Cereal Forel

My first 10, sufficient Jaime, sufficient Hound. Plus motherfucking DRAGONS!

I think the answer is that there's nothing to like about book Shae. She's one of the most 2 dimensional characters in the entire series.

The vast majority do, the very vocal minority don't :shrug: I gave it an 8. Needs more Hound. Needs more Jaime.

Speaking of Arya, I thought this was Maisie William's worst episode :( She's been so stellar for the rest of them, but her lines didn't quite resonate this episode, not that she had much to work with.

Well I'm glad at least someone else is enjoying themselves and it's not just me :thumbsup: I hope you'd give me a little more credit than thinking what I've put out here is hard evidence. Anyone who's read the books would know most of what I've posted is at least somewhat in contradiction to the books. If there was hard evidence one way or another there'd be no debate. GRRM is a better author than that. I do think she shows sociopathic tendencies, but I also think most of her kills are justified within Westerosi standards. I think I've even argued that in the past. She might not start out that way, but by the end she definitely is. She kills Dareon for his boots, we even have it from her own POV. She didn't kill him because he was a deserter, even though he was. She straight up murdered him because she felt like it.

It's not skewed logic at all. People who get fired up over trivial stuff cause me to want to see how far they can be provoked. I don't want the thread to get locked or anybody to get banned, so I'm asking him to calm down. This is the internet after all, it's serious business.

You're no fun at all. I haven't resorted to insulting your intelligence. If you don't see her actions as even a little bit sociopathic, then there's really no hope. She'll always remain my favorite little sociopath.

Calm down, christ. There's no reason to get worked up, it takes all the fun out of it (and it tempts me to provoke further, which I don't want to do). If you aren't having any fun then maybe step back and take a breather. Arya is my 3rd favorite character in the series, I'm not insulting her :rolleyes: All I did was provide the diagnosis. She lines up pretty well. You'll also notice that a lack of empathy is nowhere to be found. In real life you might have to be 18 to be diagnosed, but in Westeros people get "bedded" at 13, I think things are a tad different there.

I should rephrase. She doesn't feel empathy for those she's killed, as in she feels no remorse. Let's not get too worked up here, we are discussing the intentions of a fictional character in a book here. Here are the symptoms of being a sociopath 1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; 2 deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; 3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead; 4. irritability and aggression, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; 5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others; 6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations; 7. lack of remorse, as indicated by indifference to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another; Emphasis bolded by me. Some don't apply because we're in Westeros and not real life, but she fits the rest of those symptoms to a T

Actually I don't think Arya feels any empathy at all. It doesn't matter if her life was in danger or not. She hasn't felt real remorse for any of the people she's killed. On top of that, she's distinctly detached emotionally from all of her friends. Sure she seeks revenge for their death, but once her friends leave her she doesn't miss them at all. and for the record, I have had my opinion swayed by people on this board. I used to believe that Syrio lived, but now I've admitted that it was the wrong stance to take and now I believe he's dead.

That's true, Gregor Clegane is pretty endearing. You can make whatever argument you want, it won't prove Arya isn't a sociopath.

It's easy to justify each kill as self-defense if your definition encompasses anyone who could potentially harm her. If she had killed one of Lord Beric's men it would still have been self defense because she was a captive? I love Arya to death, but let's call a spade a spade. She's a sociopath, but an endearing sociopath. She's the daughter you want to have, except that she kills people without a second thought.

More like she'll call him Ser and he'll scoff at her. We still need more Hound. I'm pretty sure when Arya slit the guards throat at Harrenhal that wasn't exactly self defense. Or when she had Weese killed, or really any of the 3 kills she gets from Ja'quen. None of those were self defense.

He murdered prisoners of war against the wishes of his sovereign. I'm pretty sure Ned would have executed him too.

I've always felt that their downfall was because they're incapable of seeing anyone's viewpoints but their own (in addition to being too honorable for their own good). Ned only sees things at face value. He sees Jaime on the throne after Aerys is dead and assumes the worst without ever bothering to find out what really happened. He sees Renly's offer as "ripping children from their bed screaming and shedding blood all over the city" instead of removing Cersei from power and potentially preventing a war. He takes Littlefinger at face value while not placing any trust in Varys. He looks down on people he views as less honorable than himself. We never really get to see if Robb is the same way, he interacts well enough with his own army and bannermen, but we never get a POV from him to know what he's really thinking like we do with Ned, Catelyn, Jon, and Sansa.