Howdyphillip

I gave this episode the lowest mark of the season with a 7. It was still excellent, but bereft of action as understandably next week will be the penultimate episode of the season. I didn't think that a lot of the acting was up to standard either in particular the love scene between Rob and whoever the hell she is. The Jaime/Brienne scene was a little stiff as well.

Cause otherwise it isn’t believable that Robb would get himself hitched to somebody he’s fighting against. The Westerlings are Lannister bannerman, after all. So the showrunners needed to find a way to make it believable. If he doesn’t think of her as an enemy, then maybe he can toss her a bone without fearing it’ll get nipped off by filed-down teeth.

So you are saying that the story as it is written by GRRM is unbelievable? Stop, take a breath, and think for a minute. I am sure you have a valid point here, but it just hasn't been delivered? Are you trying to say that the plot of Jeyne may be too convoluted to come across easily to a TV audience?

If you are all correct that Jon had not decided to let her go, but had decided to kill her then it confirms my greatest fear: He’s chasing her because they have nothing else for him to do.

The reason that the scene works for me is because it is a way for the writers to show us the conflicting ideas about his vows and Ygrette that is only made known to the reader by John's thoughts. That is the crucial narrative out of the books with this sub plot, and I thought that the spooning scene was brilliant as it conveyed that message in an easy way for the viewer to understand.

I don't rest my feelings on Myrcella or anything like that -- but we do try to be complete in noting all changes, that included (and as greywolf says, that actually helps define Myrcella...)

But the Lorch scene is bad TV, badly staged and badly written, with a humorous tone that's I'll-befitting the spirit of the novels. Can you imagine GRRM having written that scene and playing it for a laugh as the show did? I can't, and so it fails both tests, badly. I find it unaccountable how so few critics have noticed the lazy, dissonant writing of the Lorch scene (and the one before it, for that matter), but in any case, it felt symptomatic of an episode that leaned too heavily on contrivances that would get Mad Men or Breaking Bad or Justified taken to the woodshed by critics if scenes that were as contrived and clumsy made it onto those shows.

And again, there was some terrific writing in there, which is why the unevenness is all the more disappointing.

In the end, it's a sea of opinions. Read the ones that speak to you, and hang the rest.

Although I can agree with the fact that the tone of the Lorch scene didn't fit in with the novel, I personally didn't find it particularly egregious, or an example of bad television writing. I didn't even realize that other guards were not chasing after Arya until after I read the episode analysis. I can easily overlook this as sometimes in life, things don't happen in the ways that we perceive would be the "right" way.

As far as bringing a bit of humor in dark and dangerous situations, I see this all of the time in shows like Breaking Bad.

The incident of dissolving bodies in the bathtub comes to mind immediately.

The show is intense. It needs moments of humor to break up the peril these characters find themselves in. I completely understand why the writers approached this scene in the manner they did. It also helps establish just what kind of assassin that Jaqen H'ghar is. Reading about this character gave me the impression that his abilities were almost super human. This scene helps establish that.

I don't think this is the best scene of the episode, but I personally didn't find it distracting, and found a lot to enjoy in watching it.

With few exceptions this season, I have agreed with this websites analysis of episodes. Whether I have agreed or disagreed, they have always been poignant, insightful, and great to read. This weeks edition is no exception to the latter, but I have an almost diametrically opposed outlook on the episode itself.

Starting with the sack of Winterfell. I was with this scene the entire way until the emergence of Ser Rodrik Cassel. It was well shot, well written, and emotionally engaging the entire way. The problem I had was the content. There is a huge difference in my mind of killing a mouthy commoner and executing the man who helped raise Theon and trained him how to use a sword. It is absolutely plot essential that the character of Theon Greyjoy becomes redeemed for the future of this series. By eliminating the Reek character to take the blame for the majority of the dastardly actions is going to make it that much harder for the television audience to do. I do console myself with the fact that there have been other changes made to the character that makes this a bit more possible.

I don't really like the setting of Iceland as the backdrop for North of the Wall. It is too barren for me to believe that there are 100,000 wildlings living off the land. It also looks like a miserable place to film. That is good in the sense that on screen, we can see that the characters are actually cold, but because of this, I also get the impression that they aren't able to give their best performances. Dialogue just feels rushed in these scenes, and I don't blame the actors. It is freezing out side in this location. I personally would rather have seen North of the Wall left in last years location of Ireland.

The main complaint that I hear about these scenes with John Snow and Ygritte I had no problem with though. Yes, it is a change from the book, but as of this episode, it doesn't take away from either of the characters. I have no problem with John running after a fleeing wildling. We only have so much room in the TV series, and the meat of the story here is Snow's relationship with the wildlings and Ygrette. As for why Ghost didn't chase her with John, my question would be if you had trained your animal, wouldn't you have given it a command to unleash it on someone? As he was running after her to capture, it makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't have called his direwolf to do a job that he himself had decided that he wasn't going to do. I also particularly liked the scene where Ygrette was teasing John. I thought it was a brilliant way of showing physically the struggles that Snow went through in his head that we just can not be privy to in the medium of film.

I took no issue with Harrenhall at all. I liked the mix up in communication for several reasons. It highlighted that Tywin was surrounded by incompetents in the war. This was not extolled upon in the books as we didn't have a POV in his camp, but it must have been happening for him to have lost so many battles decisively. It also again gave us the opportunity to realize that Arya is incredibly sharp witted. I particularly liked the humanization of Tywin as a man who loved his children, but was hard as stone. I think that Arya saw a little bit of her own father in him, and I think that fits perfectly with the theme that there are no heroes, or villains in this world.

As a reader, I obviously had the foreknowledge that Arya was not going to be discovered by Littlefinger. The vast majority of people watching this show have not read the books, and I thought that this scene built up a bit of suspense for them. I also thought that the urgent need to use her second name was a clever way of getting rid of it. I can see the point that no other gaurds helped Lorch in trying to detain Arya, but it did not immediately pop out to me as particularly egregious. I didn't even realize it until that had been pointed out.

Since I have nothing to say about the riot of King's Landing except that it was absolutely brilliant in every aspect of my mind, I will wrap this up with Quarth. From reading the books, I never got the impression that the entire city was supposed to be other worldly. The Quarth in my mind doesn't look too terribly different from the one that I am being shown. I did get the sense that the House of the Undying was like a 70's acid trip, but the rest of Quarth just seemed to be filled with people of ambition. I personally liked Dany's interaction with the spice lord. It showed her as a naive youth, but also as a person who had the potential to come into serious power and leadership abilities. It justifies her journey later as we as viewers know that she has to mature. As far as the dragons go, This is just another example of John getting clobbered across the head by Craster. It won't mean anything in the long run

After rating the show three 10's in a row, I dropped off to an 8 this week. In hindsight, last weeks episode should have ended the moment of Renly's death, and as has been pointed out, that particular scene left a lot to be desired. Opening wan ep with the death just didn't convey the significance of the act to me. The other point deducted for me was for Quarth scenes, particularly the change in fashion.

The acting continues to be amazing, but special props goes out tonight for all of the actors under 5 feet tall. Maisie should start clearing room on her shelves for all of the awards, Peter Dinkledge was his usual, brilliant self, Isaac Hempstead-Wright is shining with every appearance, and even Art Parkinson did an outstanding job last night with no speaking lines. Without a word he perfectly nailed Rikon.

I wanted to comment about the votes for extremely low scores on this episode. A score of 1 would be at least tied for the worst thing that someone has seen on television. I find that extremely reactionary, but can understand and appreciate someone being so upset the show didn't nail their vision that it is painful for them to watch...

It is the scores of 2-3 range that make me chuckle. I just picture someone watching the show in agony telling themselves how much they hate it, but then getting really exited for 20 seconds when they show the one particular thing they don't have a problem with, and then go back to scowling when it is over.

All those Houses aren't going to support someone who can't have a true heir (hence the political marriage to Margaery).

And why would Renly not be able to procure a true heir? Should I give a blow by blow here on how babies are made?

There were four fairly non refutable gay kings of England as well. Richard 1st (Richard the lionhearted), Willem II, Edward II, and James I. Out of these four, only Willem II did not marry. Richard did not produce an offspring, but James I and Edward II did.

My point is, is that Renly's sexuality was well known across the seven kingdoms, as a wide verity of characters talked about it in the books.

never mind

The Lannister guards gossiping about Loras/Renly - Really? At the west end of the continent, two low level sentries know about the King's Uncle and his 'secret' homosexual relationship with one of the sons of the Lord of High Garden. Is it a big deal that Renly needs to keep his homsexuality secret or not? Apparently not, given everybody knows.

This was a loving nod from the producers of the show to fans of the books.Specifically fans who go to forums to discuss the books. This same discussion has been going on here for years and years. I fail to see how terrible this is.

As for comments made about Renly's homosexuality, there is several clues all over the books spoken by people from all over the realm. It was obviously a known thing about him.

Ugghhh I KNOW RIGHT?!! How dare these people interrupt your circle jerk with their own varying and diverse opinions? If they dare to post on these boards with opinions that differ from yours, they are totally wasting everyone's time, including their own AND there must be something wrong with their BRAINS!!!! Clearly, as evidenced by the fact that they don't agree with every blessed word that's coming off your divinely inspired fingertips, they don't properly appreciate the HBO series, like you do, and it's just an art form entirely wasted on them! ONLINE FORUMS ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU 100%, ANYONE ELSE IS AN IDIOT AND CAN SHOW THEMSELVES THE DOOR!

Do you have an opinion to discuss? I am very open for an honest discourse on the merits of viewing the show as a purist, or one who enjoys the adaptations. All I see here is vitriol.

I don't think everyone should agree with me, as i have pointed out in a later post. I enjoy discussion, or else I wouldn't be in a forum. I just don't understand what it is you want me to discuss here..

There are several discussions in this very thread about reasons that people did or did not like a scene. Some of them are very well thought out, and elucidated thoroughly. I will use Rockroi's example of what he didn't like about the Garden of Bones scene as an example. He explained very well what he didn't like with the inconsistencies he saw in the characters and their motivations. Another poster retorted with their own ideas that differed from him, and pointed out a different viewpoint. He validated his viewpoint with evidence from the books and TV show. All of these things are productive to a discussion.

I contrast that with posts that just basically point out how the TV show and book are different ergo the poster hated it. The later, I find to be narrow minded. We have all read the books here. Some of us dozens and dozens of times over the spans of years. Spotting discrepancies can be cool. endlessly whining about them for their own sake grows a little tiresome for me. Just as you have the right to be happily unhappy about the changes in this series, I have the right to talk about what i think about this.

In short... Get the fuck over it... Feel free to take my advice, or not however you so choose.

Concerning Ros...

Everyone indeed is entitled to their own opinion. If someone wants to have a sense of outrage that characters have been changed and added to this show, that is perfectly legitimate. I personally take a great bit of delight in noting the changes from the books, although I leave anger out of the equation now. I came to a quick realization that all I would be doing by maintaining my frustration is denying myself enjoyment in this show.

What I am suggesting, is that those who fume every time they see a change from the series and the books "get the fuck over it". Anyone here is free to take my advice, or reject it. I personally believe that watching these scenes for what they are on your television screens have merit, good story telling, are superbly acted, and are consistent to the overall theme of the story. I didn't believe that when I viewed them with lenses that were clouded by anger at the changes.

edited to say that I have no desire for anyone in these forums to STFU... I love the differing of opinions that we have here, and I relish the opportunity to discuss this show from different viewpoints.

10 again... I dare you to find a better episode of anything on television this week.

For the person who gave this episode a one....

Please go watch The Star Wars Christmas special and compare.

I am dumbfounded that someone would get through watching this great pile of awesomeness and then run immediately to their computer to start complaining about it. Here are some facts...

1. The TV show is not the books. It is based on the books. It is also being translated with as much care and appreciation as any work of fantasy that I have ever seen. This includes the LOTR movies by Peter Jackson. I actually think this is much closer to the books.

2. The characters are not the exact same characters. First of all, to eliminate confusion, some characters have been merged with other character, and some have taken on different personalities. The point, is that the overall story arc is still being lovingly told here. I try not to judge any performance based on the book character, but instead base it on how well they are acted. So far the level of acting in this series is as remarkable as anything that i have ever seen on television, including Shae, Peter Baelish, and Joffery. They are nailing their performances every time. They are all achieving the emotional discourse that they are being directed in outstandingly.

3. Ros is a character on the show. Get the fuck over it. Her role is not a waste of space, she is providing a great narrative, and she is smoking hot. She is also nailing her role. the look of fear on her face as Joffrey forces her to beat her fellow worker was some of the best acting on tonight's episode, and as I already mentioned, this is remarkable because of how well acted this series is.

Harle, if you mean that Got will get the same reception as Trublood which is the highest rated show in the history of HBO, then I certainly hope you are right.

10...

The only reason that I don't give it an 11 is because I lost my amp.

I really missed Ros this week. She should have been the whore in Pyrcells chamber...

OK....OK... I am trolling here

Well no. He must have thought he sent the boys away to another village or something. How could he guess he was sacrifcing them to White walkers? He pieced together that the sons were sent away, not just the manner of which it was done, which is why Jon is so disgusted/surprised.

So... Your theory is the guy who marries and rapes his daughters, and keeps them captive against their will suddenly becomes a humanitarian with his sons... OK, I'll let you go with that one

Here is my biggest complaint about this episode... The opening sequence showed Dragonstone and the Dothraki wasteland and we didn't go there. I thought that each opening was tailor made to reflect the locations that we would visit in that episode.

Other than that, This episode was just about perfect. The best actor in the show turns out to be a twelve year old girl. My god Miasie was phenomenal again tonight. Someone should nominate her for an emmy this year. Peter Motherf$%##^&g Dinkledge was outstanding as well. All of the Tyrion scenes were not only brilliantly written, but superbly delivered as well. Gwendolyn Christie IS Brienne. As that character is one of my largest book crushes, I can't wait until she meets me in real life and falls madly and passionately in love with me. ALL of the Greyjoys rock. Even Asha, who is growing on me by leaps and bounds.

That leaves me with the two "controversies" that we have been discussing here. The first is Renly/Loras... I am heterosexual as well, and I am not turned on by a scene in which two men act in a sexual manner with one another. That said, I am also an adult, and just because I am not inclined to be aroused by it doesn't mean that I can't watch it and enjoy it. Specifically when it is in perfect context with what the author wrote about his characters. Both characters did a wonderful job of acting in this scene, and it set up perfectly the later conflict between Loras and Brienne. It also gave us an understanding of the maidenhood of Margery which will become an essential plot point as the story goes. This scene was absolutely necessary to advance the plot of the TV show, and if you are too immature to watch, then switch the damn channel for two minutes and don't burden the rest of us with your homophobia.

That leaves me with Shae... She is a completely different character in this show. The problem that I have had is that I keep trying to reconcile her to the Shae of the books. Well, five episodes into her story arc, this is obviously not the case. Tonight, I tried to keep an open mind with the actress and just judge her on her performance. She is actually doing a fantastic job. It is obvious to me that her direction is to be arrogant, and a bit unlikeable. I think that D&D is doing this because they were afraid they couldn't redeem the character of Tyrion after he kills her to a TV audience. I personally think that they could, but it would be extremely tricky. I don't begrudge them at all for going the easier route on this one.

I am shocked at how many people are rating this thing 5 and below. To me, a 5 would be an average episode on American television. Something like a run of the mill episode of CSI Whatever the Fuck.

What we are watching in this series is television greatness. There is an absolute ceiling for me of a 7 just because of the set design and costuming. With the monumental acting that is being done by Peter Dinklidge and Lena Heady, I am raising it another point and putting this show at an 8 as an absolute minimum for the worst episode they can make.

This week, my final evaluation is at a 9. There was the smallest of disappointments in the casting and name change of Asha Greyjoy. She is one of my biggest book crushes, and they just didn't capture her sassyness for me. I am willing to withhold judgement, because there is something about the actress that just may grow on me.

Otherwise, this episode was one of my favorite ways to spend an hour in front of a television. I am sure that I will see this over and over again. (something I never do with other series.)

I just do not understand all of the complaints about the changes from the book to the TV series. They are still capturing the spirit of this story absolutely magnificently. I am watching the show now with a bunch of non book readers , and they are loving it. This is far and away the best show on TV, and my all time favorite series.

If you want an example of a bad TV conversion of a fantasy book, go and read The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher. then, go watch the TV show. After this is done, go write a nice, long letter to D&D about how thankful you are about how wonderful they have been in their story telling.

With all of that said, I absolutely loved this episode. Arya being back was just the icing on the cake. I can't imagine a more perfect scene. I also loved, loved, loved the Baelish scene. Some of the best acting of the series so far. Balon was spot on perfect, and they took Gilly right out of my head and put her on screen.

We are watching greatness

Happy Ent

They are royalty. Well fed. And both are known as the most beautiful women in the realm. They should be beautiful.

Whores are not. Not today, and not then. That’s what I’m objecting to: the argument for gratuitous sex scenes from verisimilitude. Because the sex scenes we get are the opposite of verisimilitude. It’s as if some cast members talked with a heavily Californian accent or used l33t sp33k. The sex scenes are cut out of a 90s soft porn movie. They scream “this show is on meekly pseudo-raunchy American cable TV!!!” and pull me right out of the experience.

The character of Ros is not just an average street walker. She is a prostitute for Lords and Nobles. That is the only people we have ever seen sleeping with her. Of course she is going to be better looking than the norm if she is landing that kind of clientele.So actually, it functions very well from verisimilitude.

To put it in a modern day equivalent, she would be one of the $5,000.00 escorts that Eliot Spencer paid for rather than a $20 street walker.

A travesty!

I just read a list of all of the Hugo award winners, and what books they ran against, and this is one of their smallest slights. I disagreed with the VAST majority of their opinions.

Even though the Potter books do not hold a candle to the creativeness and workmanship that goes into ASOIF, they are at least a good ambassador into the world of sci-fi and fantasy.