Sandy Clegg

I've just noticed the idea of mummery and pretence is tied in with the idea of 'playing roles' in Quentyn's first chapter: Back in the Planky Town Quentyn had played the wineseller, but the mummery had chafed at him, so when the Dornishmen changed ships at Lys they had changed roles as well. Aboard the Meadowlark, Cletus Yronwood became the merchant, Quentyn the servant; in Volantis, with Cletus slain, Gerris had assumed the master's role. - The Merchant's Man And the only other time the word 'role' appears in ADWD is when Barristan is musing on Quentyn's death: Grief and guilt had been known to drive good men into madness, and Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater had both played roles in their friend's demise. - The Queen's Hand I don't completely buy into the 'Quentyn is alive' theory but this careful use of the word 'role' might be significant. Are we being led to assume some 'mummery' on the two friends' part in the events surrounding Quentyn the Crisp?

I was thinking it has to be a clue to the way the big 'magical processes' work too. It could equally be related to the Fire end of that spectrum, though. Dragon bonding rituals probably demand sacrifice, consuming one 'head'.

In Braavos, three-headed Trios has a tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying The second head .... ??? The third is where those reborn emerge One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor's Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city's stranger gods. "That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do. - The Ugly Little Girl He also has a temple in Tyrosh. Penny's tale, ADWD: We went to Tyrosh first. My brother thought that would be far enough, but it wasn't. We knew a juggler there. For years and years he would juggle every day by the Fountain of the Drunken God. He was old, so his hands were not as deft as they had been, and sometimes he would drop his balls and chase them across the square, but the Tyroshi would laugh and throw him coins all the same. Then one morning we heard that his body had been found at the Temple of Trios. Trioshas three heads, and there's a big statue of him beside the temple doors. The old man had been cut into three parts and pushed inside the threefold mouths of Trios. Only when the parts were sewn back together, his head was gone." - Tyrion VIII What is the second head meant to do? Any thoughts?

The Spurned Suitor ... This Burned Suitor? I actually like this.

I read somewhere that maybe it was to hide the fact that he had named too many 'A-starting' characters, in AFFC: Aeron Arianne Asha Areo Arya Alayne So the naming convention may have been a way to mask this otherwise jarring fact? I mean, he could have just changed the names if this was the case, so I don't completely buy it. But I found it amusing.

Are you enjoying your paddle? I think @Alester Florent does a good job of treating both cases fairly, and judging the potential panic is one of the more hypothetical areas. But he does overstate Tyrion's importance I think. The panic that ensues with Joff's death is greatly aided by the Tyrell's vocal shouting: "He's choking," Queen Margaery gasped. Her grandmother moved to her side. "Help the poor boy!" the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. "Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!" Ser Garlan shoved Tyrion aside and began to pound Joffrey on the back. Ser Osmund Kettleblack ripped open the king's collar. A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still. "Turn him over!" Mace Tyrell bellowed at everyone and no one. "Turn him over, shake him by his heels!" This coupled with Cersei's grief-rage wailing and accusations are as much responsible for the panic as Joff's death, I think. The Tyrell's do their collective utmost to stir up the crowd. Would this have been as effective if Tyrion was lying on the ground? Possibly. But by a far smaller magnitude, I'd wager. A king dying signals many fearful things. Regime change. Knives coming out. Searches for culprits. You can see why people wouldn't want to hang around - if a king can be killed, who's next?

This reminds of that old joke, which for years I hadn't really understood: "A Buddhist goes up to a hot dog seller and says: make me one with everything." I thought the joke was: putting the entire universe on one hot dog, which seemed a little bit abstract but seemed to fit for the premise. But the real joke is that a Buddhist's goal may be to 'become as one' with the universe. Make him 'one' with everything. I'm so dumb.

I'm trying to establish that just because it didn't come from the east, doesn't mean it came from KL. For Sansa's boat to meet Petyr head on and for her to see the east, means she had to heading roughly NE, which makes sense. And so Peter's ship heading south, from the north, gives plenty of darkness. They can't have been travelling parallel if she met him head on. North of Sansa is as much further from KL as east would be. I'm not sure how that's being stubborn, I just want to make sure we're not assuming too much here and tread on solid ground. Or water, in this case. Well I guess this is just one of those 'your mileage will vary' issues., so we might never agree. But I see the fact of LF's assumption that his plan worked as a key character-defining moment. It speaks to his arrogance, and we learn a little more about him. But also, if the target was Joffrey and the plan was to have Sansa escape with Dontos following his death, then their very arrival on the ship means something went right at least. Petyr gains information by their very presence. And Oswell does not apprise Petyr of anything, remember, which is not insignificant. If anything had gone awry, we can reasonably expect his trusted henchman to have told him so. So Petyr is, perhaps arrogantly but also logically, taking lack of any new information to mean everything proceeded as expected. George is free to muddy the waters whenever he sees fit, he's not beholden to anyone. My main sticking point is that Tyrion makes no sense as the target at this wedding, and has far little evidence in the text to support it compared to Joffrey. For normal readers (not forum members) this solution is already plenty convoluted, with a complex resolution, which seems to satisfy the narrative logic. I'm perfectly happy for there to be wrinkles in the plan, as I've said. Having an extra target, or extra poisoners, for example, which would count as surprises I guess. The pie and the wine? Maybe. But the wine's purple discolouration, so casually mentioned in the text, looks to be as subtle a clue as you can get for the average reader and doesn't feel like a red herring to me. If I was to play devil's advocate and support the pie->Tyrion theory, then what clues are we left with? The Kingsguard who mentions that 'servants were coming and going all evening'. That's it. The pie or the cream is not described as looking or smelling odd - fair clues which one might expect if the pie had been tampered with. So that's extremely subtle, even for George. I think with Jaime's conversation with the Kingsguard he is doing what he does in that quote: muddying the waters to make the mystery more tantalising. I can't speculate on what surprises in the wedding plot GRRM may have, if he does come good on that promise. Tywin's theorised poisoning by the Red Viper might feature in there somewhere? There seemed to be no shortage of able poisoners in KL that day. Sorry for being stubborn, it's really not like me to be digging down with plot stuff - as some here may know, I much prefer the more esoteric analyses. That's a polite way of putting it I guess. But this whole purple wedding/strangler debate has fuelled a theory I've had in my notes for a while now, so I've started writing it up properly. It may be possible to prove not only that the strangler killed Joffrey, but to identify one of its future targets. But I'll need about 10,000 words and more symbolism than you can shake a stick at, in order to do so. Gulp.

GRRM didn't go through it, however, and that seems to be the point you're missing. Cressen's prologue sets out the technique for using the strangler. This is the technique which we must then use when analysing its usage in the subsequent book, otherwise why give us the technique in the first place? It's the author setting the groundwork for the reader to think about the solution. Then by analysing the events of the wedding and applying the previous method shown, we can develop theories as to what happened. One chalice, one target. And several ways it could have gone down as to how it was poisoned and by who exactly, I agree. Like flicking a peanut into a waste paper basket, perhaps. I'm just saying it was a big chalice, which makes the Tyrell's job of inserting poison into it that much easier.

You can't ignore the complete facts to justify this. Petyr is exactly arrogant enough to assume that his plan worked, and George wants us to know that he had no way to know this for a fact because he has the bells ringing AND THEN fade from hearing. If you just skip that last bit, then sure I would agree with you. But George gives us enough info to work this out.

The bay is big. He has plenty of water north of wherever Sansa was, out in Blackwater Bay, as they had rowed for such a long time. See this map: https://heavy.com/entertainment/2019/05/game-of-thrones-map-kings-landing-dragonstone-winterfell-dragonstone-s8e5-timeline/ For example, draw a line south from Duskendale then east from KL - if Sansa was anywhere around that intersecting point, then The Merlin King could have easily come from the north while being nowhere near King's Landing, and Sansa can still see the east sun rising. There's no support for Petyr coming from King's Landing still, yet plenty of ways he can avoid the eastern sun.

I mean, this is without basis and kind of ageist. I'm no spring chicken myself but my hands don't shake.

Except Petyr had no way to hear the bells, as has already been discussed. He's out in the misty silent darkness of Blackwater Bay, and I personally haven't been convinced by any argument that he had been in any position previously to hear them, as that contradicts what we are shown in Sansa's POV and defies logic, as well as going against Littlefinger's seeming desire to stay well out of the action.

And Tyrion doesn't even find the pie that appetising. You'd think if they wanted to poison Tyrion with food, the poisoners would have done some research and found out what his favourite types of food are ... Points for using exfiltrating in a sentence. I've always wanted to do that!

It was kept in the family, which is hardly the same as hiring 'serving men'. The Tyrells seem more tight-knit than the Lannisters in this regard, especially the three women. I feel like they then 'count as one' for the purposes of complexity, as there is seemingly no risk they would rat each other out. And in this case having the core family involved (including Marg's mother) would be helping to ensure Marg's survival, so hardly 'needless'. Olenna is important. I think we shouldn't underestimate the skill, nerves and stomach needed for the job. She'd want it done properly. Margaery is barely more than a girl herself, don't forget. Plus, if Olenna is somehow caught, she is more dispensable. She's lived a long life, after all. Why put Marg at risk of treason as well as death? We have no evidence that the strangler dissolves easily in food - unless one is an alchemist or maester, it's taking an awful gamble by using anything other than the strangler's most traditional medium: red wine. Plus the chalice was a big enough target that she could probably pop the amethyst in even from several paces away. Its size is a significant advantage for the Tyrells in many ways.

Ha, I know the feeling. I suspect you may have already waded where you only meant to paddle, with this comment. This is a good debate, though, because it really does point out some of the difficulties in finding evidence when an author pre-empts this by providing ample decoys and red herrings to not only confuse, but to leave room for further surprises in the future.

No idea, unless Olenna told her she was going to do it. The chalice is kind of an important detail here, and probably points to more Tyrells being involved than just Olenna. Assuming their involvement, they have to ensure that Margaery doesn't drink that wine once the strangler goes in. To be 100% sure of this, Olenna would need to have a signal worked out with her grand-daughter after she does the deed. That part seems logical enough, but what if Joff presses the cup into her hands once it's been spiked and insists she drinks? Well that wine chalice was a gift from Margarey's father (and a clue from GRRM) which should immediately raise our suspicions. It was three feet tall, half the height of a grown man. Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. A huge, unwieldy cup. When full, Joff even requires two arms to lift the thing: "Let the cups be filled!" Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it. This is very useful for Margaery if she needs to avoid drinking poisoned wine, having been tipped off by granny Thorns, who is never far from her side at the wedding. Should Margaery need to fake drinking, the sheer size of the thing would have made it easy to do some quick mummery. Nobody would even see her head behind the damn thing. Alternatively, if she feels that is too risky, she has another perfect get-out in the chalice being so heavy, so she could make a show of being too weak to handle it, dropping it, then spilling the contents. When it's refilled, she should be safe enough providing it didn't have any dregs (although personally I would request it scrubbed for a week with ethanol before I would go near it!). Olenna even has backup poison in ready supply just in case of such an emergency: simply acquire another strangler amethyst from Sansa's venomous hairnet and start over.

At a point which is out of range of the sights and sounds of King's Landing. The textual evidence is pretty clear that wherever Sansa is, Peter is and was further out than that. The directional speculation doesn't confirm where he was. Our last known information is that he was not in KL. Now, if George wanted to plant some clues that LF had been closer and heard the bells, or was in KL, don't you think you would fairly have left some in the text which might show this? Instead we have nothing but what ifs and maybes. So that's weight of evidence, which I can't really ignore. Except it was not shown to be sailing away from KL, but rather patently the opposite. Making the bells even further away. I'm afraid I have to point to the above. If it wasn't in the text that Petyr was coming from KL, then there's no strong basis to prove otherwise that supports Tyrion over Joff. It's possibilities vs. textual evidence. Again, it's a pretty big leap. A commotion like that would've brought kingsguard circling round the guests nearby pretty sharpish. Accidental death/accusation of Tyrion meant that eyes were not on Sansa - enough to get away. Littlefinger is simply assuming that his plan succeeded. He is within his right to do so, as it's in character for him to be so cocky. And again - if he had been proved wrong and Joff wasn't dead, that doesn't retroactively alter any plan. It just makes him an arrogant assassin on top of everything else. As it turns out, he was right to assume his plan had worked.

So if George has gone out of his way for the reader to accept this as the only version of events that is possible, then what are the additional surprises that he may reveal? I think George himself is telling us that the mystery of Joffrey’s death may have been revealed, or may not have been revealed, depending on what George decides to do in future books. So I think George has left enough wiggle room to throw us a curveball. I've always said that I'm happy to look at wrinkles in the plan. So of course we may get more reveals. But he very, very rarely even says this much in the way of confirmation, so I think that is very telling. Of course he's within his rights to keep us off-guard and say 'no promises'. I'll look forward to the surprises - but he also has to pay off observant readers, so I will counter with this quote: The truth is when you're when you're when you're writing a book that has any kind of surprises or mysteries … you lay in certain clues that, let’s say, “the butler did it”. And it's a long series, you lay in the clues and the first one and you have more clues, and maybe a few red herrings, and subsequent ones and - most readers will not miss that. They will not figure out who did it. They will not even be cognisant there's a mystery, or they will put together the clues wrong. But there will always be some - and this has always been true …. who put the clues together and figure out that the butler did it. What's changed in the eyes of the internet is - now that smartass feels that they can go on the internet and say ‘oh here are the seven clues that I found and … see? The butler did it!’ So, if you’re a writer and you're aware of that then … what do you do? Now, your surprise is ruined. Because suddenly this person has put it out - and now thousands of people have read it and they’ll say ‘you're right I didn't see that but yeah the butler did do it’. So … you can change the subsequent books and the butler didn't do it - now the chambermaid did it. But but then all your clues that you put in so carefully in the first and second book lead to nowhere in. They’re contradictions. So I don't do that. I, you know I'm sorry but the butler is still going to do it at the end and some people will have figured that out I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtX5kBKaqn0 No changes to whodunnit, but the promise of surprises to come? I feel like the latter is more vague than the former, but people's mileage will vary when it comes to interpreting these things.

This is a partial reading at best. In the full passage it's hard to mistake the wording for anything other than the bells were gone: The shore fell away, the fog grew thicker, the sound of the bells began to fade. Finally even the lights were gone, lost somewhere behind them. They were out in Blackwater Bay, and the world shrank to dark water, blowing mist, and their silent companion stooped over the oars. So first the shore is 'gone' ... Then the the bells 'start to go (fade) Then finally even the lights were gone. That 'even' signifies the last thing to go. Implying that everything has now faded. Gone. This is further supported by : "the world shrank to dark water, blowing mist, and their silent companion stooped over the oars." That's what remains of her world. It does not include shores, lights ... or bells. Yes, George is being clever and poetic here. He doesn't beat us over the head with the fact that the bells are gone. But how anyone can read that passage and come to the conclusion that she can still hear any bells is a mystery to me. The only salient point is that Sansa was coming from KL. And Peter's ships meets her head on. The direction they come from is immaterial, except for the fact that it couldn't also have been coming 'from King's Landing'. He hasn't shown this. Sansa is closer to KL than Petyr. Therefore he's further from the city, therefore further into the bay. Just not further east, which is immaterial anyway. Not a bad point, but I think we can assume that he knows something of the poison he chose to do the job. We don't have any stats on the strangle's survival rate, but it has been shown to be pretty damn effective. I think he would have been fairly safe in this assumption, though, and been pretty surprised if Sansa had then told him Joff was still alive. But she didn't, so his assumption was a safe one.

Did you miss that in your quote, George literally says " I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something". This already negates Tyrion as the target, so what's the point of arguing about any discrepancies in the Tyrell/LF plan? Which there may have been, of course, and I think that's a more worthwhile discussion to have. I don't think LF saw himself as an equal partner in that conspiracy, and his use of the jousting dwarves shows that he went further than providing the hairnet. He may have gambled on Tyrion being fingered somehow, even if the Tyrells were hoping it was seen as accidental. Like people have said, this alliance was not based on trust and it would be just like LF to squeeze a little more out of the affair to give him extra profit. Like I say, I'm happy to argue the wrinkles in the LF/Tyrell alliance, but I'm really not in any doubt as to the primary target being Joffrey any more.

... but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident — someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-purple-wedding-george-r-r-martin-explains-thinking-behind-king-joffrey-s-demise-9262045.html ... the poison that is "used to kill Joffrey" .... NOT .... "the poison from which Joffrey dies". The infinitive of purpose is used when referring to intent. The poison was there to kill Joffrey. George knows how to use words, and I think this is as clear as it comes. ... someone's out celebrating. Joff was celebrating his wedding. Tyrion was there having a miserable time. ... that 'someone' gets food caught in his throat ... again Joffrey. It doesn't really look like GRRM is trying to weasel out of this at all. He could have been way more evasive. And he even wrote that that Purple Wedding episode personally, making it fit the accepted version. That's not really anything to be swept under the carpet. Doesn't it feel right that after three books GRRM does actually tie some loose threads up? Lets see, the book came out in 2000, so I guess I wrote those scenes in like 1998. I knew all along when and how Joffrey was going to die, and on what occasion. I just think we need to treat this incident as a closed case, the culmination of a three-book buildup with a decent payoff, and move on to more unresolved mysteries from later books (of which there are many).

If you say so. I think the motivations are all fine, but you don't so it comes down to personal taste I guess. The people who dislike the purple wedding resolution seem to be in a minority, at least. This is what happens when people are starved of plot for years. They invent new ones. I think it requires us to fill in a lot of the blanks for ourselves, which isn't quite the same thing. He trusts readers to follow clues, eventually. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-purple-wedding-george-r-r-martin-explains-thinking-behind-king-joffrey-s-demise-9262045.html It feels very 'anti-complexity' to decry LF choosing to conspire with the Tyrells. As neither of them are POV characters, we will never be 'in the room' for how it happened. We don't get to know everything, I'm afraid. But conspire they clearly did.

The fact of the bells merely gives George a parameter to play with. That parameter is: an audible signal for the king's death. He then defines that parameter by having the bells slowly fade to nothing as Sansa reaches open water. By the time she reaches the rendezvous point with Dontos, having changed her clothes, the bell-ringing has begun. We have no info on how long it should or shouldn't take between the death and the ringing, but it would have been odd if they had stayed completely silent while she made her escape. George the writer (as opposed to guy who just draws up the plots) manages to add to the urgency of her escape in this way, by creating a more suspenseful atmosphere. The fact of the bells fading away is no less significant than their sounding, either, as it allows us to gauge the length of her rowing out to sea, where she meets Littlefinger. It lets us know that LF has taken heavy measures to remain out of earshot to those in the docks, and also lets us know that he couldn't have learned about Joff's death in this way. We have to allow for dramatic beats to take place. Don't forget that first-time readers think that Dontos was waiting for the bedding ceremony to whisk Sansa away. Joff's death comes as a total surprise, as does Littlefinger's involvement in it. Dontos insisting that it was 'the pie' is just a necessary sop to keep Sansa quiet until they are out of the city, and also in case of prying little birds. George has wound up the drama and chosen the moment of Sansa's arrival to have LF spring the truth on her, and us. This is also speculation. We see the boat coming towards Sansa - that's textual evidence put there deliberately. And there are plenty of ports between KL and the Fingers where LF could have been hiding out before returning, just as plausibly (in fact more so) as him being in KL, where there was the risk of him being seen (quite a significant one, I would say, as it destroys his alibi) just before a royal murder. What does he gain from remaining in KL, only to spring out to sea as soon as the killing takes place? He was too far from the wedding to affect events there, so ... just waiting for bells? What does hope to gain by that, even if it was logistically possible for him to do so and get out to see before Sansa? Oswell would be on his way to the ship with Sansa in tow not long after anyway, and Oswell could tell LF anything he desperately needed to know regarding bells, if he needed it that badly. So all this ... just so he could get the jump on Sansa and pretend that he intended to kill Joff alll along? To keep his aura of infallible mastermind? That risk/reward ratio seems highly implausible and a little silly.

In the real world you might have a point, but this is a book. And GRRM has gone to such lengths in the text to back up the accepted version of events (which I think are well-documented in this thread and others) that it just seems like you dislike the story George has given us (and which he is quoted as supporting, see previous posts). You could just actually just say that, rather than finding ways to imagine it went down otherwise. George doesn't please all of us all of the time. But I feel that if you keep picking on this thread you'll be left with a book full of characters who never interact with anyone or do anything interesting.