The Dragon Demands

I've been thinking it over and I disagree with the conclusion Elio & Linda reached in their video that "maybe they're just doing the Long Night, which doesn't have a prequel novella to adapt (or even World book chapter) to distance themselves from Martin's actual writings as much as possible". I don't think altruistically or negatively of HBO, but purely in terms of Realpolitik. I mean this sympathetically, as the Long Night announcement baffled me too at first. But in HINDSIGHT.... The thing that we, as book-readers, sometimes fail to do is take a step back and realize they're trying to appeal to the TV audience. And Elio & Linda did that in their video a little - pointing out "They wouldn't do First Blackfyre Rebellion because it's never been mentioned in a live-action TV episode". Well....if they won't do Blackfyre Rebellion because it hasn't been mentioned enough...what's the inverse of that? What WOULD they do because it WAS mentioned very often? Remember how annoying it was when, any time the prequel pitches were being mentioned in the past year, casual entertainment news sites would suggest "Robert's Rebellion? The Long Night?" ….well....that's what they know. And HBO has actually tried to promote the Targaryen Conquest and Dance of the Dragons. But the fact remains: since SEASON ONE, the Long Night is the big past event the TV show has mentioned. ….I don't think they picked Long Night to "avoid GRRM's work"....I think they simply did it for Name Recognition. To a general TV audience. Fundamentally, the Long Night has more name recognition to them than the Dance of the Dragons (even though, admittedly, the TV show did try to hype it up in live-action episode dialogue, as with the Conquest, and put out animated features for both). I mean, if they said "We're doing an anthology series using an invented storyline set in the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms about 2,000 years before the Targaryen Conquest".....THAT would be "avoiding Martin's writings". And I don't really blame HBO for this so much as fundamental story structure: how often did they really need to mention the Dance of the Dragons, or the Targaryen Conquest, even, relative to "the Long Night"? Every casual viewer is at least vaguely aware of it. I realize we can't trust HBO anymore, I'm not trying to paint a rosey picture of this.....dear god, how many times did I say "Give Benioff and Weiss a chance, these are just early speed bumps" during Seasons 1 and 2? (shudder) I defended them. I defended Cogman. Their betrayal cuts deep. But HBO is going to act in their own self-interest, which means their actions will ultimately be pragmatic. It's just that we have a different frame of reference: not "what exists to adapt" so much as "what's a name that people who only saw the TV series would come back to watch?" So combine all these factors together: I was surprised, we were all surprised, that they picked the Long Night....and a the same time, for the past year, I've been annoyed that the prequel suggestion getting the most buzz from general-entertainment non-books news outlets was, "hey, maybe a Long Night prequel?" ---- It obviously had the most "Name Recognition" going for it. Whether this is a GOOD idea is a whole other matter. But the suggestion that they're trying to avoid writing Martin's works? I felt that for a while the past week, but the facts of the situation just don't sit right with me. It seems they just wanted to go with a prequel most relevant to the main TV series, in its form as a TV series, not as books. My conclusion is simply this: We were worried HBO picked the Long Night to avoid adapting Martin's actual writings. But when you think about it...it seems far more plausible that they simply did it for Name Recognition. So maybe we shouldn't worry just yet. Meanwhile, in their video, Elio & Linda expressed fears in both directions: on the one hand, that they just want to re-hash the White Walker storyline from the main TV series, while at the same time, fear that the line about "it's not the story you think you know" means they'll be changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff. Those might cancel each other out. ….of course, I've seen shows do both before. Like, comic book reboots that.....needlessly change the characters' motivations and backstories purely for the sake of being shocking, while at the same time, being a fairly repetitive and unoriginal storyline. We might get a generic re-hash of the White Walker war, combined with ancient Starks who were evil and ancient Boltons who were good (like the Dune prequels...) -- But we're hearing stuff in both directions: "it will change a lot", "it's too similar" -- the usual prequel fears. I honestly don't know what to make of it. So I'm adopting a "wait and see" attitude of "trust, but verify". I want a fresh start with Jane Goldman, or whoever does the prequel they ultimately pick. The era of D&D and Cogman bullshitting us and stonewalling their own fanbase need to end - compare with Star Wars and Star Trek writers & producers, who regularly answer basic questions via Twitter or Reddit Q&A. but I digress.... The point was just I was relieved to consider "They probably did this for Name Recognition more than avoiding GRRM".

Alright, I've done the first writeup for a Game of Thrones Wiki "hub page" on the live-action prequel projects as a whole: https://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_prequel_projects From this hub page, there will be articles on each specific pitch idea that gets ordered to pilot. The first of which is the one on the Long Night run by Jane Goldman: https://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones:_The_Long_Night Not much there yet, but the goal was to writeup everything we DO know. Just letting everyone know that's the place to check for any little updates that might be coming in weeks and months ahead (stuff that slips through major announcements). …..Given that there is a lot of speculation but little information, I cited Elio & Linda's own video analysis as an excuse to speculate on the identity of the others. I can't speculate on my own on the wiki, but I can "report on" the speculation of authorities (such as the World book co-authors). No real difference, as everyone pretty much suspects the same prequels - i.e. Targaryen Conquest, Dance of the Dragons. Obvious enough to anyone who read the books, and paid attention to news announcements. Some news writeups were pretty good on other news sites, some mainstream news sites....(shudder)….last week started making speculation lists of "maybe Robert's Rebellion and Tales of Dunk and Egg!"....even though GRRM very prominently stated they were officially not doing those. I have no idea how these people have journalism jobs, they do no research. ….well, not to be too negative, most writeups were pretty good, actually: Harper's Bazaar, Rotten Tomatoes, Esquire, all had pretty well-informed analysis. Still, it's the job of the wiki to keep the masses informed. The fault was mine for not making a "prequel news hub page" sooner.

Westeros.org's Elio & Linda on Ideas for Game of Thrones Prequels, & Dorne (5 minute video)

Westeros.org discusses...Jane Goldman's Game of Thrones: The Long Night successor project 31 minutes in: "You've said things before in jest, Elio, that then end up on the show..." Season 5 finale review, Elio: "This makes no sense, why would Ellaria poison Myrcella right before sending her away on a ship? What the hell is going to happen, they're going to have her kill Doran too and take over Dorne?!" Damn it Elio, you've murdered us all!

I got GRRM's "Doorways" comic adaptation....I kind of hope we see (another) TV adaptation of it some day.

One of the five pitches was rejected? I wonder whose? (Carly Wray, Brian Helgeland, Max Borenstein, Bryan Cogman). GRRM has ruled out: Robert's Rebellion (never) Dunk & Egg (until the print series finishes) - I think this would include 1st Blackfyre Rebellion Aegon IV (confirmed it isn't one of the 5 pitch ideas) Also notice that he refers to them as "prequels", for anyone who still insists "why not a sequel"? (ugh) My functional guesses at other prequel ideas largely matched with Elio & Linda's old video, simply because it's what's logical based on prequel novellas he's actually written: The Targaryen Conquest (probably combined with the Sons of the Dragon for later seasons) The Dance of the Dragons (possibly combined with the Regency) Young Tywin and the Reyne Rebellion One "not in Westeros" - Nymeria and the Rhoynar? Doubtful they'd jump in to Daeron the Young Dragon and the Conquest of Dorne era. I...SUSPECTED that Cogman wanted to do Young Tywin. But GRRM himself keeps saying "they don't involve any characters we know from the main series". I'm kind of hoping that instead of some of these ideas being ruled out, they're pitching them as six year long projects combining both: "Conquest/Sons of the Dragon" and "Dance/Regency" as two projects. I don't know.

I wonder which prequel idea got shelved, out of the five? We have a name: "The Long Night". So sayeth the shepherd, so sayeth the flock. ….For wiki purposes, I'm going to functionally call this "Game of Thrones: The Long Night" - it was either that or "The Long Night - A Game of Thrones Story".

George R.R. Martin blog update on the Jane Goldman announcement: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/06/11/hbo-greenlights-goldman-pilot/ [Transcript begins] To clarify, what we have here is a pilot order, not as yet a series order. Though of course we are all hoping that will follow. Yes, this is a prequel, not a sequel. None of the characters or actors from GAME OF THRONES will appear in the new show. All of the successor shows we’ve been developing have been prequels, as I have mentioned before. This one really puts the PRE in prequel, since it is set not ninety years before GAME OF THRONES (like Dunk & Egg), or a few hundred years, but rather ten thousand years (well, assuming the oral histories of the First Men are accurate, but there are maesters at the Citadel who insist it has only been half that long). We’re very early in the process, of course, with the pilot order just in, so we don’t have a director yet, or a cast, or a location, or even a title. (My vote would be THE LONG NIGHT, which says it all, but I’d be surprised if that’s where we end up. More likely HBO will want to work the phrase “game of thrones” in there somewhere. We’ll know sooner or later). We do have a showrunner: Jane Goldman, who penned the pilot script. All of the news stories about the pilot being greenlit are slapping my own picture up there next to Jane’s, which is very flattering but also a little misleading Remember, they also slapped my picture up on the news stories about the TV development of Nnedi Okarafor’s WHO FEARS DEATH, when they should have been using Nnedi’s picture. I’ve consulted with all of the writers on all of the successor shows, and several of them have visited me in Santa Fe for long days of discussion, and we’ve gone back and forth in email, text, and telephone, so I have definitely been involved… but really, the accolades here should go to Jane. She has been an absolute thrill to work with… and my god, what a talent. Those of you who are fans of not just GAME OF THRONES, but of television, film, and sf and fantasy in the broader sense are already well familiar with her work, whether you know it or not. She’s wrote the KINGSMEN movies, scripted one X-MEN film and did the story for another, did the screenplay for the adaptation of Neil Gaiman’s STARDUST, and for the superhero satire KICKASS as well. Among lots of other credits. Oh, and she’s written the script for Disney’s forthcoming live action version of THE LITTLE MERMAID too. Can’t wait for that one. I will try to keep you all informed as work progresses on the new show (whatever we end up calling it)… though, given the amount of stuff I am trying to juggle right now, news will probably break on a dozen other places before I get around to it, as happened here. As for the other successor shows… if you have been following along, you know that we started with four, and eventually went to five. One of those has been shelved, I am given to understand, and of course Jane’s pilot is now moving to film. But that does not mean the others are dead. Three more GAME OF THRONES prequels, set in different periods and featuring different characters and storylines, remain in active development. Everything I am told indicates that we could film at least one more pilot, and maybe more than one, in the years to come. We do have an entire world and tens of thousands of years of history to play with, after all. But this is television, so nothing is certain. (Oh, and WHO FEARS DEATH is moving along well too, and I am very excited about that one as well. Selwyn Seyfu Hinds did a terrific job with his first draft of the pilot, based on Nnedi’s novel). (And yes, before you ask, work on WINDS OF WINTER continues, and remains my top priority. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. If I wasn’t busy with WINDS, don’t you think I’d be scripting one or more of these pilots myself? It’s not as if I’ve never written for TV… ) So cross your fingers and your toes, fantasy fans. Some good stuff is coming. And let’s have a round of applause for Jane Goldman. [Transcript ends]

There would be a lot more direwolves and cave lions. Anything else?

I thought of an issue which I thought might be a problem but upon further reflection is kind of mixed: The question of racial diversity in an Age of Heroes / Long Night TV show. This is before the Rhoynar or the Andals migrated to Westeros, only the First Men are there. UNLIKE Game of Thrones, the story wouldn't really need to travel to Essos...nor are many in place there anyway: 8,000 years ago, Valyria wasn't on the scene yet. The Free Cities didn't exist either. The Dothraki didn't cross west of the Bone Mountains until much later. The Ghiscari Empire / Slaver's Bay was around, in its earliest years though. As for the Summer Islanders...the great thing about them is that they're the Sea People, the merchant sea people: you don't need to go TO the Summer Isles, they come to you. Summer Islander ships and crews are a common sight in the five major port cities of Westeros in the modern era. ...and the Summer Islanders have been visiting Westeros since their own earliest days, indeed, some argue they might have visited Westeros BEFORE the First Men, to build supply outposts for their fishing fleets and trade with the children of the forest. They just never "settled" it. Now a question that arose is that in the earliest part of the Dawn Age, the Summer Islands actually didn't venture beyond their own horizons, and only did that after Ghiscari ships stumbled on them. Putting their earliest date when they expanded and reached Westeros at about 8,000 years ago (we don't know if it was before or after the Long Night). …..wait a minute....if the First Men migrated to Westeros 12,000 years ago, and the Ghiscari Empire formed slightly before the Long Night 8,000 years ago, and the Summer Islanders only left their shores when the Ghiscari encountered them....there's no plausible way for there to be any possibility that the Summer Islanders visited the region around Oldtown BEFORE the First Men. (Shrug) The point is I think you plausible COULD have "foreign ships" from the Summer Isles along the coasts for trade, given that it's said they were trading with Westeros for a long time. ……. Point 2: regardless of Summer Islander backstory, the tantalizing mention of how "The East" factors into the Long Night, Azor Ahai and so forth, calmed me down; going east they'd encounter non-white characters. Possibly even the proto-Rhoynar.

There was thralldom. Polygamy may have been more of a case by case basis. Hard to say.

I am. Haven't you heard that Rhaenyra has an army? But this is getting off-topic, ser.... Are they going to do "the Long Night" or other stories from the Age of Heroes? Lann the Clever isn't well-connected to other stuff, for example.

The big question is whether this is about "the Long Night" and they're just saying "Age of Heroes", or if they want to tie in or cover other stories from the Age of Heroes. What we know about the Age of Heroes in general: This was long before the Targaryens, Rhoynar, or Andals migrated to Westeros. Only the First Men. There were no "Seven Kingdoms" yet. Basically every hill fort was its own king. Not even the "hundred kingdoms" of the First Men had really taken shape until after the Long Night (we think). The elder races, the children of the forest and the giants, were still around in some numbers but not in frequent contact with humans anymore - they retreated to the forests. The Last Hero had to find them. Sketchy reports on this - i.e. areas with biggest forests like the North and the Stormlands had larger surviving pockets of children and giants even into later eras.... Megafauna were more plentiful, before human encroachment. Direwolves were still found south of the Wall, and even Cave Lions roamed throughout Westeros. Long before the Valyrians, no one had mastered dragons yet, though wild ones did wander around every continent (according to legend). Westeros MAY have had normal-length seasons of one year, before the Long Night. Technically they all speak Old Tongue, not Common Tongue/English of the Andals - I imagine the TV show will present that with translation convention to English. Due to no Andals, there was no Faith of the Seven. NOR were there "knights". Not just culturally, but as shock cavalry - they had light cavalry, but not true heavy horse. They didn't have iron and steel weapons - the Andals introduced those. This was the bronze age of Westeros. This predates true written history - the Andals introduced the first full writing system to the continent. The First Men only had a basic runic script they used to mark graves and such. Most of the major cities, castles, and settlements didn't exist yet. King's Landing and Harrenhal were just empty fields. White Harbor didn't exist yet. Depending on when Lann the Clever lived, before or after the Long Night, Lannisport didn't exist either. Oldtown did exist...as a moderately sized trading town or something. Winterfell may have existed at the start of this but as a basic ringfort. This is the time when Winterfell and Storm's End were built in the first place. The Order of Maesters didn't exist yet, or only in its most nascent form. We don't know if that happened before or after the Long Night. Either way, without a true writing system, the raven network of communication probably didn't exist either. The Starks and Boltons were present, it's said they were fighting since as soon as the Long Night ended. Of the Great Houses of later centuries, not only the Targaryens weren't there, but any Andal families: the Arryns, Tyrells, etc. The "Baratheons" didn't exist though their Durrandom forebearers did. The Freys were just pig farmers or whatever, not nobles (having only risen up 6 centuries ago) and the Twins didn't exist. The Tullys...were around, but not a landed noble family and never kings, just followers of House Mudd. Riverrun didn't exist until after the Andal invasion. Whole question of whether Lann the Clever got Casterly Rock before or after this - no one remembers exactly when he lived. Though I do think the Lannisters intermarried with a daughter of House Casterly... The Tyrells were Andals, but the Gardeners were First Men - possibly one of their first kingdoms. The Tyrells did intermarry with them later so they are "Tyrell ancestors" though they wouldn't be called "Tyrell". Dorne was an odd assortment of petty kingdoms of the First Men, very different from the Dorne of later eras. The Martells weren't even present - being an Andal family who later intermarried with the Rhoynar. The ironborn were "around"....Archmaester Hake introduced many dating errors so it's not clear how their history matches up with the greenlands. The Greyjoys were "around", but one among many - this was the era of the kingsmoot. The sensible approach would be to make a one year project focused on Bran the Builder and/or the Last Hero, in which case they really wouldn't spend that much time south of the Neck anyway.

The narrative. News sites controlling the narrative and telling us things like "TV Dorne is normal", "TV-Stannis is normal", "the Sansa rape is normal". WE must hold the awesome power, of the fourth estate... ….but back to discussing plot elements...

If we ignore it, SOMEONE ELSE will control it. This time, we hold the reins. This time, our boot is on their throat. Won't get fooled again.