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About jlk7e

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  1. I mean, I think that I, personally, guessed R+L=J well before AGOT Eddard X. I'm not sure when, but probably by Eddard II? Then I spoiled myself on the internet to see if I was right. So I didn't think it was a very difficult secret to guess, personally. But it seemed like Martin didn't expect so many people would figure it out, and you get people saying things like "Well, Martin didn't expect that people would be able to spend years talking about it on the Internet". Obviously it's no longer really a secret now that the show verified it! Otherwise, yes, I agree with you - both that people know Lyanna died in Dorne at the Tower of Joy, at the same time as Lord Dustin (and probably, as the three Kingsguard), and that we don't know for sure if other people may have figured it out. But there are definitely characters who likely know the basics but who do not seem to have considered the idea - we are privy to the thoughts of a bunch of characters who know the basic facts - Jon himself, Catelyn, Tyrion, Theon, Jaime, Cersei, Jon Connington, Barristan, perhaps Melisandre and Sam, maybe even the Stark kids. There's other non-POV characters I think we'd have an inkling if they guessed it - Pycelle, Tywin, Robert, Jorah Mormont, Jeor Mormont, Maester Aemon, Maester Luwin. On the other side, Howland Reed obviously knows, and I'd guess that there's Wylla and some Daynes at Starfall who know (Ned Dayne might, too, but probably not). Jojen and Meera and Benjen may also know. As far as who might have guessed it, I'd not be at all surprised if Varys suspects the truth. Littlefinger, Lady Dustin, Wyman Manderly, Roose Bolton, Jon Arryn, the elder Martells, etc., could all have guessed it without us having any real idea of it.
  2. I think we're arguing past each other a bit. You are right - nobody in the text explicitly thinks about the possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna having had a child, or suggests anyone else thinks about it. Absolutely correct. What I am saying is that that is nuts. From a Doylist perspective, this is just bad world building - Martin is trying to keep his big secret, so he can't have anyone have already thought of it, so they haven't. But I don't think he's built a very good reason, within the story, for this to make sense. You keep saying "Nobody cares about Lyanna. She's ancient history." But this just isn't true. She's the new king's Great Lost Love, which is repeatedly made clear by Robert himself, by Ned, by Cersei, even by Renly! Her abduction is widely believed to have started the war, as I showed in my last post. It beggars belief that nobody (except maybe Varys) would consider the possibility of a child. I'm glad we agree that Robert could have put it together, but is probably not smart enough (and too emotionally involved) to do so. I'm also glad we agree that Varys might know - he definitely might, though as you say he's given no indication of it. What I'm saying is that the pieces that Robert has are actually pretty widely available to anyone who wants to think about it AND that there are plenty of people who would have reason to think about it. That they don't is down to authorial fiat that nobody had any curiosity about what happened after the fall of Storm's End. Also: Lyanna's fate is certainly relevant to Pycelle and Tywin's interest in getting Robert married to Cersei.
  3. I mean, you are going by what the text tells us. But we also need to make inferences about what people would reasonably do. But it's not a private matter, precisely because of the possibility that Lyanna was carrying Rhaegar's child. Which you're just assuming nobody would have thought about. Again: anyone who bothered to think about anything would have been concerned at the possibility that Lyanna was carrying Rhaegar's child. The idea that everyone would be like "Yup, she's dead now, and suddenly Ned Stark has a bastard son. No questions to be asked there!" is implausible. Especially people like Varys, whose whole thing is that he knows everything. (Of course, perhaps Varys does know) Indeed, but I think it must be *known* they were with Dayne. Otherwise there would be a mystery about their fates. Similarly - what on earth were Ned and Arthur Dayne fighting over? If nobody connects Dayne (and Hightower and Whent's) deaths with Lyanna, what do people think happened? You're just assuming people would be given a vague cover story and not ask any more questions. Most people perhaps. But certainly some people would be very interested. I can see how Robert is not smart enough to connect the pieces. Cersei's probably kept out of the loop so she only hears things second hand. But surely people like Varys, Pycelle, Tywin, and Jon Arryn would be thinking about questions like "What happened to three knights of the Kingsguard?" and "Did Lyanna stark bear Rhaegar's bastard?" It's not about Lyanna. It's about a possible son of the Crown Prince. Which would be of interest to literally anybody with a stake in either the Baratheon regime or restoring the Targaryens. Also, you're just wrong to say that "she's not even mentioned" as a cause of the war. Plenty of people think about Lyanna and say the war was fought over her, or instigated by her abduction. Here's AGOT Bran VII: Here's Catelyn associating Brandon's trip to King's Landing with Lyanna's abduction (ACOK Catelyn VII): Theon is familiar enough with the story to recognize Lyanna in a dream (ACOK Theon VI): Dany knows the story, presumably from Viserys (ASOS Daenerys IV), and views Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna as the cause of the war: Barristan certainly sees Lyanna's abduction as the cause of the war (ADWD The Kingbreaker): So does Kevan Lannister (ADWD Epilogue): ETA - Oh, and Maester Yandel too:
  4. I think you're assuming way less knowledge than is actually out there. If Robert knows that Ned found Lyanna somewhere south of Storm's End, then certainly other people know (Varys, e.g.). Certainly that Ned *found* her has to be known, because he took her body back to Winterfell with him, a statue was carved of her for the crypts, etc. That's a multi-person operation. I think you're also assuming an alarming lack of curiosity from everyone. Everyone should have been thinking that a Rhaegar/Lyanna bastard was a possibility as soon as she disappeared. When Ned Stark appears with a Stark bastard and Lyanna's body *at the same time*, any intelligent person should have been suspicious. And while you're right that nobody has specifically mentioned Hightower and Whent, well, what the fuck do people think happened to them? Everybody seems aware that they are dead (Jaime mentions them as being dead in ASOS Jaime VIII), and did not flee to Essos like Jon Connington or Willem Darry. Nobody says "Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower disappeared, but I never heard tell of them arriving in the Free Cities." It just seems to be generally assumed that they are dead. And what about the families of Ned's dead companions? What does Lady Dustin think happened to her husband? The Dustin men returning would have known he'd gone off with Ned after Storm's End. There must be some story about what happened. Presumably that story would have to involve finding Lyanna, because *everybody knows that Ned found Lyanna*. The idea that everyone would just forget about the girl whose abduction caused the war (something that a lot of our POVs think about) is implausible. I'm not saying anyone should have *known* that Jon was Lyanna's child by Rhaegar. I'm saying that, given the number of different theories for Jon's origin that we've heard, it's bizarre that nobody seems to have even suspected or guessed at the truth, which is a lot less implausible than, say, Lord Borrell's story. Especially because people like Varys and Pycelle and Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister should have been on the lookout for a Rhaegar/Lyanna bastard.
  5. So here's my question, and forgive me if this has been discussed to death: Why doesn't every informed character in Westeros suspect the truth about Jon's parentage? Because I think we overestimate how good a job Ned has done hiding the truth here. Here's what's more or less common knowledge about the story: 1) Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna and "raped" her. (as Robert describes it inin AGOT Eddard I) 2) After the sack of King's Landing and the relief of Storm's End, Ned Stark rode with a small band of companions to find her. (Certainly anyone who was with Ned at Storm's End must have known that he rode south with a few companions, right?) 3) They found her in Dorne, where they fought three King's Guards who were protecting her. Only Ned Stark and Howland Reed survived the fight. Lyanna died shortly thereafter, of unclear causes. Ned brought her body back to Winterfell. (Catelyn knows Ned killed Arthur Dayne, at any rate in AGOT Catelyn II; Robert knows Ned was with Lyanna when she died in AGOT Eddard I) 4) Around the same time, Ned Stark also brings back a Stark-looking bastard son from Dorne. (Wylla and Ashara Dayne, the two suspected mothers, are both apparently Dornish; Edric Dayne believes Jon Snow was born in Dorne in ASOS Arya VII) So, just after witnessing the mysterious and unexplained death of his raped sister, Ned Stark suddenly has a bastard son, whom he then takes back to Winterfell and raises with his trueborn children. I mean, I don't think anyone would necessarily *know for sure* that Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son from this. But isn't it an obvious thing to suspect? What did people think Lyanna died of? Surely "Lyanna might be pregnant with Rhaegar's son" would be a thing many people would have considered from the time of the kidnapping until the time of Lyanna's death, right? Like I can understand how, if you're coming at it from the Jon side, people might not think about it. But surely people would be coming at it from the Lyanna side? And from that side, well, the sudden appearance of a bastard son of Ned Stark *in Dorne* ought to be incredibly suspicious. Am I missing something here?
  6. Surely "the only non-psychopathic candidate at the Kingsmoot" is a significant role. The point was that the Ironborn were presented with three options - Victarion's mindless attempt to continue his brother's stupid policies, Asha's attempt to work constructively towards a positive-sum peace, and Euron's megalomaniacal insanity - and they choose the worst one. If it's just a choice between Victarion and Euron, it doesn't have nearly the same power. But I've no idea where they're going with the Iron Islands story.
  7. He absolutely did not, as far as I'm aware. At best, he kind of implied it without making any kind of clear statement.
  8. Gay men have fathered children throughout recorded history. They do it in the usual way. Renly is about 20 and Gendry is 13 or 14. That's why he can't be Gendry's father. I'd say, though, that, as an unacknowledged bastard, Gendry has no rights to the throne whatever. Even Edric Storm, an acknowledged bastard, has no rights to the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if Gendry ends up as Lord of Storm's End in the event of the complete extinction of the legitimate Baratheon line (I doubt Stannis and Shireen will live out the series). But I'd be shocked if he ends up as King.
  9. You really think that's what will happen? Don't you think that would be a rather anticlimactic end to Jaime's story?
  10. On what basis do you think she can save only one? I thought that, very explicitly, the Brotherhood was saying that she could save both of them if she betrayed Jaime.
  11. It's certainly perfectly logical for it to be Garlan, but it makes more emotional sense for it to be Loras, since he's the one with the deep connection to Renly. Garlan (whom I actually like as a character) is just some dude we've never seen before. I guess that Garlan is probably going to be written out of the series, which is too bad, but hopefully they can give some of his role in the story to Loras - having Loras be respectful to Tyrion and kind to Sansa would be totally reasonable, I think, since he's just kind of a petulant prick in the books.
  12. In the books, Garlan, Loras's older brother, is Renly's ghost. Loras is fighting as himself. I think the TV version makes more sense.
  13. There is absolutely no chance they will do that. Why on earth would they cut out Arya's entire Storm of Swords story? She has the most chapters of any character in that book. After Storm of Swords, she has five chapters where very little happens. She said she was 4. Are people really so emotionally committed to the age difference between Cersei and Tyrion to the point that they're willing to pretend they didn't change it on the show? It's pretty obvious that Dinklage is not 9 years younger than Headey and Coster-Waldau, so this makes perfect sense.
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