Black Crow

Various things...

seriously though. Heresy began way back in 2011 as the Wall, the Watch and a Heresy. The Heresy essentially was the suggestion that the then assumption that the Starks were good and that the Wall was mankind's last best hope against the horror from the North. We also had our doubts about some other conventional wisdoms such as R+L=J and so on its gone, offering a forum for a quirky, unconventional look at the story. 

I'm not sure that there's confusion. It seems pretty straightforward that Mels warning that she will be going too rather than predicting an unknown "other" red woman - which would be confusing

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

My sympathies to you as well.  What breed are your two?  I'm under the impression they are big dogs.  

Fern is relatively small, a Collie cross and quite joyfully mad. George, however, is an English Mastiff and rather big. Happily not mad, which is just as well 

Sad news. My two send their condolences as they too lost a dear friend a couple of days ago

Its Mel's usual bit about "the path ahead and the path not taken and it comes over as a warning that if he goes, she'll go too. OK its ambiguous anent Mel but there is no-one else in Red at Castle Black to go along with the rangers

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm sorry, removed info?

As Takiedevushkikakzvezdy says, its discussed in the Reddit info dump published by Mithras. It was some detailed info on the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It didn't make it into the book but was used for a game so Elio reckoned it was only cut to save space rather than because GRRM had changed his mind. ie; it can [tentatively of course] be regarded as "factual"

On 1/18/2023 at 8:49 AM, Mithras said:

At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance.

This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer.

> Grandmother, found the scarlet silk from Asshai, dead

>> her daughter, old wisewoman, dead

>>> her daughter, healed Mance and patched up his cloak with scarlet silk, unknown status

I think the woman all in red is either the one who healed Mance or an unrevealed daughter of her (i.e. >>>>). I am leaning towards the unrevealed daughter being the one. But I don’t think we will see her in TWoW. I believe GRRM introduced a replacement for her in ADwD and she is none other than Morna White Mask, who is a warrior witch wearing a weirwood mask.

The daughter of the old wisewoman healed Mance from a fatal wound before he bled to death. The last we saw Jon, he was bleeding to death just like Mance after getting shredded by the shadowcat. This connection is not a coincidence IMO. Morna White Mask will somehow be instrumental in Jon’s healing/resurrection (whichever case you believe).

I'm inclined to disagree.

There's no alternative candidate so far and I think that Mel is simply warning Jon that if he does go ranging, she will go too

I agree with the intervention by Borroq - there has to be a reason for him there - but I think it will be much more straightforward

Jon's human body has been killed

but

As he died his last thought was "Ghost"

GRRM famously commented "oh you think he's dead do you"

Jon is still alive, but has shifted to Ghost

Borroq realises this

Borroq arranges for Ghost to escape [with Jon] to the Haunted Forest

32 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Oh, you want Jon/Ghost to rescue Bran then? Chewy thought.  Bran may be able to contact Jon/Ghost, as he did before on the Skirling Pass.  

I'm sure that he will contact them, but he doesn't have legs. And yes it could be chewy - and make sense too if Rickon is also to be found

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Morna was sent to Queensgate which seems fairly close to Castle Black.  Also, Val may have some healing skills that can aid Jon, perhaps until Morna arrives.

All things are possible, but Jon/Ghost escaping north into the Haunted Forest to find Bran seems more like what we can expect from GRRM. Jon as Beric seems a touch pointless and leaves Bran unrescued

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

If Jon dies and is reanimated, he would be an ice wight, but what applies to Beric would apply to him. Also, if Jon dies, he is released from the NW vows.  Which would set the stage for him and Ghost to head North, whether both in Ghost, or Ghost and dead man walking, Jon.

I think that Jon in Ghost will fit with where the story is going rather than Ghost plus wight.

45 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As you know from prior discussions, I don't really agree with you regarding the 13th LC--not that I think he's definitely still around, just that I believe that the continued existence of the NK is a viable prospect, in the same way that I think the other Kings of Winter could still be out there, assuming that some (or all) of them became Others.
 

Oh I agree. I fully expect that he will turn up as a Nazgul/Walker, but not as the big bad of the Mummer's Farce - and yes Stannis seems much more likely

Anent, Jon/Ghost running north, I'm very much reminded of an old SSM - I think a newspaper or magazine article - where GRRM was grumbling about writer's block and by way of example spoke of Jon being pursued through the forest and wondering where he could find food. It obviously didn't tell us much but would be entirely consistent with Jon/Ghost escaping.  The need for food sounds very Ghost-like

17 minutes ago, Mithras said:

The mutineers from Crasters.

Might be, but I'm not convinced that they are "hunting" rather than hunted

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ah yes!  The small but significant plot point .  What or who is compelling Ghost to go beyond the Wall and for what purpose?  It's Ghost that leads Jon to the cache of obsidian and the broken horn.

This might also be another small but significant plot point:

It suggests that the WWs and the wights can see a warg or skinchanger within their host animal.

I thought that this one was interesting:

"The snow was falling where his brother was, covering all the woods in white. And there were hunters near, living men and dead men, and the ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold."

"The ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold" is a superb description of the Walkers if we accept them as wargs forming temporary bodies of snow and ice and cold as discussed in previous heresies.

The dead hunters are obviously wights

But who are the "living men" ?  Ghost seems to sense that all three are working together. 

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

Makes more sense than Zombie Jon saves the world! 

That's rather the point. There' is of course an alternative theory played out in the Mummer's Farce that he will be raised from the dead by our Mel, who is of course handy situated. There are a number of problems with this - starting off with the possibility of her being complicit in the assassination and having no experience of such a trick, but ultimately the fact that Jon is not dead, but removed to a different body [Ghost]. On the other hand the Ghost/Jon travelling north not only works but makes sense of it all.

Then skipping over to Jon [and Ghost...

As you know I've argued for some time that his story arc is going to revolve around Winterfell and Winter rather than the Iron Throne etc etc. I've suggested that he's going to embrace the Musgrave Ritual and turn Cold, ie; become a Walker. To my mind that outcome makes a lot of sense, but the accomplishing of it has always been unclear. However, the hints here seem clear: that he gets his human body killed and jumps into Ghost. The problem then is how does he escape from Ghost, but if he and Ghost flee north into the Haunted Forest and make their way to Bran, then that offers Opportunities with a capital O 

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Although it's not a new concept within this thread, it is still interesting to see Melisandre explicitly refer to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall," since we might assume she's not speaking from a historical perspective--rather, she is probably stating what her own magical intuition is telling her about the nature of the Wall.

Yes, I agree. Mel's knowledge of history [and anything else] up north amounts to didley squat

Referring to the Nightfort as the "heart of the Wall" is of a piece with her descriptions of the Wall as a source of power. It also, moving on, suggests that the Nights King was a product of that power, ie; we're not going to see a return of the Nights King [GRRM has already dismissed him] but there could well be a "curse" on anybody forting up there at the present time.  

A long read, but oh so meaty and so important.

Lots of stuff to think about and discuss, not least the likely explanation of Jon and Ghost

announced today

Nothing metaphysical

We have a beginning, which I've argued is founded on the fall of die Mauer in this world and the Wall made of "ice and magic" - per his latest notablog entry.

We have a middle, we've discussed

And then we're looking towards a bittersweet ending based on that middle and those discussions

Straightforward, by itself, but...

Enter the House of the Dragon and the central question of the OP. Is it a part of the middle and if so has the ending changed after all ?

Nice piece on Casterley Rock in GRRM's notablog - and an ominous hint that Winds of Winter may still have a way to go.

We’ve been discussing the Song of Ice and Fire for some time [years and years] now of course and with no sign yet of another book have rather run out of material and so that some have turned to a variety of other [generally TV related] things.

With Christmas coming up I’d like to raise some ASOIAF questions about where people might think that this is going, and possibly the whys and wherefores of this.

The first thing to bear in mind of course is the question of time.

GRRM has been writing this story for a long time, a very long time. According to Wikipedia – and who am I to doubt it – he began writing ASOIAF in 1991, publishing the first book in what was intended to be a trilogy in 1996.

We’re now just over thirty years on from that beginning and so much has changed over the years. The world itself has changed. As I’ve pointed out before, GRRM began writing this story in the shadow of the collapse of the Iron Curtain or to we Europeans die Mauer – the Wall – on the night of 9 November 1989. The basic concept of the Wall and its ultimate fall was there from the very beginning – and so too was the question of which side the good guys are really on – die Mauer was built as a defence against the West[eros], not the other way around.

Leaving aside those awkward questions of good and bad, from the very beginning we were introduced to and have followed the Stark family, whose story is unfortunate but who are undoubtedly tied to the Wall and its ultimate fate.

Now many years ago GRRM firmly stated that he wouldn’t change the ending because somebody had figured it out. The Faithful of course loudly took this as confirmation that they were right in proclaiming Jon Snow/Stark to be the secret son of Rhaegar Targaryen!

Or did he mean something else ?

Consider the Dragons. We know from GRRM that they were a late addition to the story. Obviously they do figure, at least tentatively, by the time the first book was published, but presumably he was persuaded or inspired to include them at some point during the five years it took him to write it and that initially at least he began by writing a story about Westeros and die Mauer which did not include the Dragons or the Targaryens and may have contemplated an ending which did not require their intervention – ok an alternative is that he got himself stuck with the contemplated ending until it occurred to him that dragons were the answer, but somehow I doubt it.

The point is that the story, by which I specifically mean the Song of Ice and Fire, as written so far is about the Starks rather than the Targaryens. And now he, as an author has written and become involved in, a story about the Targaryens.

So…

How are the two related - really ?

Can we expect GRRM to continue to the end his 30+ year task of writing the Song of Ice and Fire and Starks, as would seem to be implied by his warnings about a bittersweet end, or has it changed into a Song of Ice [Starks] and Fire [Targaryens], using the House of the Dragon to add in a necessary part of the story that he didn’t contemplate at the outset and which hasn’t so far covered in the primary [for want of a better word] book ?

9 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

It seemed to me that they were saying Dany was going to marry Jon. What do you think?

Danaerys the Dragonlord doesn't come into it. The original synopsis linked Jon and Arya although some of us reckoned on Heresy that as written GRRM was going to substitute Sansa for Arya instead as being closer in age. All that the mummers' version has done is confirm this.

54 minutes ago, Chloe.a.thomson said:

Well, in the Inside the Episode, D&D confirm that Jon and Sansas relationship will contain conflict going forward. 

Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.  [GRRM 1993]