chrisdaw

In the near term Jon will bloodily win and lead the north as KITN until his surrender to the Iron Throne, which will then probably see him named Lord of the North, then he will die towards the end of the series. Sansa may become Lady of the North on Jon's death and to end the series but if she does it will be a banishment of sorts forced on her and designed by others, the purpose of which will be to physically keep her from the powerful in King's Landing so that she may not manipulate and rule Westeros through them.

One should quote the actual text when doing a topic like this. The dwarves ravishing the woman will prove not to be the commonly interpreted WOT5Ks. The event it is foreshadowing hasn't happened yet, the woman does represent Westeros and the dwarf men are of Euron's doing and Aeron's dreams/vision (note the general destruction GRRM accompanies that dream with). I don't think the second is the Red Wedding, I think it's about Jon and GRRM again is playing games making a vision that appears to happen when the true happening is coming later and hitting harder. The vision doesn't necessarily make the king out to be a victim, a returned Jon can be viewed as both dead and having a wolf's head, and sitting there on a throne above the scene with the lamb leg as if it is a king's scepter makes me think the scene is his doing. The way GRRM describes the scene doesn't tie into the Red Wedding themes to me. There's beheaded corpses, who was getting beheaded at the Red wedding? Beheadings speak to justice, as does severed hands reaching for goods. For mine the scene reads like symbolism for the king figure executing a bunch of lords for their excesses. With an understanding of the Others and that the world of men is at stake Jon will lead a host South and he will destroy everyone who does not submit to him on the way, he's going to be ruthless and it's going to be very bloody. Dany will be with him most the way and I believe this HOTU scene is about that. The mute appeal to Dany I believe is because she will have the power to prevent it all having to come to this and Jon having to become this. It's a "save me from having to do this" but by the time she understands this she will have lost the power to do anything about it.

I think by Dance the was sort of lagging behind the titles but he had a think about it and decided Dance still worked, BUT, that makes a lot more sense if Tyrion is a Targ and thus a dragon. Dragon Aegon emerging and instead of teaming up with Dany being steered by Dragon Tyrion away from her to Westeros and Tyrion continuing on to Dany and Viserion. That's the crux of things, what should have been a natural all conquering alliance between Aegon and Dany has been railroaded by Tyrion, that's the dance and will lead to drastically different outcomes. I expect it to be revealed events in Dance to have been a result of Bloodraven and Shiera trying to steer things behind the scenes and so are also at play in the dance. The title would have almost certainly been first envisioned for the book in which Dany and Aegon war for the throne and Tyrion plays each off the other and swoops in at the end to take power for himself.

Correct, and the text I think says as much, GRRM wants us to believe this and wants it established as fact in world. The why of it is because Jon like the Young Dragon he idiolised is going to go south and conquer, but being a Daeron fan Jon will recall his histories (or someone will tell him if he doesn't) and know that he must consolidate his conquest with a marriage pact lest it all fall apart, and this is how we will get the pact of Ice and Fire as Jon will force a marriage onto princess of the north Arya to the crown, and Arya will have to decide to either run away and be no-one or do her duty and become queen.

Davos is about language, communication, he will work for KITN Jon, almost certainly as his Hand, and he will make the deals and pacts across the Narrow Sea and within Westeros that mend and create the alliances that will be pivotal for Westeros to survive the Long Night and win TWFTD. He will probably outlive Jon and finish the story as Hand to the crown. He will lose much if not everything he has personally, his sons and wife most likely, in service to the realm. A possible scenario is that Davos will have the resources to attempt to save his wife (Maria?) but those resources would better serve the realm's struggle for survival being used in another way, and Davos will do the right thing for the realm. This scenario would be a close parallel to what Stannis will do with Shireen, with the differences being the difference between right and wrong. Of Davos were to lose his wife and sons you'd get a situation where his own House will die, and this would serve as a sharp contrast with all the Hands who (mis)used their position to advance their House. A scenario may present itself where he could create an alliance that would serve the realm by marrying a woman known to be barren, and he will help the realm but also ensure the extinction of his House. It would make thematic sense for Davos to abandon Stannis when Stannis sacrifices Shireen as that shows Stannis is not fit for rule, and that serving Stannis is no longer serving the realm and justice. I think that will be the case but Stannis might just die before Davos gets to make the decision, alternatively Davos could make a mistake or be in the process of deciding if he should abandon Stannis when Stannis dies. Also possible Davos (justly) betrays Stannis and that becomes part of what causes Stannis's death and plays into his second life as betrayal played into Catelyn's second life and what she became.

I'd think boy beating drum to time would be Bran and his story is going to get very time travelly. I agree the lines are drawn from happenings or going to happenings in the story, but I think it's just a technique he's using to just flesh out White Harbor, I don't think there's any particular theme here or anything he's trying to convey. I believe this passage is the same yet to come event that is foreseen by Mel in this passage Which I believe is a hold out of humanity during TWFTD. Probably the civilians of KL having fled to the dried out seabed of the Narrow Sea.

No that's not how it works. The dragon can hold infinite souls and the souls will have varying dominance inside of it. The three heads of the dragon refers to a specific dragon, the one which will defeat the Others and save the world in the WFTD. The three heads are Rhaego, Drogo and Dany, when Dany dies her soul will join Rhaego and Drogo inside Drogon (though part of her soul will go into a sword) and Drogon will take on her characteristics and become larger and stronger and breath fire hot enough to win the battle, and that's why there's a prophecy about 3 heads because they're the important pieces in this specific instance which will save the world. It's not particularly important but they will not be the only souls inside of Drogon, many many less dominant souls will join, the dominant souls within the dragon can resist or allow other souls in. It's an afterlife and Dany is the gate keeper, she determines who is and isn't allowed in, she basically becomes a god . There's numerous textual references to it and this is the most succinct. No, you get reborn as a dragon. To be honest these are really just my theories (in my sigs) making there way onto other platforms, being bastardised and working their way back here.

Nah Rhaego being the key in the instance of Dany's dragons and a child in general is thrown at us all through the series, and it's the key theme GRRM wants to explore - is there ever a situation in which the sacrifice of one's own child is moral? Like if it's to save the world. The sacrifice of the child will be how Dragonbinder is bound, that's the blood one must trade for fire, the pregnant mother blows the horn and what happened to Dany (the fire consumed Rhaego in her womb as per multiple references in the series) happens. MMD is in Rhaegal, Viserys Viserion, Rhaego and Drogo in Drogon. Part of Rhaego's soul/blood may have gone into Viserion and Rhaegal to give them life, that can happen (for example Lightbringer, only part of the soul went into making the sword, or a tiny piece remaining in Drogo's body to keep him alive while his soul was in the egg), but the controlling majority portion is with Drogo in Drogon (GRRM has used Bran/Hodor and Thistle/Varamyr to establish that multiple souls in one body is something that happens). Truly MMD shouldn't be able to get in by the rules I argue as she's not blood related to Rhaego, but she is, she broke the rules, GRRM broke his own rules even, it's magic he can do that. When Dany dies and her soul joins Rhaego and Drogo in Drogon that's the three heads of the dragon (and the scene the TV show used in place of all the near unfilmable HOTU book scenes).

Dany + Euron is woven through everywhere. Daario is the Euron prototype, Falia is even Dany prototype, as Euron ingratiates himself to Faalia by empowering her to her revenge, so will Euron come bearing gifts (always poisoned) to help Dany to her revenge on Westeros. The point of Euron corrupting Drogon is to bring about two central points to the series. Dany allows Euron into her circle to help defeat her political enemies and win the throne, Euron corrupts Drogon so that he's no longer of any use against the Others. So by dividing the realm, infighting and seeking power she will lose the ability to save the world. General ASOIAF we'd all be better off if we all just got along philosophy. Dany will wish to fix Drogon back to his fire breathing regular dragon type form, and have a decent understanding of the process by which it is done. She will to her mind need to find a baby Daddy of good dragon stock, get pregnant, then sacrifice the child. And so comes the climactic dilemma of the whole series, is one child's life is worth the realm? Not just a question for Dany, but for child's father Jon too.

The purpose of the topic was to put forth that the symbolism in the visions will manifest specifically in Drogon (her mount) by way of the husbands/partners souls entering Drogon, that Drogo gave it wings, Euron will make Drogon a water dragon (kraken) that will lose the ability to fly and Jon would if it were to happen create an ice dragon.

Yes he was, at first he thought it was himself, then he thought it was Aegon, then he thought it was all three, though likely he changed his mind by the end, and I explain it comprehensively in the topic in my sig.

You're completely correct. They both have the hots for each other, consciously or not. Gendry understands his feelings better than Arya, finds out she's highborn and can read and what not and so understands they can never be and starts becoming resentful of her highness and also puts up barriers as a defensive measure, Arya feels the shift but doesn't understand what's happening because she isn't as aware of her feelings and wouldn't see the class difference for the barrier that it is.

Jon was walking on by in direct contrast to Sam who acted. Arya is central to Jon acting against Ramsay, and the use of strangers in the passage I quoted is there for the purpose of direct comparison. These things are very deliberately done. It will become apparent that Rhaegar expected his children to die as the means to wake dragons and save the world. Dany did it unwittingly, the existing dragons will be lost and dilemma come again, but with an understanding of how to wake dragons and the cost that is required, Jon and Dany's arcs are both leading to the point of deciding if they will or will not sacrifice a child to save the world.

The key differences are (will be) these. Interventionism. Jon would have walked past Craster with all his wives and daughters and no sons, while in contrast Dany has to poke her nose into every injustice she happens by. The other key is that Dany will, like Rhaegar and other Targaryens, be willing to trade a living child of her own for the power of dragons, whereas Jon, like Ned, will upon some soul searching consider protecting children of his own blood his highest priority.

I think the story destination in the North is pretty easily predicted and the path there not so interesting. Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen become an ice dragon and fly off to join/lead the Others. Jon is going to pick up where human good guy Stannis left off, defeat the Boltons and solidify all the north under his leadership, then head south.

She's just a device for Jaime's arc, maybe Arya if it swings that far. She does get me thinking about Jaime and Cersei though. The war was Jaime's fault and Pia is firstly a victim of the war, it's a lesson, don't be selfish, don't create more Pias. Jaime treats Pia correctly, but to be fair he was always likely to, Jaime's issue with the world is people's judgement and that people are not free to love who they would, so compassion for Pia is a natural position for him. Bonifer gave up the love of his queen while Jaime took his in sin, Bonifer casts Pia the sinner out while Jaime has compassion and takes responsibility for her, besides the obvious personal juxtaposition it's probably running commentary on what the church is doing to Cersei as well, Cersei is very bad, but should Jaime leave Cersei to the judgement of the Faith? Are they fit to judge her? The Cersei dream comparison seems to be about differentiating about acting on his own selfish behalf and in the interest of the realm. It is in the interest of the realm that he moves against Cersei, that he disempowers Cersei, he is in a position to take on that responsibility and feels compelled (one has to assume morally) to do so. Killing her lovers and breaking her face in however is just petty revenge, it's low and it's selfish, it's as monstrous as the Mountain. Jaime and Cersei are going to feud in epic fashion, and the question will be asked if Jaime is just a jilted lover seeking revenge or an elder statesman doing what he feels is in the best interest of the realm. Arya is going to have sex with Gendry and become pregnant by him and Jon (with those judgy judgy Stark ice eyes Jaime knows all about) is going to be pissed off about it and Arya is going to refuse to name the father. Jaime's non-judgemental compassion for lovers and Pia crossing both Arya and Jaime's stories like this, along with Bran's vision, have me thinking Jaime is going to be all up in that storyline. Gendry is going to be KG and Jaime his LC so he'll be all over it from that angle anyway. Jaime swore to Catelyn he'd protect Arya, does that mean protect her secrets? And does that mean protect her from her Lord bastard brother? Poor Jaime, his oaths never stay simple.

Perhaps, bitter sweet others may say.

There's probably decade old topics about it and what foreshadowing can be drawn from it. The characters in the series exist to explore themes and prove a point. The historic characters explore these same themes but mostly with a telling difference. For example, Arya exists to explore the importance of a high lady in this society sacrificing her personal desires to do her duty, in the end Arya will make her sacrifice and everything will work out for the best. In contrast Rhaenyra exists to explore the same theme, difference being she didn't sacrifice her personal desires for duty and the result was cataclysmic.

It's not difficult to see how it could get worse because as has been run through in many a topic the universe is conspiring against Dany's Westeros rule. The lessons she has taken from Meereen, her ADWD arc, is that her approach was the wrong approach, she chained her dragons in a literal and symbolic sense, forgot who she is, when she returns to Westeros it will be all fire and blood and dragons plant no trees.

Euron's smiling eye will take in the Falias (and Danys) of this world, but surely not Quaithe, and the implications of that is interesting. There's no innocently bringing Euron to Dany for Dany's benefit. IF Quaithe is trying to bring Dany and Euron together she must basically be evil, and I guess trying to bring Dany to the dark side, and that sort of makes sense. The dragons are ultimately supposed to be seen as evil (the show Viserys language concerning dragons being a power men should have never trifled with is at the hear of the series too) and Quaithe's main thrust is in trying to get Dany to embrace the dragon.

Are unreleased (or only read) chapters allowed in this section without spoilers? I hope so but it wasn't previously. It's nothing to do with Meereen, that's a weird recency take. I believe the pale fire represents faded out magic, once lauded magic that has lost it's potency/power in time (and perhaps a lack of sacrifices to fuel it). I believe this based upon Dany's faded ghost ancestors in her wake the dragon dream having swords of pale fire. So I believe the woman is a sorcerer who has either lost much of her ability or lost it and has it returning, that is the returning of their power is part of their character, their motivation or reason they've emerged. I think it's Shiera Seastar who is Quaithe, her powers waned in time but with Dany waking dragons she's on the come back, she guides Euron (sailors navigate by the stars and Shiera is the brightest), they share a lust for exploring the possibilities of the world's magic and a disregard for the sacrifices (of others) it requires. It's all fun and games to them, they're experimenting.

I know what show runners and actor have said, and retain Bran will not be king. Tyrion will be king, he won't finish the series as king.

I understood and replied to what you wrote. No not ever character has a struggle with their parentage. Jaime's arc is not wholly but primarily one of selfishness to servitude, the position of Hand and Jaime exists to explore these themes of service, he won't end the series as Hand because he'll die but he will be the series defining Hand, the primary point of each of his POV Feast chapters and Dance chapter relates to this arc. It's not going away, it is what the character is all about, and Tywin is there in the background to serve as contrast.

Feast Jaime is entirely about playing Tywin's role. I understand that no amount of text quoting will convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced, but I find it amusing you say role when GRRM went so out of his way to so specifically give you a direct parallel of the two men playing the same role. I just have to shake my head and wonder.