Sandy Clegg

She brings the deed itself .... while LF sits on The Merling King far away from any suspicion. Also, isn't the whole point of the strangler poison that it makes it look as though someone is choking, even to the person being choked? So it was 'working as intended'. Littlefinger gets the distance from the crime he needs. The Tyrells have a stooge in Sansa to take the fall, once the poison is found. Sansa escaping with the evidence was probably part of the scheme LF kept from Olenna, but since we aren't in her POV we can't know for sure how her side of the plan was meant to go down. If Joffrey hadn't pointed the finger at Tyrion, the Tyrells may have been put under the spotlight. Cersei hates Margaery only a little less than her brother, so they can consider themselves lucky.

While reading through some Classic Thread ideas I came across this excellent old post on Jon the Berserker by @bemused: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/#comments It's a good read overall, but the idea I want to focus on is not Jon's potential berserker power, but rather the theory that, when Jon was stabbed, he was wearing the ringmail that Sam sees on the workbench outside Jon's solar in AFFC. Here is the relevant section: Jon's potential survival from assassination (in a condition which may range from 'mortally wounded / almost dead' to 'bleeding but still able to fight' - I'm not coming down on any particular side here) is not a new idea. But the huge cliffhanger status it has been given in the series means that this is an event which surely falls into the category of 'landmark moment'. These moments tend to be things that GRRM lays groundwork for, in terms of plot details (e.g. some Chekov's Gun chain mail lying on a workbench, as mentioned above). He is not the kind of author to leave foreshadowing solely to plot elements, however - there are usually echoes lurking in thematic elements, too, or even wordplay. And I think there may be more than a few of these in Sam's first AFFC chapter. This would imply that GRRM had Jon's assassination written in stone since starting AFFC nearly a quarter of a century ago. So, we're looking for anything that ties into stabbing, bloody wounds, and protection. The fact of Jon wearing hidden ringmail would no doubt increase his chances of survival, so I think it's worth exploring any seeds GRRM has sown in this regard. We only need take a look at the two pages from Sam's POV just before meeting Jon, and the initial moments of their conversation. The observation of the key item - the chainmail on the workbench - actually comes between some other hints of foreshadowing. At least, it's possible - with hindsight - to read them as such. You might well disagree and think these are quirks of pattern-finding. Intentionality is hard to prove when George is at his most subtle, I guess, but it'll be interesting to get people's thoughts. The most significant point to bear in mind here is the extremely close proximity of these clues in the chapter. All occur within a two-page spread (in my edition at least). 1) The first echo of Jon's future assassination comes in the unlikely figure of Gilly, who Sam bumps into, causing him to drop two books: "Sam." Her voice sounded raw. Gilly was dark-haired and slim, with the big brown eyes of a doe. She was swallowed by the folds of Sam's old cloak, her face half-hidden by its hood, but shivering all the same. Her face looked wan and frightened. "What's wrong?" Sam asked her. "How are the babes?" Gilly pulled loose from him. "They're good, Sam. Good." "Between the two of them it's a wonder you can sleep," Sam said pleasantly. "Which one was it that I heard crying last night? I thought he'd never stop." "Dalla's boy. He cries when he wants the teat. Mine . . . mine hardly ever cries. Sometimes he gurgles, but . . ." Her eyes filled with tears. "I have to go. It's past time that I fed them. I'll be leaking all over myself if I don't go." She rushed across the yard, leaving Sam perplexed behind her. Gilly has a certain 'Jon aura' here, being described as ;dark-haired and slim, shivering with half her face hidden'. More interestingly, of the two babes it is Gilly's son who hardly cries, reminding us of Jon's direwolf who makes no sound, perhaps. And there is the first faint hint of the theme of a bloody stabbing with the words: "I'll be leaking all over myself if I don't go." 2) From two babies to two tomes. Sam drops two books on bumping into Gilly: He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he'd dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks. Sam cursed himself for a clumsy oaf as he smoothed the pages down and brushed them off. Gilly's presence always flustered him and gave rise to . . . well, risings. A Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch should not be feeling the sorts of things that Gilly made him feel, especially when she would talk about her breasts and . . . A couple of things here. The book that ends up damaged in the fall is the one on dragon kin (we can easily draw a broad connection to Jon here). Specifically, it is a picture of Balerion the Black Dread which ends up muddy. In the original thread Jon's dream of himself atop the Wall in 'black ice, holding a flaming sword' is compared to this quote: “When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” ... Xaro Xoan Daxos to Dany .. ADWD So black Balerion is quite a nice parallel to Jon, in his dream at least. The picture, we note, isn't ruined beyond repair - Sam brushes it off and smooths it down. But it is damaged nonetheless. This could inform us as to Jon's condition post-stabbing, I believe, even though it's still rather vague. The second thing to notice is a piece of wordplay on Sam's 'risings'. Here, it ostensibly refers to his rising arousal caused by Gilly (we all know where that eventually leads!). Feelings which a Sworn Brother ought not to feel. But as we are in Jon-assassination foreshadowing territory here, I believe we should also take the other meaning of 'rising' to be equally pertinent: rīsing noun The action or process of the verb in any sense A revolt A rising of sorts, or 'uprising' if you prefer, is precisely what occurs when Bowen Marsh et al. decide to turn on their Lord Commander and stab him multiple times. And no, "... a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch should not be feeling" treasonous thoughts such as these, let alone act on them. So we have foreshadowing as to an incident involving a dragon's downfall, and a possible motive/context for the reason behind it. 3. The ringmail itself appears next. A key component in the foreshadowing (if this is indeed what we are seeing). "Lord Snow is waiting." Two guards in black cloaks and iron halfhelms stood by the doors of the armory, leaning on their spears. Hairy Hal was the one who'd spoken. Mully helped Sam back to his feet. He blurted out thanks and hurried past them, clutching desperately at the stack of books as he made his way past the forge with its anvil and bellows. A shirt of ringmail rested on his workbench, half-completed. Jon never mentions putting on any ringmail in his assassination chapter - this is covered more in the original thread. So this tiny mention all the way back in the start of AFFC is ... about as subtle as it gets. And are there any other clues relating to shielding, protection or padding in the upcoming paragraphs? Yup. 4. As mentioned in the original thread, Sam is bitten by the Old Bear's raven: “Did that wretch break the skin?” Sam eased the books down and peeled off his glove. “He did.” He felt faint. “I’m bleeding.” “We all shed our blood for the Watch. Wear thicker gloves.” We all shed our blood for the Watch. The mention of wearing 'thicker gloves' here is also interesting, if Jon has the ringmail in mind as a preventative measure even now. I don't want to repeat what's been said, though. Read the old post, it's great. 5. The letter to Tommen is described as a 'paper shield' - a nice callback to the one Ned uses against Cersei. "A paper shield." Sam sucked at the blood on his palm as he read. He knew Maester Aemon's hand on sight. His writing was small and precise, but the old man could not see where the ink had blotted, and sometimes he left unsightly smears. "A letter to King Tommen?" This shield is blotted and stained with ink (in place of blood). If we run with the metaphor we might say that this shield has seen action, and not been entirely effective. 6. Bran's padding. Right after the 'paper shield' comes yet another mention of protection, this time in Jon's recollection of when Bran fought Tommen in Winterfelll: "At Winterfell Tommen fought my brother Bran with wooden swords. He wore so much padding he looked like a stuffed goose. Bran knocked him to the ground." Jon went to the window. "Yet Bran's dead, and pudgy pink-faced Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne, with a crown nestled amongst his golden curls." Let's remind ourselves of the original scene from book one: To her disappointment, it was the younger boys drilling. Bran was so heavily padded he looked as though he had belted on a featherbed, and Prince Tommen, who was plump to begin with, seemed positively round. They were huffing and puffing and hitting at each other with padded wooden swords under the watchful eye of old Ser Rodrik Cassel. - AGOT, Arya I Two padded fighters. Not only does this reinforce the motif of padding/protection, it also pulls into focus the chief antagonist of Jon's attempted assassination, Bowen Marsh: Bowen is round and red as a pomegranate, with plump hands, round cheeks, and a red face. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bowen_Marsh Just like the plump and padded Bran and Tommen, Bowen is round and portly - and red (just like a pomegranate). So, in miniature, we have we have two combatants, both padded in their own ways, who possibly foreshadow a future event in which one padded (with flesh) individual stabs another individual ... also then padded, we might assume? If the parallel is to fit, then it seems so. What do you think? Has George gone to incredibly subtle lengths to foreshadow Jon's wearing of ringmail here? And if so, to what extent could this mitigate against his wounding?

The rumours of Aerys 'taking liberties' with Joanna at the bedding ceremony are such a massive tease from George, and I think he wants to keep it that way. Part of the fun of Tyrion's character is the uncertainty principle of who or what he actually is. With his mismatched eyes, shifting loyalties and vague rumours of dragon blood in his veins, he represents a different kind of sphinx to that of Alleras. He'll always be a Lannister, but he might be something more.

Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but of course Patchface embodies a more magical version of 'life after drowning' than than the echo of it performed on the Iron Islands. He was gone under the water for days, and returns as a prophet, but in a much more GRRM-style sense of the word. A raving imbecile who likely has no idea of the meaning of what he's saying, but whose prophecies are perhaps more likely to be accurate because of it. What he gains in foresight, he loses in the mental faculties to be able to decipher any of it. He pays a cost.

That's true. Forget all the almond tree stuff then I guess!

Kind of common knowledge to everyone that citrus is bad for one's teeth, so why the error? Twice, in fact, as Old Bear Mormont also puts lemon in his beer for 'good teeth'. Hobb had given him a lemon, still cold from the Wall. Jon crushed it in his fist. The juice trickled through his fingers. Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day, and claimed that was why he still had his own teeth. - Jon IX It feels like George has (intentionally?) gotten lemons mixed up with almonds, which actually do have calcium-boosting properties, unlike lemons. Maybe in the universe of ASOIAF their properties have been switched, and we're meant to wonder why? I can think of one reason why this might be pertinent, for the suspicious-minded. The almond tree (unlike the lemon tree) has two very notable bits of symbolism, related to prophecy: 1. From the bible: The almond tree is associated with one of the earliest prophecies of a young Jeremiah. “Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘Jeremiah, what do you see?’ And I said, ‘I see a branch of an almond tree.’ Then the Lord said to me, ‘You have seen well, for I am watching to perform My word.’” (Jeremiah 1:11-12) This prophecy uses a play on words that carries a vital truth for Israel as well as for us. The Hebrew word for almond, shaked, is also translated “to watch”. By seeing the almond branch, God assured Jeremiah that He is watching over His word to bring it to pass, no matter the passage of time. https://www.icej.org/blog/the-lesson-of-the-almond-tree/ Almonds have the meaning of 'watch', in this case being watched over by God. In Dany's chapters the Dothraki are often described as having 'almond eyes', which is another 'watchful' connection. 2. In The Canterville Ghost, by Oscar Wilde In this well-known story (adapted into films) an 'almond tree that doesn't bloom' is mentioned in a prophecy that must be fulfilled to send an English ghost to his eternal rest: The almond tree that blooms at the end of The Canterville Ghost symbolizes unlikely beginnings. Almond trees don’t really grow in England: they’re more adapted to hotter climates in the Mediterranean. So, it’s no real surprise that the Canterville’s almond tree has gone barren for so long. Its blooming, however, is surprising. As stated in the prophesy inscribed on Canterville Chase’s library window, the blooming almond tree signals Sir Simon’s final passing into eternal rest, thereby suddenly ending his three-hundred-year reign as the ghost of Canterville Chase. https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-canterville-ghost/symbols/the-almond-tree This symbolism is related to unlikely new beginnings and ending a reign of terror. Interestingly, the ghost has haunted the mansion for 300 years, much the same amount of time that has passed since Aegon's Conquest. Also ... almond trees don't grow in England, huh? I wonder if Oscar Wilde's fandom go as crazy over this as we do over lemon trees? So has GRRM made a deliberate switcheroo here, in order to bury the almond tree symbolism and make it harder for us to decipher? Or do lemons in Westeros have fundamentally different properties and that's all there is to it? Make of these loose ramblings what you will. EDIT: D'oh, I forgot that sailors used to drink lemon water to prevent scurvy, thanks @Evolett and Club-foot below. Well, when you're wrong, you're wrong!

Yes, I'm wondering too. It may be that GRRM is using the Burned Men's origins to make us draw a connection between R'hllorism and dragon taming. If so, there's probably not much more to it than being a vague clue. But I do like the motif of 'the greater the part burned, their greater one's status'. To me, this recalls the way Dragonbinder horn operates. The blower of the horn literally has their heart burned away, and in return a dragon's 'loyalty' is earned.

What's a classic thread (not one of your own) that you think people should check out, and why? I thought this might be a nice idea, seeing as this forum has such a huge back catalogue and many old posters are no longer active. So, I found this old thread, begun by @Kingmonkey, that begins by imagining how the Dunk & Egg stories tie in thematically to the main series: It basically shows how the Tower of Joy echoes throughout the story in versions great and small. Great thread all round, with lots to chew on.

Many have speculated that the Bolton's skinning practices - their flayed man sigil and preferred torture methods etc. - could be cultural echoes, or remnants, of more ancient skinchanging practises. That they are a present-day literal embodiment of a more mystical custom of the past. So might the Burned Men mountain clan likewise be an echo of certain Targaryen fire magic rituals, possibly related to the dragon-bonding ritual? Customs Burned Men derive their name from their coming-of-age ceremony, in which they mutilate themselves by burning off a body part of their choosing, usually a finger or nipple. The more important the body part burned, the more prestige the warrior gains. They are feared by the other clans because of this practice. Red hands are war chiefs of the Burned Men. History The Burned Men are seemingly an offshoot of the Painted Dogs that branched off in the years after the Dance of the Dragons. They were said to have worshiped a fire-witch, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of her dragon to prove their manhood.[1] Gyldayn suggests this was Nettles and Sheepstealer. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Burned_Men Sure, they might simply be emulating certain 'fire magic' rituals - such as the one Varys speaks of when he lost his manhood to the fires. But their origin, bound up in Nettles and Sheepstealer, would seem to suggest these rituals may be remnants of some ritual involving dragons specifically. What do you think? Are the Boltons and the Burned Men meant to serve a similar function, just in terms of these 'echoes of ritual' they embody? Are there any other groups/clans/peoples in the world of ASOIAF whose customs likewise contain 'echoes' of magical rituals?

Exactly my point. You have to plan in advance for suspicious busybodies.

Not everyone is the king, is the simple answer. Ned is in the unique position of having to worry that the most powerful person in the realm might find out that Jon is a Targaryen. A person who has a famous inclination to kill every Targaryen he gets his hands on. If the need was great enough (and it clearly was), I'm sure Ned would have smart enough to realise this plan's merits, and therefore its potential. Besides, it's implied that some members of the Dayne family are involved in the events around Jon's birth, so we don't know that Ned did come up the idea on his own. The Daynes named a child Ned, in honour of ... someone who was responsible for Ashara killing herself? We're meant to find this a little odd, I think. And Ned Dayne knows the tale of Wylla being Jon's mother, so this at least is part of the lie which some Daynes are 'in the loop' about.

Ashara potentially being Jon's mother is essentially one of those 'worst-kept secrets'. The Winterfell servants talk about it until Ned orders the whispering to stop. A fact that would likely be uncovered if, say, Robert asked Varys to look into the matter more deeply. So Ned is playing his role exactly as everyone would expect him to, if Ashara was indeed the mother. Even to the point of giving the name Wylla to Robert when confronted about it. And if anyone weree to go to Starfall, that's the name they would hear there, too (as Arya learns from Ned Dayne). People wishing to put two and two together will never be satisfied until they are able to feel that they have resolved the answer themselves, so it would never be enough for Ned to say 'Ashara was his mother'. You'd always get sceptics. But by having two candidates for Jon's mother, Ned puts a double buffer between the truth of Lyanna and Jon. So Ned can let people speculate to their heart's content. Those who are too polite to enquire (or don't wish to incur Lord Stark's rage) are never going to be a problem. The ones who accept the answer of Wylla are likewise not a problem. And the ones who 'get it' and assume his mother is Ashara presumably know better than to push it and take the matter further. She killed herself and Ned took the baby back to Winterfell. The whole business was a tragic affair best left unearthed. Unless you're Cersei: You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? - Eddard XII Whether this was Ashara's child by Ned, or perhaps by Brandon (rumours, rumours) the fact would remain that 'damn cold-hearted Ned Stark' had taken a child of his blood away from his natural mother, leaving her bereft enough to commit suicide. Ned's reputation kind of confirms that this is exactly what he would do. And the suicide also puts an extra layer of 'maybe we should all just let it lie' around the event. Two red herrings are better than one.

I agree but then we enter the 'seeing the wood for the trees' territory. Because if an author can insert meanings into names he can also divert with red herrings. Or simply, that some names have to be 'background forest' within which to hide the trees. I'm always in favour of the search, however!! ... Also, a lot of the naming peculiarities seem to be his way of adding 'fantasy flavour' to the books, e.g. the famous Ser instead of Sir. This is not to say that he doesn't then go back to these stylistic naming patterns and decide to use them, in later books, to weave into his mysteries. I think his gardening style means that he's often as much opportunist as planner. So George might go back and find patterns in the books the same way we do, except in his case he has the authorial right to exploit these for his own ends. Not sure that even made sense. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I'm currently barking up several ASOIAF trees of my own right now and feeling quite frazzled. There might be a long post incoming ...

Nice catch. As well as being 'done with flaunting', Pia and Cersei are both presented with heads. It does seem as though GRRM is setting up Pia to be some kind of Cersei parallel in Jamie's chapters. As others have mentioned, Dany also undergoes a rebirth, losing her hair like Cersei, and is also 'presented with heads' by Daario. A whole mash-mash of rhyming for anyone who has the time to chase it down further ...

Nice ideas here. I haven't looked into the Maester's origins before, but this quote referring to pets did recall another quote, from Lazy Leo: Leo yawned. "The sea is wet, the sun is warm, and the menagerie hates the mastiff." He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. - AFFC Prologue The idea of The Citadel being a metaphorical zoo of sorts tickles me. They do rub that stuffed lemur a lot, too. Maybe this is more a nod to the fact that each Maester specialises in different links, and therefore have different specialisations. They are perhaps less 'united' than we might assume? A good avenue to pursue, I reckon.

I wish this had been the name of the thread, as I feel that it's the bigger talking point here How do we know for certain that the red gem exerts any 'pressure of will' on people rather than just glamour? This might be true. Another way to look at it is that the magical effects of the gem, of Lightbringer and producing the Shadow Babies have simply left Stannis's life-force kind of drained in general. And this overall lack of energy makes him more mentally susceptible, rather than having a direct magical effect. Perhaps Melisandre times her 'suggestions' to Stannis to coincide when she is drawing on his life-force to fuel some magic. The only reason I bother to quibble over the technicalities is because 'mental manipulation' has so far not been within Melisandre's range of abilities, and this would push her power levels significantly over the edge, no?

I meant to reply to this ages ago, @Craving Peaches sorry. I like the 'pineal' - third eye - pinecone shaped' connection, and it does seem like the kind of thing George would exploit, seeing as the third eye opening is such a recurring motif. This quote from AFFC - The Drowned Man might contain a number of things worth analysing: "I give you the wealth of the Stony Shore," Asha said as the first was upended. An avalanche of pebbles clattered forth, cascading down the steps; pebbles grey and black and white, worn smooth by the sea. "I give you the riches of Deepwood," she said, as the second chest was opened. Pinecones came pouring out, to roll and bounce down into the crowd. "And last, the gold of Winterfell." From the third chest came yellow turnips, round and hard and big as a man's head. They landed amidst the pebbles and the pinecones. If we take the weir wood net as being the ultimate 'third eye' then "Deep Wood" having a treasure that symbolises the pineal eye might not be a coincidence here. By inference, the other two treasures might also hold some hidden meaning?

This is one of the soundest assumptions here. I'd go one step further, and say that one man's hero can become another man's villain but then ultimately end up being everyone's happy compromise. I think Jon's arc, and probably Bran's too, will end in balance, not inhabiting either extreme.

Would the North be her first destination after leaving Braavos? It feels like closing her arc a little early. How about Tyrosh or Lys? We've never been there in the story and they might be a logical stopping-off point for Dany's army on the way to Westeros. It seems logical that GRRM would have a preference for 'fleshing out' some of these unvisited spots along the Narrow Sea before the story ends.

I found some other derivations: The name "Mander" is of Dutch origin and has several possible meanings and associations. One possible meaning is that it is derived from the Dutch word "mander," which means "basketmaker" or "weaver." This suggests that the name may have originally been an occupational surname for someone who was involved in the trade of making baskets or weaving. However, it is important to note that the exact etymology of the name is still debated among linguists and historians. https://www.nameopia.com/name/Mander.html Meandering and weaving are both things that a river might be said to do, so maybe that's what George was getting at?

We need an extinct houses thread. Actually, most posts in this thread deserve their own thread. But we seemed to be in a Stark-hate doom spiral instead .... Anyway, here is a fun place to start investigating: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Extinct_houses

No, he needs to go to Molar's Town ... badum tssh!

Having 26 separate threads (names from A-Z) actually sounds like my kind of heaven

I'd pay two.

I guess two 'Jons' in the book would be confusing, which also explains the JonCon titles sufficiently. Well, there must be more to it then. I'll reiterate GRRM's quote about the book titles, which I think might equally apply to his chapter titles: I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. That's what I'm striving for here. Possibly not all the chapter titles are meant to have deeper meanings, but I'll bet that enough of them do. For the most part they just seem fairly self-explanatory, though, and serve mainly to add flavour to the books. For me, the 'parallel stories' idea rings truest, as there is so little else to glean from the titles in the way of e.g. symbolism or wordplay. The Captain of the Guard, for example - such a dry title, I can't really see what deeper meaning there could be. Maybe this is one of those things that will all make sense in retrospect, once ADOS comes out ...