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Ibbison from Ibben

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Posts posted by Ibbison from Ibben

  1. On 11/4/2022 at 3:53 PM, BlackLightning said:

    This is wrong.


    I feel the need to respond to this, because I think you are not only misinterpreting what I said, but misinterpreting what the thread is about.

    To me, what the OP was asking was to judge what Bran's reactions would be when he found out what really happened when he fell. The OP felt Bran would be forgiving, while I contended that Bran would be much more transactional in his reaction. The OP was not asking for outside moral judgement on what happened - he was looking to get inside Bran's head to see how he would react. That is what my post was based upon.

    Your post did not seem to be based on what Bran would think, but be on outside judgement of the actions involved. That was not what I was writing about, because my evaluation was that was not what the thread was about. I was not trying to defend J & C, but was trying to put myself inside Bran's head. When I read that chapter, I definitely got the sense that Bran felt he might be doing something wrong by eavesdropping on the suspicious conversation, but felt compelled to do so due to what he heard. After all, was not Bran violating guest right by spying on his father's guests? Bran truly felt he was about to fall to his death, and was relieved and grateful when Jaime rescued him.

    That's what I was saying. If I was not clear, I apologize. Your response, however, seemed not to properly address my ideas, or the OP in general.

  2. We will first meet Howland after the Battle of Ice. Stannis will win the battle when the lake ice breaks beneath the Frey forces, and they are swallowed by the cold. Stannis will then implement his convoluted plan to fake his own death and gain access to Winterfell through subterfuge. It will prove to be wasted effort, however, as the northern lords will have already taken Winterfell from within. Stannis will see the gates of Winterfell thrown open to receive him, and will be greeted by Howland, his second cousin. Roose Bolton will be a prisoner, and all other Bolton and Frey loyalists will have been slaughtered, and their entrails hung in the Heart Tree.

  3. Howland Reed is currently lurking in the lower levels of the Winterfell crypts (the ones that rumor says are flooded, according to Theon - remember that Bran says the crypts are longer than Winterfell itself and which obviously lead to a secret entrance), along with Galbert Glover, Maege Mormont, and a picked force of northern warriors. Why else would Lady Dustin go to such great lengths to make sure that the door to crypts was dug out and free to open?

  4. With all due respect, I disagree. I see this issue more in terms of Bran's sense of honor, which he learned from his father.

    After Bran saw J & C having sex ( I deliberately did not use the term making love since I'm not sure it fits), he slipped from his perch. Jaime caught him, thus saving his life/health. Jaime didn't need to do that; it was not in his interest to do so. Bran understands that he owes Jaime a debt. If J & C had demanded Bran swear an oath of silence over what he saw, Bran would have undoubtedly complied as a matter of honor. Instead, Jaime chose to collect the debt by attempting to kill Bran. From an honor viewpoint, Jaime was within his rights to  end the life he had saved (from Bran's viewpoint.)

    Bran survived. The end result is that, since Jaime saved Bran's life then attempted to take it, Bran owes Jaime nothing. They are even. Bran will treat this as a wash, and if called upon to judge Jaime, will base his judgement on Jaime's other actions.

  5. On 10/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, BlackLightning said:

    Basically, I think that the version of Winds that we will get will be completely different from the version we would've gotten back in 2016.

    I think you're probably right on that.

    As of 2015-10-01-GRRM thought he could finish Winds by the end of the year. Then he decided to make some changes.

    Here's a quote from his Not-a-Blog post from 2016-01-02. (He wrote a massive 10 part year-in-review post for 2015 on 2016-01-01, but it got eaten. This his his abbreviated version from the next day.) It might be one of the most important documents in ASoIaF history.


    Early August saw me back east for my nephew's wedding and an appearance with the Staten Island Direwolves. I took advantage of the visit to have another sit down with my editors and publishers and told them that I didn't think I could deliver by Halloween. I thought they'd be sick about it... but I have to say, my editors and publishers are great, and they took it with surprising equanimity. (Maybe they knew it before I did). They already had contigencies in place. They had made plans to speed up production. If I could deliver WINDS OF WINTER by the end of the year, they told me, they could still get it our before the end of March.

    I was immensely relieved. I had two whole extra months! I could make that, certainly. August was an insane month, too much travel, too many other obligations... but I'd have September, October, and now November and December as well. Once again I was confident I could do it.

    Here it is, the first of January. The book is not done, not delivered. No words can change that. I tried, I promise you. I failed. I blew the Halloween deadline, and I've now blown the end of the year deadline. And that almost certainly means that no, THE WINDS OF WINTER will not be published before the sixth season of GAME OF THRONES premieres in April (mid April, we are now told, not early April, but those two weeks will not save me). Even as late as my birthday and our big Emmy win, I still thought I could do it... but the days and weeks flew by faster than the pile of pages grew, and (as I often do) I grew unhappy with some of the choices I'd made and began to revise... and suddenly it was October, and then November... and as the suspicion grew that I would not make it after all, a gloom set in, and I found myself struggling even more. The fewer the days, the greater the stress, and the slower the pace of my writing became.

    Emphasis is mine.

    He must have gone back in the story pretty deeply and cut the guts out of it.

  6. On 10/26/2022 at 10:03 AM, kissdbyfire said:

    I remember Martin saying later on that yes, he had decided to go w/ that twist. Has he said anything different since then? 

    Checking records ...

    The original tease was reported in EW by Hibberd on 2015-04-03

    GRRM confirmed he had pulled the trigger on it in the same venue on 2016-02-25.

    (Sorry for no links on those.)

    In his Time interview on 2017-07-13, he might have implied he had abandoned it.



    In the case of any of my novels, I know where I’m starting from, I know where I want to end up, more or less. I know some of the big turning points along the way, the stuff I’m building for, but you discover an awful lot along the way. Characters rise up and seem more important, and you get to what you’d thought was going to be a big turning point and… the thing you’d thought about two years ago doesn’t really work as well, so you have a better idea! There’s always that process of discovery for me. I know not all writers work that way, but it’s always been the way I work.

    So it's iffy.

  7. 12 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

    Are you saying that Alysanne was lying to Asha, then?

    I guess I'm assuming Alysanne is mistaken. Robb never mentioned Maege's younger daughters when he sent Maege to the Neck. (It seems unlikely Maege would take them with her, since the trip was considered to be quite risky, and no one around Robb suspected the Red Wedding.) Nor did we see them in Catelyn's ASoS POVs while Robb traveled to The Twins. Perhaps they were sent to Seagard. Perhaps they are hostages at The Twins. Perhaps this a GRRM screw-up. Or perhaps you are right, and I should stand corrected. If so, thank you for correcting me.

  8. Actually, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna are at Bear Island, while Maege is officially MIA, having been sent with Robbett Glover by Robb to be found by Howland Reed.

    I strongly suspect that Howland, Robbett, Maege, and a decent-sized hand picked force of Northerners are currently hiding in the lower levels of the Winterfell Crypts. (The crypts that are "longer than Winterfell itself" whose lower levels are supposedly flooded, so no one goes down there. Yeah, right.) They are conspiring with the northern lords to take down Roose when the time is ripe. Why else would Lady Dustin make sure the door to the crypts is shoveled clear and unstuck?

  9. Another thing to consider is that HBO would probably prefer that Winds and Dream never get published at all. If GRRM's version of ASOIAF ever sees the light of day, the show will look even worse than it already does. For them, keeping George busy working on new stuff for them is a double win.

    As to the OP, if it needs to be two volumes, so be it. The two battles plus other chapters that were originally planned for Dance are going to take up around 250 MS pages anyway. GRRM started Winds in the hole by that much from the beginning.

  10. In April 2018, GRRM mentioned in the comments section of NaB that he was getting pressure from his publishers to split Winds into two volumes, which he was resisting. That would indicate he was approaching, or had already surpassed, 1500 MS pages. He probably spent quite a bit of effort trying to condense things. When he mentioned he was rewriting some of the sample chapters in the summer of 2020, I hoped that was part of the process. The Feb 2021 post, "... most productive year, finished hundreds of pages, hundreds more to go", seemed to indicate that he gave up condensing, and if he was going to run over 1500 MS pages he might as well expand to his heart's content.

    Short version = indecisiveness and changed plans led to a lot of wasted effort.

    As for 2015/16, as of Oct 1, 2015, he thought he could finish by the end of the year. He must have had around 1200 pages done. His top pace seems to be 50 pages/month, which he can sustain for about six months when the writing is going well. Then he started making changes, probably pretty deep in the story. He also seemed to spend time in 2016-18 wandering down dead ends. (Remember that "plot Twist" he announced, which he likely changed afterward?)

  11. On 6/4/2016 at 10:35 PM, Boarsbane said:

    For some reason Aeron came across as way more likable for me, maybe because this chapter really show cased how much of an animal Euron is but Aeron just seemed less annoying even though he kept droning on about the Drowned God. Euron has always come across as creepy and what he did to Blacktyde was disturbing but he's setting up to be the scariest villain we've seen in my opinion, obviously not the most realistic but to me he is even more unsettling than Roose or Ramsay. 

    In the past, Aeron has always come off as a narrow-minded prig who is able to wield authority. In this chapter, we see Aeron stripped of his power. That quite often can make a character seem more sympathetic just on its own. Aeron earns a lot more sympathy points here by showing that, deep down, he's a decent guy. He maintains his faith and his principles under duress, and shows that cares for other victims like Falia.

  12. 19 hours ago, Mystrandir said:

    I believe that would be one of the swords taken from the Winterfell crypts, assuming she carried it all the way.

    But they didn't do that in the show. Thanks for responding, but I was actually curious as to whether Meera was carrying a sword in the tunnel chase in ep 605 or later. I couldn't tell from the clips. ( I haven't seen the show.) There were stills from ep 606 (the second Bran-Meera-BenHands scene) that showed a sword leaning against the tree Bran and Meera were huddled under. Was that Meera's or BenHands'?

  13. 5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    Well, that's interesting. I'd laugh if Robert had been too stupid to realize that he had a bunch of Valyrian steel armor in his stolen castle. But one should assume that other people would have figured out what those things were. On the other hand, if nobody had actually touched or investigated them since the Sack then, well, they might be Valyrian steel.

    But then the Targaryens most likely had long forgotten that they had stuff like that. Else they would have worn it in battle.

    Maybe those suits were especially made for ground-based anti-dragon warfare. Once all the dragons were dead, the Targs put them on display like a museum. That gallery seems to be in a very obscure corner of the Red Keep, and the suits might have been there for 150 years. Dunno. They don't seem to have the glyphs of Euron's armor. But those armor suits are one of my favorite unexplained mysteries, and Euron's armor tweaked my memory.

  14. With the more detailed transcriptions, we now know that Euron's Valyian steel armor is scale armor.

    (from AngryGotFan's transcription)


    Euron Crow’s Eye stood upon the deck of Silence clad in a suit of black-scaled armor like nothing Aeron had ever seen before. Dark as smoke it was, but Euron wore it as easy as if it was the thinnest silk. The scales were edged in red gold that gleamed and shimmered when he moved. Patterns could be seen within the metal. Whorls and glyphs and arcane symbols molded into steel. Valyrian steel, the Damphair knew. His armor is Valyrian steel.

    This immediately reminded me of this -

    (AGoT, Eddard IV)


    Hesitantly, Ned followed. Littlefinger led him into a tower, down a stair, across a small sunken courtyard, and along a deserted corridor where empty suits of armor stood sentinel along the walls. They were relics of the Targaryens, black steel with dragon scales cresting their helms, now dusty and forgotten.

    and this -

    (ASoS, Sansa V)


    They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

    Similar stuff, perhaps?

  15. Euron is gathering priests of all religions . . . but the Old Gods have no priests. Greenseers are wizards, but they do not lead religious observances. The First Men bowed before a heart tree with no need for an official. Is the woman performing the sacrifice in Bran's last vision a woods witch, a priestess, or just some old woman? We don't know. It may be that whatever religious magic Euron is attempting to use through the various priests, the magic of the Old Gods may not be a part of it. He hasn't strapped a weirwood branch to the prow of a ship, has he?

    Just guessing here, of course. It seems that the Old Gods are sometimes exceptions to the rules. Valar Morghulis - All Men Must Die - unless you are a greenseer, in which case your memories may live forever.

  16. 2 minutes ago, Patrick Tully said:

    So, nearly 5 years ago at WorldCon the audience chose wrong, even after GRRM tried to get them to reconsider. Every time someone since someone has suggested they want GRRM to read it, people chime in to say it would be lame. I hope everyone has enjoyed discussing Arrianne II for all this time. :)


    With all due respect, the previous two Aeron chapters were, in the opinion of many, not all that great. This one appears to be much more interesting. Had I been in attendance lo those many years ago, i would have chosen Arianne as well.

  17. 1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

    It was never about Theon winning the Kingsmot though, at least insofar as I could tell. It was about invalidating the outcome because there was a potential claimant missing. That then allows Asha a second pop, which works best if Euron has suffered some major defeat

    I don't think Asha can get a second pop. She's already been rejected once, and is bound by the results. But it may open up chances for anyone who didn't put themselves forth at the first moot, namely Rodrik the Reader or Tris Botley.

  18. 6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    @Ibbison from Ibben

    I don't think the captains of the Golden Company knew anything about Aegon's real identity if he isn't Rhaegar's son.

    Assuming the theory is true, Toyne knew, of course. Strickland must know. Homeless Harry isn't the greatest leader in GC history. In order to get full cooperation, he might have been forced to tell some or all of his captains. Especially the intel specialist.

    6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    We can safely assume that Randyll Tarly is not particularly devout and doesn't give a damn about that 'holy oath' he swore to the High Septon. 

    Frankly, I don't see any support for that assumption. Tarly certainly holds the current HS in contempt, but that seems to stem from disdain for his social status. We have no way to know just how important keeping a holy oath is to Tarly.

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