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chrisdaw

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Everything posted by chrisdaw

  1. chrisdaw

    Jojen Paste

    Meeting in this case is a grey term. Criston Cole is Jaime's parallel. He was defeated (South) of the Gods Eye by the Northern Winter Wolves. The God's Eye surrounds the Isle of Faces, the sacred Isle of Faces is presumably one of the few places in the South still to have weirwoods. In Bran's vision the Northerners execute (or perhaps sacrifice or judgement?) a prisoner in front of the weirwood he looks out from. In the sample chapter Watch it, Jaime is going to be defeated around the Gods Eye and taken alive when the North comes South, then taken to a weirwood on the Isle of Faces either for judgement or execution, but the tree is going to spare him.
  2. chrisdaw

    Jojen Paste

    Bran falling in love with Meera is about Jaime. That line, "The things I do for love", is significant and stuck in Bran's mind for a reason. Bran is going to learn what it's like to love, of all the different terrible and epic things other people have done for love (Bloodraven kinslaying, Lyanna & Rhaegar eloping and starting a war), and then contemplate what he would do (or has done, mind raping Hodor to be with Meera) for love. Then he will do as Ned said and decide Jaime does not deserve to die.
  3. chrisdaw

    Jojen Paste

    The discussion on Jojen paste should be won and done, it's heavily foreshadowed and thematically fitting. The discussion should move on. The first question I suppose should be is if it's just his blood taken without having taken his life. I doubt this on the basis that it doesn't fit thematically, this is all about sacrifice, and there's no sacrifice where there's no permanent harm done, the theme would not be realised. Further questions would be, though I suppose not particularly important but interesting to me none the less is if it is just his blood? The paste as it is described sounds like brain or eyes, the eyes would make symbolic sense given that Jojen has Greensight. And then there is the question of if it matters, for the purpose of the sacrifice, if Jojen has Greensight? Does that make the ritual sacrifice and cannibalism more powerful? Is it required that the sacrifice victim have Greensight for it to be at all useful? If not that may raise interesting questions as to the use of the other two guests in the cave, and so I shall thoerise. It seems to me the cave is set up far too conveniently, the ingredients are there for a boil over. You have the COTF talking of the end of days and Bloodraven living beyond his natural lifespan to save the world. On a character level, to take a black and white look at the situation, you have Bran and Bloodraven as polar opposites. Bloodraven is the most ruthless character to have been somewhat developed in the whole of the series. The man gives no fucks as to the amount of blood he must spill to achieve his goal, cold, calm and calculated. Previously he was acting just to keep the realm at peace, to keep his House on the throne and win out over his bitter brother. This time, he's tasked himself with preventing the ice zombie apocalypse, there's no lengths he will not go to. On the other side, we have a young boy who easily gets emotional and attached, he is prone to acting on emotion. He is also perhaps the most benevolent character in the series. The idea of sacrifice for the greater good in the long term is going to run counter to every natural feeling he has. Now GRRM has thrown these two together in the cave, where BR and the COTF believe they can work in secret behind Bran's back while they teach him and he grows in not just power but also understanding. They don't have much time before the invasion comes to Westeros, but with what little time they have to work with they can try and teach Bran the nature of the power that is going to be required to save the realm and the necessity of sacrifice. Only there's a budding spanner in the works for their secrecy, Bran need only open one wrong door in Hodor's body for the premature truth to come tumbling out. I think there's only 3 ways Bran's arc can go. He rejects the way of sacrifice and forges his own path to saving the realm. If this is the case, I think the cave is going to get very messy. He rejects the way of sacrifice but ends up succumbing to it when he believes it is the only way to save the realm. Cave would still get messy here. He runs all the way with BR's way of sacrifice, the story is in his internal struggle to come to grips with the horrible things he must do or allow so that the realm may be saved. Based on the potential for the dramatic I think the last is the least likely. There is a harrowing scene on the offering here, and a few hints GRRM has it in mind. When I first found this I applied it to Jojen and was done. The beast who carried them so far was symbolic of Jojen having lead their adventure by way of his dreams. However, it really works better when applied to Hodor, the brave (the only time a man be brave is when he is afraid, and Hodor is afraid often in their journey but comes through for them) strong but mentally challenged man who literally carried Bran on his back so far. According to the Woods Witch the saddest sound at the Red Wedding were Jinglebell's bells, that is the sound of Aegon Frey being murdered by Catelyn. Now normally this wouldn't be such a sad thing, not by Westeros standards anyway, Aegon is a Frey and as such enemy to all things honourable and good, and his murder occurs at the height of the Frey's greatest villainy. The reason it is sad, atleast according to the Woods Witch, is undoubtedly because Jinglebell is mentally handicapped. He is a helpless, confused and oblivious spectator. Granted Jinglebell being a simpleton serves a purpose in demonstrating Catelyn's descent, but I think it's undoubted that GRRM has here used a mentally handicapped man child as a victim to ratchet up the emotional impact of the scene. Perhaps not for the last time. The Varamyr POV ADWD prologue gives an insight into Skinchanging, custom, nature and possibilities. Skewing off from him recounting how Mel burned his Skinchanged self in mid-flight is the recollection of Varamy's first death in another skin. It is stressed as a traumatic, harrowing event, and I believe it would be such a scene for the reader too had we much investment in Varamyr. As it stands, if the series were to end now, the scene is rather superfluous. It's groundwork, we have several Skinchanging heroes at play with which the reader is invested, Bran being the most emotional brittle of them. I have no doubt one of them is going to experience what Varamyr did, probably more than one, maybe all. But Bran is the most harrowing option, and an option that could be made more dramatic with a less animalistic death. And so I don't think Jojen is really the main dish here, he's merely the appetiser leading to the climax of this whole ordeal. How the scene would go I'm not sure, but in throwing out possibilities I harken back to the three ways I see Bran's arc could go. Might Bran come to accept the necessity of sacrifice, and skinchange Hodor to willingly sacrifice him? Could he be in his mind's eye but confused, not understanding the situation until the dagger is drawn across his throat? Or perhaps he realises in time and the sacrifices become many, older and smaller instead of one young large one. Something else to consider, with what tidbits we've been given I think it's more likely than not by now that sacrifice for the realm runs in Hodor's blood. Note that I could consider Meera in place or addition to Hodor, but I think even Jojen would have attempted to fight fate had he thought that was a possibility.
  4. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Yes it does. Waynwood tells him there's a match for him with a bastard if he should consent to it. He thinks ewwwww bastard germs, no thanks. If Yohn has caught wind of the plan and had a chance to get in his ear he's probably been warned against her from him too. So when he meets her he's in this mindset and is a bit of a dick. Later he thinks 'well I was a bit of a dick, I should at least be civil, and she is shit hot...' and Alayne starts roping him in.   It's GRRM does Jane Austen, high end eligible bachelor falls in love with our heroine despite her having nothing but her charms to recommend her, only in Austen's version there's no paedophile sword masters to slice the shit out of Mr Darcy, or the like.
  5. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    True as far as any single character goes, but I don't think he's necessary to sustain her arc. He dies and there's the whole game out in front of Sansa, and Cersei to cast down. GRRM gave Sansa the key to understanding what LF did when he had Lysa blabber in front of her, and he has created the scenario where to continue with LF Sansa has to let SR die. That to me is a none too transparent trigger (the contradiction between her thinking of SR's future while courting Harry is not subtle in this chapter), surely she has to get out from under him sooner rather than later or he should have been the POV. He could be put to flight I suppose, and Sansa works it all out in his absence and then the Maid slays the giant when they cross paths sometime in the future.
  6. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    LF's primary role is that of Sansa's tutor, and that's nearly done, but there's a chance he sticks around to clash wills with the Spider.   Harry or LF are going to die at the Gates and civil war is going to erupt in the Vale, the carefully crafted hostility between the Royces and all the other little moving pieces are not for nothing. Harry and Sansa aren't going to marry and it all get left behind. Nestor and LF hold all the cards and defensive position at the Gates, Yohn has all the men and backing and when Harry or LF dies all the righteous reasoning to come collect.
  7. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Because what Sansa wants is a major stumbling block in her arc, that she has decided it offscreen between chapters simply because she is doing as LF says (as she's done the whole time since being in his care) is nonsense. She sits down and creates what she wants, WF as it was before the giant came, filled with family and people she loved and people who loved her, WF as it can never be again. Beyond that there is no real determination, there's only ideas planted by LF for which emotionally there is mostly no acknowledgment or at best an apathetic acceptance, and Sandor constantly popping up without invitation. GRRM has been drumming into us that Sansa's original mode of operation is to consider and attempt to satisfy what the other wants first and foremost, rarely does she do otherwise. That Arya doesn't do the same fries her brain.   That only contrary thought is pretty fucking important. She doesn't want SR dead, she's going along with the plan because that's what she does and she hasn't thought about it, that's why her thoughts and actions conflict. Her protection of SR is instinctive, motherly, she doesn't really realise she's doing it, or that wooing Harry is going to collide with it. Sansa doesn't want Harry, Sansa isn't happy in the Vale, Alayne wants Harry and Alayne is happy in the Vale. Sansa hasn't acknowledged it yet (bit of a trend), but Sansa wants Sandor.   The biggest issue here is Sansa fans. In their minds it's obvious what Sansa wants, Sansa wants what they want. They also see things in for and against for Sansa, so you end up with posts implying judgement where there is none. Apparently I'm being harsh on her, overly critical, not understanding she's a child, etc, when I've offered no actual judgement.
  8. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    What you're alleging, having provided nothing textual to back it with, is that Sansa has thought about what she wants and derived a plan to achieve it, all off screen without any allusion. Now to achieve this plan she must have either decided she is fine with SR's death or derived her own plan to achieve it contrary to LF's in which SR doesn't die. I'm perfectly happy to wait for TWOW to prove otherwise as it's apparent I'm not going to get anything from the text here. What I allege is that she hasn't given it thought, she is simply doing what she is directed to in the manner she is directed. That she is acting the parrot that GRRM had Sandor describe her as. She doesn't really want Harry and she doesn't really want this plan, she just hasn't realised it yet, but she will and when she does it will be a partial awakening, she will begin her playing for herself, her own plans for her own power. Only partial though, because really she doesn't want to play at all. They made her into a player, she was never asked if she wanted to play, and she doesn't, it's too dangerous, ultimately her arcs when she decides not to play, her first real act of self.
  9. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    No, she mustn't have thought about anything, that's you projecting, assuming, and oh please do quote me where she tells us those one and two goals. Come now, lack of any textual evidence hasn't stopped you projecting on her anywhere else, why now?
  10. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    It's not me doing the assuming, you're the one assuming thoughts for Sansa that are not provided in the text.   So while you're at it, how does she feel about LF's ominous prediction, that it's not if but 'when' SR dies? I mean, by your reckoning she's obviously thought about it, so are we to assume she's fine with ploughing a path that includes the death of her cousin?   You don't make sense, there's nothing to reconcile, she does as she's told without regard to what she wants, she doesn't think the opposite, she doesn't think anything, she's told, she does. Of course It doesn't help that besides going back in time to when everyone was alive and in WF she doesn't really know what she wants.
  11. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    One would assume independent thoughts are meaning with regards to playing the game, not common memories or everyday thoughts every person has, it's not independent thought as much as paying attention. I noted the Winged Knights as her initiative, a LF method for LF's purpose, but more progress none the less.   What the chapter shows most overwhelmingly is that she is currently dedicating herself in full to LF's plan. She has done so naturally, instinctively, without having ever really stopped to consider and then decide on what she wants. Someone points, she goes.
  12. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Sansa's not independently thinking or self determining. She is merely doing what LF directs and does so without regard to what she herself wants. The initiative she takes is to further LF's will and could be from a LF playbook.   When LF is cast aside Sansa will run her own show, she will be independent in her climb to the throne, but she won't be self determining, she'll be doing not what she wants but what she was taught, how she has learned she is supposed to react in the situation.
  13. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    What an original idea that is.
  14. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Well you could just run with the straight forward foreshadowing and take on her character arc. You've got the Sharra, Ronnel and Visenya story to run parallel with Sansa, Robert and Tyrion and so we have how she winds things up in the Vale. From there you have her rise to queen, keeping with her pawn to player arc, the younger queen casting down Cersei and her parallels of Anne Neville and Alysanne. On the way to throwing down Cersei there's the much foreshadowed Cleganebowl as a well foreshadowed trial of seven. And then you have her ditching the throne and doing a runner as per Jaime's advice.
  15. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    A lot of people stumble on this and I don't really understand why. Putting aside things like her having to go North to go South at some point, the betrayals coming her way and her having to lose Drogon for him to return to her, if you don't believe people power is going to remove Dany from the throne what do you think GRRM is doing setting her up to be Westeros' most hated? What is the purpose?
  16. chrisdaw

    [twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

    I'm sure it will come up in conversation before he and Sansa would get to the altar.
  17. chrisdaw

    [twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

    Doran isn't going to declare for Aegon without a marriage pact, in the game of thrones you don't leave the crown on the table. The Vale is not LF's or Sansa's to give. The whole point of marrying Sansa to Harry and being rid of SR is to galvanise and motivate the Vale to do his bidding, if he marries Sansa to Aegon and calls the banners the only Lords besides the weak Royce to heed his call will be those he can bribe. The Vale won't rise to fight for LF and a Targaryen king. Sansa is Tyrion's wife, Tyrion saved Aegon's life and gave him, as far as he knows, the greatest advice he's ever been given. And last he knows Tyrion lives, he's not going to marry his wife.
  18. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Your last post was like this one, all over the place. I'll break it down as simply as possible. The first assertions made that you claim are subjective are below. Sansa has come to represent honour to Jaime, honour is thematically explored through JAime's character. Brienne has been labouring in servitude of her oath to Catelyn to protect Sansa for more than half her chapters. Sandor invades Sansa's romantic thoughts in a unique way. Cersei was a great antagonising force towards Sansa. Tyrion is susceptible to the manipulations of young beautiful women who are capable of filling his need for love. Sansa and Tyrion are married. It is on these that I relied upon in the first instance(s) in reply to your assertion that there is nothing in the South for Sansa. You disagree with that assertion, ok, but you also claim what I've based the assertion on to be subjective. I disagree, to attempt to paint the above as something other what is written is to just be wrong. So how am I wrong? I disagree what you've recounted as having happened to LF amounts to a character arc, he's the same character in Dance as he was in AGOT, he has just amassed some more power.
  19. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Oh please do explain what I have represented out of context and ignored. And can you explain what you actually mean when you refer to LF's character arc?
  20. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    Not really, saying Jaime has a character arc concerning his honour which Sansa has come to represent isn't really subjective anymore than saying the sky is up, it's what is. As with Brienne swearing her oath to Catelyn, Tyrion being subjective to manipulations of the young and beautiful, and Sansa being young, beautiful and becoming manipulative (as per this chapter). Bran's dream is one of the largest pieces of foreshadowing in the story, fair enough the interpretation can be subject to opinion, that the man armoured like the sun might not be the character described elsewhere as armoured like the sun is possible, as it is the character with the face like a hound might not be the character called the hound that wore the helmet with the face of a hound. I'm running with the percentages on that one. The original point, that there is plenty more pointing to the South than North for Sansa is not relying on the nitty gritty detailed predictions, but large portions of existing character arc and major pieces of foreshadowing.
  21. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    I started with references to large swathes of character arc in the established text, some of the biggest most blatant passages of foreshadowing and some major themes as it made sense then, but it's become a narrow window of off-topic predictions that I don't think belong here. There are other topics for that sort of thing, including my own in this forum not far off the front page that answers most of the above.
  22. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    We'll see, the realm will look different and have different priorities after the Dance, there's no story if nothing changes. Those same arguments could be used against Tyrion accumulating any power, and yet he's to be snarling in the middle.
  23. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    She's not going to be languishing in a dungeon in KL, putting her in KL puts her in the middle of the action with access to the factions of power as the Dance and aftermath bring chaos to the realm. Mobility is never so possible as under such circumstances, the only limit to her influence in this situation is the limit of her ability to plan and manipulate. And, soon the three most powerful people in the realm will be the three dragon riders, she's married to one. After people power throws Dany off the IT it will fall to the Faith to put the realm back to rights, Cersei's children would have to be the front runner for the crown unless someone else emerges, in which case a PR battle will ensue. Cersei won't have the power to trial Sansa, but the Faith will, Cersei just has to put the fairly reasonable looking allegation to the Faith and they'll trial her because that would be the reasonable thing to do. Sure, but when Tyrion comes back all bets are off. When the dust settles and the realm has time to draw breath, there may be a HS willing to annul their marriage, the question I would ask is by then will they both want to? Or by then have they both come to understand the marriage serves their purposes. Annulment provides the opportunity for both characters to stay married by choice.
  24. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    No abduction, she goes to KL with Tyrion after the Vale wraps up. While Aegon and Dany Dance about KL she is at worst a highborn hostage, but Tyrion isn't likely to be an enemy of either so Sansa is likely just to be there decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games. When Aegon is dead and Dany booted out it becomes a showdown for the throne, and prosecuting Sansa for Joff's death is a card Cersei has to play.
  25. chrisdaw

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    A trial for the murder of Joff.
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