Lyanna Stark

Posting this here since I thought perhaps it fit better than to get to lengthy in the September reading thread (and I have a tendency to get lengthy )

This is a reply to the eloquent post by SeanF in the other thread on the Sarantine mosaic.

On 12/09/2016 at 4:26 PM, SeanF said:

A very interesting write up. I agree with a lot of what you say/

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I also thought it unrealistic that so many beautiful aristocratic women would fall for Crispinus, who is, after all, a long way down from them socially. 

My impression was that Styliane cared for nothing other than avenging her father's death.  Not even the prospect of becoming Empress really interested her, which is where Valerius went wrong;  he thought that Styliane had figured out that she and Leontes would succeed Alixana and him in due course, and that she'd be satisfied with this.

I viewed Gisel differently to you.  I thought she was a remarkably cold-blooded woman, who didn't leave any potential loose ends hanging around.  She had her six guards killed, for fear that any one of them might have overheard her conversation with Crispinus, and she made sure of Styliane by the end.  I don't doubt she would have had Alixana killed, had the latter ever emerged from hiding, and I suspect Alixana was aware of this.  My impression of Gisel was that she was advancing the interests of Gisel, much more than the interests of her own people.

The high points of the story for me were the chariot races, the scene on the island when Crispinus and Alixana visit Styliane's brother, the confrontation between Valerius and his assassins, and the hunt for Alixana through the city.

As an aside, Byzantine history is full of extremely interesting women.  Theodora rising from being a prostitute, to co-ruler of the Roman Empire and canonised as an Orthodox saint;   Irene, who was chosen to be Empress by means of a beauty contest, and (not exactly overflowing with maternal sentiment) later blinded her own son in order to seize the throne and restore the veneration of icons (she was almost made a saint);  Anna Comnena, a gifted intellectual who tried to murder her own brother to secure the throne, Theophano, who murdered two husbands and was the mother of probably the greatest Emperor (Basil II) all read like characters from far-fetched novels, but their stories are true. 

 

 

Very interesting of how the Byzantine history was populated by many interesting women. I had heard of a few, but not all of them, and not in detail. It makes me want to read non-fiction of the history of the area. Maybe something for next year's holiday!

Regarding the comments above:

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Thank you, @Lyanna Stark! From what you've described I think I'll give Lions of Al-Rassan a go. If you don't mind, what type of setting is it?

It's more or less a medieval Spain sort of setting, with countries/cities/rulers emulating the muslim/christians and jewish cultures and people, more or less.

33 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Mieville is another author I need to give a second chance to. I was... not a fan of King Rat, but from what I understand that one was not characteristic  of his work at all.

I just started Railsea, but my favourite is The Scar. I think you'd like it. It takes a while for it to get going, but oh my God, it is something else. If you do read it, let me know if you love or hate the ending, or maybe lovehate it. Only Mieville novel I have read twice. It was extremely odd going from Kay's very lyrical and flowing prose, to Leckie's matter of fact, no-nonsense almost brusque writing to Mieville's modernist style, complete with made-up words and odd punctuation. It's the same language, but it actually doesn't *feel* like it. Of the three, Kay's prose is by far the most beautiful, almost like music, or poetry.

@3CityApache I'm glad you think Tigana is up there with Lions! I now have hope.

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

So, to resurrect old topic, I finally started The Last Light Of The Sun, and I can't tell if I love it or hate it. Well written so but so far veyr predictable, although I am not that far in and I do read way to much Viking fiction, and these things all tend to start out the same.

This thread also reminds me how much I HATED Tigana in high school.

 

I just ordered Tigana and now you make me nervous when you say you hated it. It was a used copy tho so if I end up hating it I haven't lost a lot of money!

How're the vikings coming along?

2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Have you enjoyed all of his works? Or, are there some that your not too keen on? I dont read Bakker for the philosophy, lol! 

I read the Fionavar ages ago, and it's...long? Derivative, nicely written, some of it will probably feel very formulaic nowadays, but it's also beautiful, in its own way. A lot of mythology. Lions of Al-Rassan is 100% brilliant. If it does not tug on your heartstrings you are made of stone. The Sarantine mosaic was very good. Clever, stylised and with amazing symmetry. The setting, especially in the second novel, is amazing and second to none, I think. Sarantium is really a place, you can feel it when you read. Kay's prose is very, very good too. Beautiful, but at the same time not complicated. You don't need to sit with a thesaurus next to you to get through the text (I am looking at you China Mieville) or trudge through a bazillion songs (Tolkien) or meandering/rants about philosophy (Bakker/Erikson). More...lyrical, perhaps?

Haven't got to the others yet tho, but so far they have been absolutely worth reading, despite their flaws (which are very, very few for Lions btw).

Random, but did anyone else miss Garlan Tyrell? I honestly don't know how Tyrion could have made it through that entire wedding without Good Guy Garlan being extra nice to him to counterbalance all the shit Joff was throwing his way

(And bummer, I would have loved to see the "Garlan put the poison in the cup" theory confirmed in the show)

Yeah I know right? I still remember Ragnorak being saddened by the "Garlan the Not So Gallant" theory. :lol:

Still, I normally find the difference between the novels and TV show jarring, but I do think they got most of the nuances just right with this episode.

- Sansa's grief was so obvious and it was also obvious that everyone at the wedding (minus the Lannisters perhaps) knew about it. Especially the scene where the wolf's head was lopped off the dwarf fighters was just heartbreaking. :( Making Olenna's throwing Sansa under the bus together with Tyrion even colder.

-Olenna murdering Joffrey was brilliantly done, you could see her fussing over Sansa, then zoom to the necklace missing a stone and then zoom again to Olenna just before Joffrey picked up his cup. It was also plain that the murder would be pinned on Sansa+Tyrion with how they both touched the cup before Jofffey took it. Neatly explained.

- LOL to all the "Jaime and Brienne are just friends" romance haters. There must have been some teeth grinding there.

- Stannis the Kinslayer. I wonder if this is a setup so that Stannis' darker path will have a proper turn at the end of the season when he gets to rescue Jon Snow? It's also pretty clear that he is being lead by Melisandre as she is his only key to beat the odds, you might say. Even if it jarred that he called Ser Axel Florent "infidel", I still think the spirit of the burning is not all wrong. Old Stannis (pre-Mel) would not have burnt Ser Axel. Her influence on him is not all that healthy.

- Is this the end of Tyrion the white washed? Here was saw a bit of Holier Than Thou and Better Than Thou attitude a la my Lord of Lannister just like his self-deceptive relationship with Shae in the novels.

"War's unwomanly face" is of course not anti-soviet (received prize of Lenin's Comsomol after all), but everything she's written since(the red person penthology) and which constitutes a main body of her work(not to mention various interviews where she compared communism to anthrax) is more than enough to get the "sovereign democracy", "defender against soulless West and it's agents", "fighter against Russophobia", "champion of Russian traditional values and the unique way of Russian people" crowd to come with pitchforks and torches and the USSR 2.0-Stalinobus-"anti-communism = russophobia" crowd won't be far behind.

Far be it from me to argue with the USSR 2.0-Stalinobus-"anti-communism" = "russophobia" crowd. :lol:

She is not a big name and her work is very politicized, there's bound to be talk of how the academy gave the prize to reward her political opinions, bias, last dictatorship in Europe et cetera.Also her politc are very anti-soviet, anti-communist, pro western, I don't know how much of it will reach english speaking world, but in post-soviet countries there is going to be a shitstorm.

"War's unwomanly face" has been criticised for glorifying the Soviet union and could probably only be considered anti-Soviet propaganda by someone 110% over sensitive. While reading it, I too thought that there was definitely more about pride in Russia/Soviet than condemnation, although it was pointed out in the beginning that some of the less glorifying bits had been censored initially and only reinstated much later.

However, I was surprised that she got nominated since I thought her works were easy to read and not at all inaccessible. :p

Also, congratulations to Munro!

I assume you're referring to the "you sound like a bloody woman" line, in calling Brienne a sexist. I really disagree here, I thought it was quite clear that if Brienne meant anything by her comment it was mocking sexism and Westerosi attitudes towards women.

How is "You sound like a bloody woman" mocking sexism? Explain it to me like I was very, very slow, since it really needs careful explaining to make sense, at all. Unless we're in backwards land, perhaps.

I have a feeling that this will be a waste of time, but here I go.

1. The pod mention was 30 seconds long.

The Pod mention is pointless, has nothing to do with Pod's character and nothing with actual plot. Shitloads of actual plot has been cut, and this has been inserted for what reason? It's not funny, it's not entertaining and it doesn't make any point.

2. What is wrong with Sansa marrying Loras?

Book!Sansa is offered Willas, a much older cripple who she has not met. She is not offered to marry some handsome dude she fancies. Book!Sansa struggles with Willas as a choice and her disappointment at it not being Loras, but judges that it's still a better offer than being a Lannister pawn and that she will do her utmost to make Willas love her. It's a big step forward in Sansa's character development and denotes her increasing realism. Loras adds nothing of this, it's pointless as far as character development goes.

3. Why was the BwB botched?

A multitude of reasons which are better placed in the Arya re-read thread as it would need an essay.

4. Excluding that single comment by Brienne, why were the Jaime/Brienne scenes botched? Also, not sure the bloody woman comment was a sign of her sexism, more a way of motivating Jaime.

Random fight scene instead of the actual dialogue. The bloody woman comment is exactly sexism since Brienne is trying to shame Jaime with comparing him to, that's right, a woman. And book!Brienne does not hate being a woman, she does not say or act in derogatory fashion towards women. A lot of what Brienne's story line deals with is just her struggles because she is a woman. Why is she belittling herself? It makes absolutely no sense.

5. What is incomprehensible about the Varys/QoT scene?

Varys is not involved in the Sansa plot line at all in ASOS. He does not tell the QoT. If Varys tells her, it makes her look incompetent. In the novels the QoT and the Tyrells figure out themselves that they need to marry Sansa to Willas (not Loras) without having Varys spell out the painfully obvious to them. So on the one hand, the QoT is going on about how men should not rule yada yada, on the other hand, she needs to be hand held by Varys to figure out that Sansa is the next heir to the north, when anyone with half a brain could figure that out. It ruins the QoT's character and makes her seem like a crotchety old woman, not the schemer she is in the novels.

6. They cant just have Theon disappear for two seasons, and they need to introduce Ramsay's cruelty and cunning.

Oh indeed, but why do it in such a random fashion? Could anyone follow the internal logic in what was going on? My SO has seen the episode twice and he still has no idea what that was all about. I've read the novels more than once, and I have no idea what that was about.

Ugh, botched BwB scenes, terribly botched Brienne/Jaime scenes (Brienne is a sexist since when??), Theon was a big ??, Varys spilling the beans to the QoT is incomprehensible and makes her seem daft, the Pod thing is a waste of time, Varys, Tyrion and the "sorcerer" in the box was added why? Sansa is now marrying Loras?

It's like someone read the novels and thought they were kinda crap and needed some fanfic editing. :stillsick:

The only saving grace was Dany in Astapor and Mormont, the rest was really a mish mash of botched stuff and irrelevant additions.

I just wanted to say that I always figured that Brienne had yelled "sword" and all of the other guesses were the result of people just making it way too complicated for no good reason. :P

Yes!

So how many are for Trial by Combat, Brienne vs "The Hound" aka Lem Lemoncloak? (If this happens Lummel owes me some beer really nice afternoon tea. :P )

Strange that we all see things so differently. Tyrion's 'Lady Stark...' line was my absolute favorite in the entire episode. I thought it was the perfect movie moment, in that it conveyed a world of recognition and respect in just a few words. With that line, Tyrion is saying (in my interpretation) that he was extremely impressed with the dignity, maturity and sheer grown-up class with which Sansa handled herself following that terrible public humiliation. I believe he meant it as a salute to a girl Stark who'd handled herself as magnificently as if she'd been a Lady Stark. I loved it! Loved it!

Then you love something that is not in the books, or even hinted at in the books. That's not wrong, but it's definitely different, just sayin'. That whole scene was different, too, so obviously they are changing the Sansa - Hound interaction to something different they think will work better on screen. Or something.

It's one thing to say "OMG the Mountain is too short!!" another thing to question why certain dialogue choices were lifted for no apparent reason, or why the interaction between certain characters were changed, while the characters were still there and the scene was set, so to speak.

I thought they aced the Tickler! He was made of win. Well, not of win, but of all sorts of creepy stuff! I didn't mind how Arya added Polliver to the list, he was already in the last episode and the whole thing had to be shortened down to fit, and I wouldn't want him to be missed out.

So there. In my opinion, it was a worthwhile scene. And people on these forums actively look for things to complain about in both the books and the show.

Right, so the second*** thing I have complained about for the first 13 episodes is somehow not worthwhile. I'll keep that in mind.

Beyond this, the show is getting a much richer portrayal of Shae than the books. In the books, you only saw her from Tyrion's perspective, this sweet little sex kitten, precious beyond anything and maybe-possibly returning his feelings of affection. In this scene, we get to see her interacting with someone else, which highlights how she's just sort of entitled and bitchy. It brings to life the "I didn't want to do real people work, so I ran off and started selling my body" sort of mentality she has.

Which is by the way not at all like book!Shae, which has been debated to death on the forums. And I am ok with the change to Shae, I can live with that. Sansa being bitchy tho, it changes her character.

*** this and Ros.

just off the top of my head, sansa could have told the truth. Joffrey stumbled upon arya and mycha playing with sticks, and decided to whip his sword out and threaten them for no reason other then he could.

Surely they wouldnt have killed mycha at that point.

The truth would have saved Mycah how? The Hound had already been sent off after Mycah, nothing Sansa would have said could have stopped it.

You are also conflating what happened at the river with what happened after. Nothing Sansa could have done at the river could have stopped Joffrey from whipping out his sword, the interrogation came later.

Ummm.. I'd say until being with Littlefinger in the Vale, she's pretty damn bitchy. It's pretty bitchy to let your sister's little friend take the fall because you have a crush on a prince. And by ally, I don' mean in the way sense. I mean in the sense that she has no friends in KL (at this point), no one to talk to. So instead of seeing Shae as someone who is there to help her out, she yells at her, she totally freaks out.

It's so obvious that she was taking out all her frustrations and anger on this random woman come to see her. It's like when your boss at work yells at you, and then you go home and yell at your spouse. It's deflected anger.

No, she isn't. Link me one quote from ACOK or ASOS where Sansa is bitchy. One. I beg you.

And she doesn't yell at Shae in the books. Shae and Sansa are not in the same room until ASOS and Shae is originally Lolly's Stokeworth's maid.

May I ask, have you actually read the books? In that case you would know that Shae was Lolly's maid, not Sansa's and that Sansa at no point shouts at her. Ever.

As for your faulty assumption that "she makes her little sister's friend take the fall", Cersei had sent the Hound out to kill Mycah for laying a hand of the prince of the blood (Joffrey). What should Sansa have done to prevent it? Fought him? Something else? The notion that Sansa could have done something about that is ridiculous. And this, by the way, happened in AGOT. Not in ACOK.

Have you? Sansa and Jeyne poole whinnying whenever they see Arya, her telling Arya "It will be a SPLENDID feast, you shan´t be wanted", her opinion of Mycah and od Arya interacting socially with PEASANT SCUM, she doesn´t even go into the stables because they are such terribly smelly places... and you think she isn´t bitchy? Yes, she can be very sweet and pleasant ... to lordlings and princes.

And which book is that? ACOK? No, it's in AGOT. In ACOK Sansa is never bitchy, not once. This season is ACOK; not AGOT.

The whole point of Sansa's development in late AGOT and later on is to dissuade her of the notions of shallow prettiness and valiant knights which she held in AGOT. This should be impossible to miss.

I agree. They should have changed the Sansa/Shae scene to Sansa/Sandor or Sansa/Joffrey. It would have been a lot more meaningful.

I hope they show the scene when Sansa bumps into drunk Sandor when she's coming back from the godswood. I loved that part in the book!

Well, I just wonder if there will be time for a lot of Sansa/Joffrey or Sansa/Sandor since instead we get a good scene illustrating how sad and terrible Sansa feels (the one with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella) and then it's like "oh btw, in case you were really thick and missed that Sansa was sad and wretched, her she is even more sad and wretched but now with extra bitchiness!"

Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Oh and count me in as one of the people really waiting for the Tickler.

I thought Sansa was totally bitchy in the books... and it makes sense that she is being hard on Shae. She has no power, no say, she can't speak her mind, so she is going to explode at someone, somewhere. I thought that whole Sansa/Shae scene really showed how hard of a time Sansa is having... she just yelled at her only potential ally.

Sansa is not bitchy in the books, how on earth are you reaching that conclusion? Have you READ the books at all?

And what "only potential ally"? Shae is supposed to be Sansa's ally how? And why? Seriously, no. It's not anywhere in the books, nowhere.

We could have got some real Sansa exposition, some interaction with the Hound, her torment with Joffrey, anything. Instead we get....Shae. They have what? Two scenes together in ASOS? Ridiculous, just utterly, utterly bad.

Sansa's ASOS arc is going to come straight out of the blue and her interaction with Dontos and the Hound? Ignored. Completely and utterly ignored.

Fabulous episode apart from one bit: Sansa Shae.

Rant warning:

What on EARTH was this supposed to be? Showing that Sansa is bitchy or what? She isn't bitchy in the books so it's just a complete deviation from her character. It made no sense plotwise and was just totally bewildering. We get time showing Sansa with Shae, but no time showing Sansa with, well anything plot related? Tommen and Myrcella get more interesting comments than Sansa. Come on! It's too bad as well since apart from that I thought the episode was the best this season.

So, that bit? Utter, total bollocks.

It's not needed to "foreshadow" the wedding either since Shae has no part in that, and Tyrion already does by talking about marriages being made for alliances.

0.o!!!

You stole my user name?