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Black Crow

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Posts posted by Black Crow

  1. 2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

    Where did we get the idea Jon's real name was Aegon?  Is this from the show?  This makes no sense, given Rheagar had another son Aegon already, who was probably still alive when Jon was born.   I always suspected his name was Aemon, like the dragonknight he specifically thinks about and looks up to.

    As I recall its pure [and quite old] fanfic speculation by the R+L=J crowd which made its way across to the Mummers' version. There's no textual support

  2. I'm somewhat hampered here by not seeing the series [and distracted by real world events], but this does seem to be getting to the heart of the dragons' relationship with the Targaryens and how Danaerys, the last Dragonlord, fits into things - I'm convinced by Frey Family Reunion's argument.

    However, if he is indeed right, then that only emphasises how far Jon Snow is outside that circle

  3. 55 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

    I am continue the rereading and this time something interesting from Tyrion I - Jaime and Tyrion discuss Bran's situation after his fall, Jaime says he would mercy kill his son in such a situation because Bran will be more than a crippled boy but rather a grotesque being. Tyrion replies that he wants Bran to wake up because he is interested in what he will reveal. When Jaime questions Tyrion about his loyalties, Tyrion is said to look at him "like a wolf" - the translation I own has phrase at least - and says why you know how much I love our family etc. I never connected Bran being a grotesque being and Tyrion's wolfish stare before, is it a hint about who Bran will skinchange in the future? 

    I think not and that the passage should be read straight, but of course [and thank you for reminding us] it does rather suggest motive for the murder attempt. Cersei? Jaime?

  4. 16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

    I can't believe the dagger was chosen because it was the least conspicuous in Robert's collection.  Lots of people today carry a knife on them wherever they go, knives are everywhere, and in Westerous would be even more prevalent, and in Bran's condition, he could have been killed with a spoon.  Either the employer had access to the dagger and happened to grab it because it was convenient, or more likely, with the intent of framing someone.

    Exactly so and that's pretty explicit by the way it becomes a plot device in the book

  5. 13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    I still think the wildlings are the smiling enemy sharpening their blades behind their backs. Now that they convinced Jon to let them through the Wall, the next step is to usher the wights through.

    I'm not convinced that the wights are an "enemy". That requires a consciousness and intelligence they clearly don't have.

    Rather the "enemy" is the cold, which raises them. I'm not even convinced anent the walkers. Yes, they are Nazgul, riding those cold winds and so associated with the wights, but that aint the same thing as raising and controlling them

    A real life parallel might be herds of bison/buffaloes. The size of a herd is dangerous, trampling all in its past. Native American warriors can pass through it for concealment, and they can direct it to some extent, but that's not the same thing at all as acting as generals and by the same token I don't see Walkers "commanding" armies of wights. 

  6. 14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

    I actually think it's not so far fetched that Joffrey had decided he should shut Bran up after Tyrion told him to pay respects to Ned and Cat . it was just too much for Joff . he probably just summoned a nobody ,commanded him to kill the boy for his prince and when the guy muttered that he is not a knight and doesn't even have a weapon , Joff gave him a dagger nearby. 

    The problem with that scenario is Joffery

    Joffrey being the Joffrey we all knew and loved is just not someone who has that sort of contact with someone so far down the social scale. 

  7. 4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

    I don't see it as that simple.  Assuming you are right about the employer not anticipating Catelyn's return or the assassin getting caught, that still leaves the question of why use this knife?  Do you go along with the idea that the knife was intended to frame someone?  If not, why not just use a cheap kitchen knife?  If you agree the knife was intended to frame someone, who was it intended to frame? and who was the employer?  And why kill Bran?

     

    That's why I think that it is simple

    Somebody thought it would be a good idea to kill Bran. The intended assassin could have done it with a common kitchen knife or strangled him, or suffocated him, or bashed his head in with a half brick

    Instead he attempted to use a Valyrian dagger which was quickly traced back to the Royal household. Clearly it was intended to be found at the crime-scene

  8. Looking at this sensibly. 

    We have a low-born, anonymous would-be killer. He doesn't look, sound or behave like a faceless man. There's no reason to believe that he isn't the loser he appears to be.

    Whoever he is/was, somebody hired him and provided him with an expensive dagger. Why? Bran wasn't reckoned to be able to fight him. A cheap knife, which he would have anyway, to cut food or whatever would have sufficed

    Instead he is given the murder weapon.

    He's not going to flee with it in his possession - and get caught

    And then there's the unexpected appearance to Catelyn

    The answer is actually ridiculously simple

    Bran was to be discovered - dead

    And the dagger was to be found sticking in his corpse - hence the reason for the dagger instead of a common [anonymous] kitchen-knife.

     

  9. 1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

    I assumed that 1. not everyone can identify Valyrian steel , otherwise Joff wouldn't have to say " I am familiar with VS" and 2.the catspaw wasn't that much of a professional and did not have any daggers in his possessions .. I mean , he goes on to kill son of Lord of Winterfell and all he is armed with is one dagger

    Indeed.

    The whole purpose of the exercise was to leave an incriminating dagger at the crime scene. There was no point in the catspaw having it otherwise and we can see this in the text by the discussion anent its origin and ownership

  10. Another mark against Joffery being [directly] responsible, is that fact that he's now dead. If there was any point to Joffrey having dunnit it would have been revealed before he died. There may well have been some involvement by Joffrey in the plot [Tommen is far too young], after all the dagger had to come from somewhere, but he wasn't the instigator.

  11. 13 hours ago, Nevets said:

    The problem with the catspaw is that there is no good solution.  I suspect it may be a retcon; that GRRM intended to leave it unsolved, but later realized that wouldn't work, but had no good solution available.

    Joffrey is the least bad solution, but his motive is quite weak.  Littlefinger might have motive, but the timing would be extremely tight, and he has no reason to expect the dagger to be recovered (without Summer's intervention, it wouldn't have been), much less for himself to be in a position to identify it (falsely).  Other suspects, like Mance, are even worse.  So we're stuck with Joffrey.

    Only up to a point. Joffrey never had the intelligence to plot something like this, far less deal directly with the catspaw. I'd be more inclined to see this as somebody unseen suggesting to Joffrey that it would be an absolutely splendid idea and that using a dagger belonging to the King would give the deed the royal imprimatur.

    So who then was best placed to suggest it to Joffrey ?

  12. 14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    :frown5: too bad there isn't a little wight emoji. This blue one will have to serve.

    Who needs wights? Others aint dead :commie:

    Seriously though, there is a point here that while Mel [ignorant until Davos enlightened her;)] might be looking for the battle to begin up north and the faithful are looking for her to do her stuff and summon Azor Ahai as portrayed in the Mummers' version, I think that she and the faithful are going to get a shock

  13. 6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

    You say “jumped ahead” I say “went completely off the rails”.  Regardless I really don’t see the books going in that direction. The show is treating TPTWP prophecy as being some deeply held Targaryen secret.  But according to the books it seems that Aemon just assumes that Melisandre is aware of the prophecy and has no trouble talking about it in front of “outsiders”.

    I agree. When Aemon [Targaryen as was] talks to Mel, she spouts the Azor Ahai stuff and he responds that she's talking about the Battle for the Dawn. The clear implication is that he knows about it and links it into common Westerosi mythology and that they are one and the same - not a Targaryen family secret.

    The only family secret he appears to reference is when he insists that Jon Snow must take command of the Wall, because he is a son of Winterfell and it must be him or none.

    Idly digressing, of course, if R+L=J was true and meant what the Faithful claim, this would be the time for Aemon to reveal all - but instead he sends Jon in a different direction

  14. 2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

    The dagger's significance in the books is to figure out who wanted Bran assassinated.   I haven't really figured it out myself, although Littlefinger is my prime suspect.   It is an odd choice of weapon, why hire an assassin and give him such an expensive weapon?

    I think its a an obvious matter of misdirection

    The assassin, whether or not he succeeded, was clearly doomed, therefore it was important that his weapon pointed to someone

  15. 3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

    ...Jon is one of the main characters, but IMO he's not the most important character - his mother and all the females are: Ashara, Arianne, Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya. Jon's mother Ashara, gave up her identity rather than face the humiliation and degradation of a forced marriage beneath her station just because she wasn't a virgin. Like Rhaenyra in HotD stated to her father, if she were a man her desires wouldn't be a problem, that she could father a dozen bastard children and no one would care ... How angry men would be if the tables were turned and females were given primogeniture! Men would rather garner support behind a 2-year old Aegon II rather than a fully grown Rhaenyra for the sole reason that he is male. 

    The Dream of Spring is the return of the goddess and making women equal to men in all things. THAT is what would bring true balance into the world.

    It wouldn't surprise me in the least and if I'm right about Jon's next step, then Sansa is indeed destined to be the next Lady of Winterfell

    There is of course another precedent going slightly further back in that Bael's son became Lord of Winterfell through his mother. 

  16. 43 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

    Ice or Fire, we know what chose him and what he chose, countless references in the text.

    If his mother is Lyanna, paternity is of no matter in his choice or how the North perceives him. The rest have no shortage of heirs, pretenders or otherwise.

    Oh there's long been pretty wide agreement among we miserable heretics that Jon's fate rests with Winterfell and Ice rather than with the Iron Throne and Fire. My post was entirely a matter of addressing Melifeather's questions anent real world succession :cool4:

  17. Returning to Feather's questions yesterday anent King Charles III there is as I suggested a direct parallel. Without digging into the very complicated past, Charles has gained the Throne through his mother, the late Queen Elizabeth rather than from his father Prince Philip.

    In Westerosi terms it suggests that in terms of fate Jon Snow is primarily a son of Winterfell through his mother Lyanna Stark rather than anything his father [whether or not he was Rhaegar Targaryen] might bring to the mix

  18. Hi Mace, Welcome back :commie:

    A possible answer to your question.

    Being British I see some of these things in heraldic terms; as Feather notes above wyverns have two legs and wings, while dragons have four legs and wings. As wryms [worms/snakes] obviously have neither that would suggest a step by step evolutionary path with questions asked anent whether it is a natural evolution or a managed one.

  19. 42 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

    I don't see where the line of descent jumped from the House of Stewart to the House of Hanover. Somehow the royal line goes from Queen Anne to Sophia of Hanover.

    Politics and religion.

    Queen Elizabeth died in 1603 leaving no children, so the English throne passed to James VI of Scotland who was a great-great grandson of Henry VII [via Henry VIII's sister Margaret] 

    James VI was succeeded by Charles I, then his son Charles II, then James VII. The latter was very able, but a Catholic, so got kicked out in a coup and replaced by his Protestant daughter Mary. She died leaving no children so the throne passed to her younger sister Anne, also a Protestant. Anne's children died, so when she died in 1714 the choice was between James VII' son, James [a lamentable lack of imagination in naming children] or George of Brunswick-Luneberg/Hanover. George won because [a] he was Protestant, and [b] he got on the boat first. Some notable squabbling followed of course - the Jacobite Risings - but George and his descendants hung on to the throne

    Of course I should have mentioned that although Queen Victoria was directly descended from George she married Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha [another German], so strictly speaking the late Queen Elizabeth follows 

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