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Lord Varys

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  1. I guess Rhaenyra will be the first to loathe the bitch queen. The show has Alicent make a big point about wanting to mutilate Luke ... and then Aemond conveniently murders the boy. If Aegon also feasts the moron like he does in the book the Blacks are going to hear about that on Dragonstone and they will draw their own conclusions. Still, targeting Helaena's children is stupid and will likely not be Rhaenyra's or even Daemon's command. But they will command the death of some Green royal, so Alicent will certainly have reason enough to hate Rhaenyra afterwards. But since Alicent will end up becoming Rhaenyra's prisoner there is a good chance that they talk a lot and also do address what happened earlier. For instance, to add complexity to the story we could see Aemond claiming he deliberately killed Luke to avenge himself, could see him getting feasted by Aegon ... only for him to be secretly remorseful after Blood and Cheese and confessing to his mother that he did, not in fact, want to kill Luke. That could come up in a talk between Rhaenyra and Alicent later ... where Rhaenyra could then also tell Alicent that she never commanded the murder of Jaehaerys. Possibly the Honeywine or stuff in the Riverlands. The Gullet was never a great climax. It is pointless battle, resolving nothing. Rhaenyra's ascending the Iron Throne would be a great climax, but that's obviously not for next season.
  2. Some Valyrian hair is silver-gold, and some only silver, i.e. white blond. That is the case for Maekar and perhaps also Jaehaerys' Aemon. The connection is there, although not every white-blond person would have Valyrian ancestors.
  3. Tyrion's Targaryen characteristics are not just the mismatched eyes which we have confirmed for two Targaryen offspring, one of which would be Tyrion's direct ancestor (Alyssa Targaryen), the other a child of another direct ancestor of Tyrion (Shiera Seastar). But the other characteristic is his blond hair which is so blond that he can appear as white - which means his hair is literally closer to that of Targaryens like Maekar than the golden hair the Lannisters are famous for. Such an abberation might be easily missed in a Lannister who is expected to have fair hair ... but it is right there, for everybody to see. It is just overlooked often by the readership because Tyrion's hair is rarely described.
  4. We don't know why she wanted to be queen in the book. The only reason she gives is that her father named her heir - and he did that when she was still a little girl and not because she wanted it, but because he and Otto wanted it (at that time). That means her entire campaign could be that of a dutiful daughter, fighting to defend the will or her father and the claims of her sons, not so much her own. I'm not sure that would be her only motivation, but it is actually the motivation we have. In that see she might not that different from Robb, say, whose main motivation is to defend the honor of his (late) father, Doran/Oberyn who want to avenge the murder of their sister, or Daenerys and the Stark children, who want to avenge the wrongs done to their parents/siblings. While it would have been good if the show had given Rhaenyra some of the haughtiness and arrongance that comes with being the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne for decades ... it is not really likely that she would actually view herself as the obvious and rightful heir considering she lived in a society where her being the heir defied tradition and most previous precedents. The only Westeros precedents where an (elder) daughter came before a son would have been Marla Sunderland becoming queen instead of her brother Steffon ... and the succession in Dorne from Nymeria onwards.
  5. Dude, I know the guy wrote the books, but I also do know the guy isn't bound to random talks or even previously released chapters of his books (or all the material he actually published - he retconned things, too) since he changed that previously. So the moment we have confirmation Euron went to Valyria is when the published books confirm it - and so far the published books only include a claim that he went there, a claim made by a lying shithead psychopath another knowledgable character doubts. Meaning he could have been in Valyria ... or not. But I'm not sure I care much about this question - the plot relevant stuff seems to be that Euron got the horn and Valyrian armor, not where or how he got those things.
  6. The show has the added layer of the prophecy and destiny thing we can reasonably assume George didn't had in mind for the book. Although since the history is very brief and lacks insight into the inner feelings and desires of the characters, we have literally no clue what drove Rhaenyra to want to be queen. We have a very sketchy and contradicting outside perspective filtered through history. The one time Rhaenyra talks about her claim and queenship in FaB it fits more with the 'it is my duty' approach from the show since she tells Orwyle that her father made her heir and that's why she is queen. Her take on her claim is not 'I'm the better ruler' or 'I'm stronger' or 'I just bloody want it'.
  7. Just thinking a bit more about the Larys Strong issue: I think the better way to have him there would have to show him real vulnerability in his early scenes at court ... best accomplished if we had it implied or confirmed that the Strong boys grew up with Alicent and Rhaenyra and the Velaryon children at court. Larys could have had secret hopes of marrying Alicent himself prior to Otto's schemes to make her queen. Alicent could have been nice to Larys, noticing her was attracted to her, without really encouraging him deliberately or giving him hope for her hand. Although I think it would have good if there had been an indication that Alicent had set her eyes on somebody that wasn't Viserys ... or that Otto originally had another plan for her - Laenor Velaryon springs to mind, and also Lyonel (who should be a widower at that time) or Harwin Strong. With Otto being the Hand we have to assume that before the opportunity presented itself to make Alicent queen he would have wanted her to marry a great lord or a great lord's heir. As the episodes progress and Alicent becomes queen we could have seen Alicent turn to Larys of her own volition, knowing his weakness for her, exploiting it, because she noticed or knew for her time as children that her was very perceptive and lifed to ferret out secrets. That way we would have a Larys who is actually a proper 'foot slave' there, and who is not in charge of the relationship there - both because Alicent would be the queen but, more importantly, also because she always would have had the upper hand in their relationship. We could have also seen Alicent advancing Larys at court, arranging his appointment as Lord Confessor with Viserys and/or her father, and eventually pushing Viserys to name him to the Small Council - where he should have been as he was in the book when Viserys died. The dynamics during the Strong murders should also have been somewhat different, I think, but I'll talk about then when I rewatched the next episode. I must say that rewatching things I'm pretty flabbergasted that they didn't introduce more characters earlier in time. They wouldn't have to do more, just be there - like, as I said, Harwin and Larys could have been in the royal box with their father in the pilot, Harwin among Daemon's gold cloaks, etc. Having the Strong boys only in episode 3 is a mistake - and more so not having Larys in episode 4. Also, as I said, with Borros Baratheon not being in episode 4, or Jeyne Arryn and Rickon Stark (without Cregan) not showing up for Rhaenyra's wedding. In fact, the Royce cousin could have been dropped from the wedding scene with Lady Jeyne - sitting on the podium as a relation of the royal family - confronting Daemon about the (alleged) murder of his wife. She could have shown teeth there, threatening to have his head were he to show himself in the Vale again. It could have also given us a glimpse as to how Jeyne stood to Viserys and Rhaenyra in general - a relationship that is sadly also not developed in the book. And as others have already said, the perfect opportunity to introduce Jeyne was in the pilot - where she and other Arryns would have been for the tourney and then subsequently attending the funeral of Queen Aemma as well as Rhaenyra's investiture as heir - where the scene of Jeyne Arryn kneeling in front of the Iron Throne and swearing her fealty to Rhaenyra could have powerfully hammered home the fact that there are powerful women in their own right in this world ... and that this 'women cannot rule' mantra that is so often repeated is actually not true in the Seven Kingdoms outside Dorne. It is hard(er) for women than men, but not impossible nor does it never happen. Have a kind of little implicated subplot about the question whether the Vale will stand with Rhaenyra after the Rhea Royce affair could have been more powerful - and giving more gravitas to Jace's mission in the season finale - than the whole thing they were spinning about 'Velaryon neutrality' and 'Velaryon reluctance to turn Black'. Rhaenys and Corlys should have been in team Black from the moment of the Rhaenyra-Laenor and the Daemon-Laena match. They could have played up some tension there over the Strong affair ... but all that should and would have gone away with the Daemon-Rhaenyra marriage which makes both Laenor's legal sons as well as Laena's daughters part of a big Targaryen patchwork family. Corlys and Rhaenys could not entangle themselves from this net even if they tried - and they would have no motive to do so even before Laena's daughters are betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons because having your grandchildren as the (step-)children of the future monarch is the best thing you could hope for. But I get ahead of myself there.
  8. Yes, that's why I said we didn't know much. We know more about the Starks than the Lannisters since their family tree goes further back ... but we still don't know much. It easily imaginable, for instance, that one of the daughters of Cregan Stark married into a another great house. The eldest could be old enough for Baela and Alyn's eldest son, Loreon Lannister, Royce Baratheon or perhaps Kermit Tully's heir. Yes, the story of Branda Stark and Benedict Rogers certainly is interesting, but she was Lyarra's sister, from Rodrik's branch of the family - from her doesn't come a strong claim to Winterfell. Assuming she and her husband produced issue that's still living during the main series. So far we have yet many anyone named Rogers ... and it would be odd if such Rogers people didn't gravitate towards Robert and Ned during the Rebellion. But then, certainly, a son or grandson of Branda could have died during Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.
  9. That strikes me as enormously unlikely. Do you think Ned would allow that a king is tortured? I don't even think Robert would want that. Also, with the deposing or trying a king would set a very bad precedent for the monarchy, giving Robert's lords the right to arrest and try him, too, I doubt that Aerys would have been tried and executed. They would have taken him into custody and then they would have clandestinely murdered him. Aerys would have gone more like Maegor and and Aegon II. But Tywin would have just had his murder Aerys like they dealt with Elia and the children. The entire point of his intervention was to show Robert he was on their side now - and a crucial piece of this was to take the burden of murdering royals off Robert's back. Also, of course, no pity with the moron Jaime at all. He joined the KG of a man who was already known as 'Aerys the Mad', a king who had already started to issue ever more cruel sentences and acting ever more paranoid and unhinged since Duskendale. If you want to be Caligula's little bitch - as Jaime did - own it, don't whine or complain. He was in a position to know everything about Aerys as the son of the Hand! Cersei cunt may be wet and warm and all that ... but she is no excuse for actually thinking before making a lifelong commitment to a madman! In pretty much every book last minute defection of the victorious side in a struggle is a craven and opportunistic thing to do. If Jaime did a great thing, so did Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon when they murdered Aegon II, so did Roose and Walder when they put down Robb, etc.
  10. The only thing the family trees from TWoIaF tell us is that some of the ruling Starks and Lannisters didn't intermarry much with houses from other regions. It doesn't tell us much about what younger sons and daughters did. We do know that there were Baratheon-Lannister matches throughout the Targaryen reign, we know that a daughter of Torrhen Stark married Ronnel Arryn, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if Royce Baratheon and Loreon Lannister ended up with brides from other great houses, daughters of Kermit Tully, say. That the current Starks and Lannisters aren't close cousins to any other major house is also more or less necessary for the plot, since any of the players having some flimsy or weak claim to Winterfell, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, etc. should play a role in the plot. The idea that a setting such as the one we have in the books is unusual doesn't feel right. It is easily possible that some of the great houses got equally close, for a time, after the Conquest, during the reign of Jaehaerys with the many matches arranged by Rhaenys, Visenya, and Alysanne ... and also in the wake of the Dance due to lasting Black or Green affiliations. Another such instance could have been a closeness of crucial houses who participated in the Conquest of Dorne. Ditto with the Blackfyre Rebellions, etc. One would actually imagine that the War of the Ninepenny Kings is the foundation for a lot of what we see in the main series. It established the friendship between Aerys, Tywin, and Steffon ... and it might be that Rickard Stark participated there, too. Even if he wasn't a part of that, it seems that Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully were, so Steffon's decision to foster Robert with Jon may have the same origin as Hoster's decision to foster Petyr Baelish.
  11. And on to 'We Light the Way': Rhea Royce's actress is far too young for Daemon ... and it is silly that they have her as the heir to Runestone when she was its lady already. What was the point of that silly change? Looking on things on a larger screen, I feel the scene doesn't suck to the same degree. Rhea is on the way home and we can see a castle behind Daemon in the background, presumably Runestone. So he arrived there, presumably on dragonback (with the dragon nowhere in sight, of course), learned that his dear lady wife was on a hunt and awaited her return. Strangely enough, I don't think the whole thing has to be interpreted as a premeditated murder. He just stands there, possibly not knowing what he wants to do. It is Rhea who concludes that he might want to kill her and her fear that triggers the horse to throw her, unless I'm mistaken. The actual murder afterwards looks more like a mercy killing than a premeditated thing. When he steps on her arm he seems to test whether she still feels any pain or can move her arm ... which she can't. And her final insult to him might very well be her goading him into killing her because she didn't want to live that way. That said - it is still not exactly well shot, nor does the later talk make much sense. If Daemon wanted to claim Runestone for himself, he would have done so after Rhea's death. He should have also attended her funeral, meaning her cousin would have confronted him earlier. The drag to Driftmark is kind of silly. There should have been talk as to why they didn't fly on dragonback (Syrax would be large enough for Rhaenyra and Viserys) and the island of Driftmark is not just completely empty but also lacking of dragons. Both Seasmoke and Meleys should be kept outside the castle, with Rhaenyra and Laenor perhaps visiting them during their walk. No idea if any scenes were written, shot, cut which give background to Corlys' voyages, but nobody gives a damn about High Tide or the Hall of Nine if we don't fucking know who Corlys Velaryon actually is and what he did accomplish. The guy is only stubbornly ambitious. The talk between Rhaenys and Corlys should have things reversed - she should have been ambitious and he should have been cautious - he is Mr. Peacemaker Guy later, according to the book, so Rhaenys should have been the one wanting her son as king consort and her grandchild on the throne. Eve Best plays the character well, but the writing is just bad for her. And it still feels childish that Corlys would actually think Laenor would outgrow his taste for men. The guy would have lived all his life in an all male environment at sea ... he would have gotten his decent share of romances and relationships among seamen, and would have also learned that such people use to tend to go from guy to guy if it is up to them. The Velaryon family had the chance to be more inclusive and tolerant than they are actually portrayed. Something I just realized is missing are nicknames - Viserys could have been Vis to close family, Rhaenyra Rhae or Nyra, Rhaenys Rhae or Nyssa, Alicent Allie, and so on. Otto and Alicent are kind of okay, but Alicent should have been more on page Aegon at that point ... and speaking about Aegon: The fact that he is nowhere to be seen and apparently doesn't attend his half-sister's wedding makes absolutely no sense. Helaena's absence is okay as she is still a babe, but Aegon isn't. Aegon should have been there in Targaryen colors during the farewell scene with Otto. It is good to see that Otto is the father of the 'Rhaenyra has to kill your children to secure her throne' idea ... and that this is effectively just a narrative he uses to manipulate his daughter. I don't think he himself actually believes that. But it is very fitting and badly reflecting on him and his goons later on that they prepare to murder Rhaenyra and her family to secure Aegon's throne. Larys Strong's manipulation is completely unnecessary and kind of weird. Why would he do that at this point? Why not try to gain Alicent's favor in a different way? And why does Alicent need to be manipulated there - it would have been better to have her agitated after she sent her father off, turning on her own volition to Larys or somebody else for information on Rhaenyra. Both Criston Cole talks make sense, and I do like how Rhaenyra's biggest issue in rejecting him is her duty to prophecy and destiny, not so much a desire to rule. But Criston cannot know this, and so she comes across as pretty harsh. Alicent being visibly stricken about Criston's confession also makes sense if you think what kind of taboo he and Rhaenyra broke there. Whoever does that, is capable of a lot of other things ... or so Alicent might think. But I think the scene is missing a proper conclusion - Alicent indicating that she wouldn't rat out Criston and giving a reason for that. Viserys and Lyonel are fine, too, although Viserys collapses far too often considering that he is going to live for about 20 years thereafter. The whole setting seemed to indicate that Viserys may have even died at the end - which a lot of the non-book reader audience thought. The wedding reception is also not that bad for the most part. But there should have been more guests, perhaps the Starks and most definitely Lady Jeyne Arryn as Rhaenyra's cousin. Aegon should have come into the throne room together with Alicent, and we should have seen some people cheering him - especially the Hightowers - creating some tension in the hall and on the royal podium. Don't like the lack of familiarity between Laena and Daemon. They should have gone with 'cousin' there, rather than 'my prince'. The Criston Cole rampage is absolutely inexcusable. It makes no sense at all. The guy even strikes Laenor in front of witnesses, a member of the extended royal family, and now the future king consort. The notion that Laenor, in turn, would allow that mad freak to train his sons at arms later is absolutely ludicrous. As is the fact that he can remain a KG. That is like Meryn Trant continuing on the KG after he struck, say, Selyse Baratheon for some reason. But the murder of Joffrey in and of itself is also inexcusable and would have needed an explanation. The guy bashes his head in. And there is no indication that the guy ever wanted to do anything to anyone. Yet even if he could convince people that Joffrey wanted to murder somebody (no idea who that could have been in light of the fact that Joff and Criston where nowhere near a member of the royal family - and most definitely not the king or Rhaenyra) - his unhinged reaction should make it clear to all that he was, perhaps, suited to guard the royal hunting dogs but not members of the royal family. Even with an episode taking place thereafter trying to resolve this issue ... it would have likely not worked. Because it makes no sense. They really failed to make use of Harwin Strong in the first five episodes. Both he and the Velaryon children could have been more prominent. In fact, we could have had the impression that Rhaenyra and Alicent grew up together with the Velaryon and Strong children. A tidbit I very much liked was the quick shot on Lyman Beesbury when Laenor and Rhaenyra are celebrated. Honest loyalist, that man. Being through with the first half of the season, I have to stay I still enjoyed it pretty much. Despite there being a lot of problems.
  12. The way the show portrays it, Daemon's incompetence at his jobs is, in part, an exaggeration by Otto. He even admits that he wants Daemon gone from court entirely, so there is a chance that even a younger Daemon wouldn't have sucked completely as king. We can also imagine that he wouldn't abandon the Iron Throne as easily as his 'Narrow Sea kingdom'. The older Daemon seems to be a guy who could have been a decent, if largely absent, ruler. His rule would have been harsher than that of Viserys and Jaehaerys, but there is no indication he would have wanted to be a Maegor.
  13. There are statements by George that Robert made his intention known to be the king 'around the time of the Trident'. Likely some time before that. But with there still be a king on the throne and multiple heirs - especially Rhaegar - around, this would have been more a declaration of his intention to the take the throne rather than his followers already crowning him or styling him as king. I could be wrong about the latter, but Robert's own narrative that he won his crown on the Trident kind of implies that he and his allies decided that the death of Rhaegar in battle - him being personally slain by Robert - marked the moment where they decided that they would now get rid not only of Aerys and Rhaegar but the entire Targaryen dynasty. I think it could have gone quite different even if they had won - say, if Rhaegar had been captured alive or gotten away, if Rhaegar's children had been captured alive, etc. I think whatever Robert did in the field we can compare to what Rogar Baratheon and Jaehaerys did at Storm's End while Maegor was yet alive - and what Prince Aegon do once he has taken Storm's End. Declaring your intention to take the throne and the kingship without actually having a coronation yet. That would wait until you have secured the Iron Throne. And it is also when Robert's actual reign started - with his coronation in KL, not the Trident or the Sack. Even that we don't know. While we can assume that no Northern lord declared for and fought for Aerys ... Rhaegar having more men on the Trident means that Ned cannot have assembled the entire strength of the North. Not with there being lots of Riverlanders and Vale men, too. Robert's own Stormlanders wouldn't be there, for the most part, being part of the army that was defeated at Ashford and then, for the most part, at Stoney Sept before Ned showed up. It is indeed very odd that Aerys named Rhaegar his general there. We don't even know what title he had - he wasn't the Hand, so perhaps Aerys parted with the 'Protector of the Realm' title, no idea. Could be that prophecy nonsense played a role there. Aerys believing his son couldn't fail because he was the promised prince, after all. Or Rhaegar thought he had to do this because he was destined to produce the third dragon head (and didn't know about Lya's pregnancy). Aerys had much better choices for leading his armies then any of the people he actually named. First there was Gerold Hightower, the general who fought and won the War of the Ninepenny Kings after the early death of Ormund Baratheon, and second there was the slayer of Maelys the Monstrous, the hero of Duskendale, the immortal Barristan Selmy. Rhaegar could have been with the army like Aerys and Tywin were on the Stepstones, too - but not as the general but the king's heir showing his face. We can imagine that Lewyn and Barristan and the other KG and many lords and knights advised Rhaegar during his campaign ... but as far as we know at this point Rhaegar made the decisions. But it is very confusing that Aerys would ever turn to Connington and Chelsted rather than Hightower or Selmy for the Handship. They were Kingsguard and veterans of great battles - and Hightower a proven general. Aerys should have trusted them both. I guess George will come up with some reasons - the mad whims of a madmen could easily jump on the fanciful idea of using 'a young Stormlord to crush another' or some other such nonsense - but this kind of thing definitely shows that Aerys' government was bumbling around. Worst part of history of the Rebellion is this 'nothing happened for half a year' stuff. There must have been some other fighting there, and very good explanations why the loyalists in the Reach didn't marshal armies to crush the rebels in the Riverlands. Also, of course, if Ned and Hoster (and Jon) already had their full strength in the Riverlands for Stoney Sept, it also makes no sense for them to sit on their asses and wait for months.
  14. Aegon II is much worse than a rapist in the book, so this is just fine. In fact, we do hear that he fathered bastard on some servingwoman of his mother's in the book, and that is clearly their rendering of that event.
  15. Yes. My criticisim is aimed at the point in time Corlys first suggests this match - it is when Rhaenyra is at the height of her power and they discuss how to deal with the remaining Greens in the field. Corlys suggests pardons Aegon II and his brothers, gracious terms to the Green lords ... and this match between Jaehaera and Aegon the Younger. Which just doesn't make much sense at that time. Later it does because it neutralizes Jaehaera's claim and puts her in the power of Aegon III. I mean, on the outside it looks as if the marriage is a unification thing - and dynastically it could have been. But politically it neutralized Jaehaera's ability to become an independent pretender. She would never be used as a pretender against Aegon III by other people nor put forth her own claim as a grown woman. She would also not breed with some great lord (Borros Baratheon's son Royce, say) to transfer her blood claim to the scions of a powerful family. Instead, she would give birth to Rhaenyra's grandchildren.
  16. No, it isn't. There is a qualifier there, 'in the eyes of many'. And that was weakened by the fact that Viserys I ignored it, named Rhaenyra, and more than half the Realm fought for her and her sons from her first marriage. Now, Aegon III's descent from Rhaenyra and Daemon might be cited later when Baelor's sisters and Rhaegel's daughter is passed over ... but it played no role at all in the ascension of Aegon III. Poison and betrayal and a coup made him king, very much like Maegor and Aegon II. Legal arguments never came up. And when the succession of Aegon III is discussed by the regents Jaehaera's blood claim is viewed as stronger than Aegon's own. Her problem is her youth and mental state, not her sex. Your idea could be a later ad hoc justification to weaken or ignore the female (line) claim, but I would be surprised if that ever came up. If Rhaenyra is a traitor, Daemon is worse and as able to pass on claims as Daemon Blackfyre in the eyes of Bloodraven, say. Also, note that Tyland Lannister effectively ridicules the 'only male line claimants' idea in light of the fact that prior to the return of Viserys there were none such. At best they could hope for Baela and Rhaena producing sons. In their absence the throne would have to go to one of them or a daughter of theirs.
  17. That is faulty fanon, made up by people who want to resolve non-existing problems. Nobody in the book mentions Aegon III's claim going through Daemon. Nor does anyone bring it up later. From the Green perspective Daemon was a worse traitor than Rhaenyra, so if she was no queen Daemon would be an attainted traitor, too, like Shireen Baratheon is from the point of view of the Lannister regime. No one's claim could pass through Daemon if their claim was considered by a Green loyalist. Also, in context, talk about Daemon makes no sense at all. Aegon III is proclaimed king in a coup after Aegon II has been murdered by his own men. They do this to save themselves from the wrath of Rhaenyra's followers knocking at their gates. The only reason why Aegon III is proclaimed king and not Jaehaera proclaimed queen is that the Blacks crushed the Greens in the field. That is why Aegon II is murdered. Had Aegon III not been Rhaenyra's son nobody would have proclaimed him king. We can say that the fact that Aegon II (kind of) accepted Aegon III as his temporary heir would have helped to smooth over things with the remaining Greens. Corlys and Larys and the Lads and Cregan could say that the late king was also fine with Aegon III succeeding him - just as he was with his daughter Jaehaera marrying her first cousin - so who would be the Lannisters and Baratheons and Hightowers to complain ... but as you say, that's clearly not the reason why and how he became king. It wasn't a Pyrrhic victory as far as I see it. The Greens stopped fighting but the Blacks had the numbers to continue the war. Sure enough, the Blacks decided not to include Greens in the regency government and they failed to control the government due to the fact that Corlys died too early and the Corbray Protector of the Realm was incompetent and also died early ... but from a dynastic victory it was a total victory as Rhaenyra's bloodline prevailed. It became even more total when Unwin Peake freed Aegon III from his Green queen and enabled him to pick a Velaryon bride. Corlys' obsession with that weird-as-hell Aegon-Jaehaera match just makes no sense. He ridiculously brings it up first while Jaehaera is on the run with her KG and could already be dead ... and then he suggests marrying Aegon II's daughter to Rhaenyra's younger surviving son, not her heir, Joffrey Velaryon. That would have resolved nothing. (I know that Joff was promised to a Manderly girl, but that was when he was but Rhaenyra's third son, not her heir.) Also, it feels completely weird that Corlys would want Aegon II's daughter marrying Aegon the Younger while his own granddaughters Baela and Rhaena are yet unmarried - they would be ideally suited to be married to Joffrey and/or Aegon instead of a missing princess who might even be dead. Corlys should have suggested one of his granddaughters marry Daeron the Daring. And the Aegon-Jaehaera match should have been an idea he only formed after Aegon II's restoration and the revelation that Jaehaera lived and had been taken to Storm's End.
  18. LOL, no, he became king because his side won the war and killed Aegon II. And had he been female and exactly in the same position Corlys and Larys would have crowned Queen Aegona I to spare themselves the wrath of the Lads and Cregan Stark. They wouldn't have turned to a pretender at Storm's End they couldn't even lay their hands on - a pretender whose proclamation would only further enrage the victorious armies descending on King's Landing. Aegon III was obviously first and foremost THE HEIR OF HIS MOTHER because the only reason he yet lived and still had a claim is because HIS MOTHER'S LOYALISTS continued the war after her death. That he was also named heir of Aegon II is testament only of the strength of the Black cause at the court of Aegon II. Aegon III had still so many supporters that the way to placate them was to suggest to betroth him to Jaehaera and name them joint heirs. This wasn't done because the Greens thought the only Targaryen male left alive should be the heir of King Aegon II. That would have been silly and ludicrous. LOL, you don't get it that this was a dynastic struggle first and foremost, not a struggle for a particular law of succession. It is like saying Maegor fought for the right of the second son to be king once the first son dies, or Robert for the right of cousin inheritance. Rhaenyra fought for herself as much as for her sons ... and her cause triumphed in the end because he bloodline ended up being in charge whilst the Green Targaryens died out. LOL, no. You pretend to know the book. Tyland wasn't even there when Aegon II was murdered and replaced by Aegon III. Had he and Marston Waters been there, they would have likely been killed, too, because they were too loyal to Aegon II. Tyland was chosen as Hand because he was deemed weak because of the mutilations he suffered. That was not the case as it turned out, but he was not chosen because he was in a position of strength. And in sense you can interpret his apparent loyalty to Aegon III - the prince he wanted to murder earlier! - as a way to suck up to the king, i.e. as weakness because he may have feared correctly that were he to antagonize the boy further the boy might turn on him and have his head the very day he took the government into his own hands. The setup of the Regency government has literally nothing to do with the fact that the Blacks won. They included men from the losing side into the government they built - because the moron Corlys Velaryon thought this was necessary. That's also why they went through with the Jaehaera match. It prevented the Greens from making her a pretender in her own right. But, of course, it was the ultimate betryal of Elenda Baratheon to hand Jaehaera to Aegon III and his government. Compare it to Jaehaerys' victory over Maegor. He, too, ended up included former Maegor loyalists into his government - but he didn't have to do this. He and his mother decided to take that road. They didn't have to. Aegon III only got a regency council made up of Blacks and Greens because Cregan Stark gave up his power. You pull the idea out of your ass that the widows had been placated there. They agreed to terms long before a regency government was set up. That took place months later after the wedding of Aegon III and Jaehaera. You don't seem to understand that people in power are free to give up that power. Which is what they did. Peake's rise has literally nothing to do with the power dynamics at the end of the war. He wasn't even part of the regency council originally - and could only enter into it and amass power because others on the council and crucial royal officials died like flies during the Winter Fever. Again, you are pulling stuff out of your ass. The proclamation of King Aegon III was not negotiable. He is proclaimed king and treated as such from the moment of Aegon II's murder after which Larys, Corlys, and Aegon III welcome the Lads in the city. The new king is already made, and whatever terms were offered to the defeated Greens didn't involve him being unmade. Jaehaera's inclusion was also not yet settled when Aegon III was proclaimed king. As Cregan points out, Lady Elenda has Jaehaera, she could crown her queen. She could have also decided to keep her price and betroth Jaehaera Targaryen to her newborn son Royce. There was no automatism there. For some reason Corlys of all people wanted that match and he eventually got it. But it has literally nothing to do with Aegon III becoming king. Nor was it anything any Greens insisted on as condition to lay down arms. Effectively all of them didn't want to continue the war, not even Lyonel Hightower. Aegon II lost his war because his allies abandoned him even before his murder. It was overwhelmingly generous indeed. They didn't have to do any of that. It was an attempt to heal the wounds and unite the Realm again ... but never a condition for peace. It is like saying the Germans or Iraqis being allowed to rule themselves after they were crushed in war means they somehow 'didn't lose'. They lost, but the victors then decided that they would allow the defeated to choose their own (civil) government. The victorious Blacks also decided to include some Greens in the government they created. It is not only that, but he could also have done it better. By not deciding to make Rhaenyra the anointed heir of her father. By not going with Aegon the Younger actually being Aegon II's hostage. By allowing Aegon II the grace of a natural death (his many injuries could have easily enough triggered some sort of complication which, in turn, would then cause an early natural death). If Aegon II had died suddenly and unexpectedly before one faction could win a decisive victor in the field ... then Aegon III's coronation could have indeed been some kind of compromise offered to the Blacks to make a peace. Aegon III would have been the last male Targaryen alive - something the Greens could live with - while also happening to be Rhaenyra's sole surviving son and heir. But that's not the setting we get. We get a setting where Aegon II is blatantly and openly murdered to crown the son of Rhaenyra after the last Green army has been crushed in the field and the Green side has no viable pretender left anyone would fight for. This setting - as well as the comparable strength of Rhaenyra's cause throughout the war and before - makes the outcome that she is not remembered as a martyr by her descendants is quite odd and not fitting with things.
  19. Sure, he also does that with Illyrio to a point. But the Manderlys were fat when they first showed up in the books. The worldbuilding would have suggested other values there. 10-20 pounds more or less can be the difference between life and death in winter.
  20. My point here wasn't that Rhaenyra won - but that her side/faction, son(s) and stepdaughters did win the war. That is simply expressed by the fact that Aegon III became king in the manner he did (over the dead body of Aegon II!) and that Jaehaera was handed on a silver platter to him. The entire notion the Greens were not done makes little sense. Else Lady Elenda wouldn't have handed Jaehaera to Aegon III, would have refused to consider a marriage between them since that would have been the last her father would have wanted for her - especially after he was murdered by the people who now crowned Aegon III - not to mention that Jaehaera herself would have never wanted to marry the son of the man who was ultimately behind the murder of her twin brother. Desire for peace or not - the Greens were the losing faction agreeing to terms dictated by the victorious faction - the faction who made the new king.
  21. Thinking about slenderness as a (female) beauty ideal in Westeros: That shouldn't have been a thing. It wasn't in the real world middle ages but especially in this fantasy world where winters can and do last years and people starve to death in those winters left and right it actually should be very desirable to prepare yourself for winter by eating enough to have fat stores for winter in your very own body. Also, of course, if you are rich and powerful you would also enjoy and celebrate a plentiful harvest by enjoying as much of the food as you possibly can. A fat lord and a fat king would be a sign that they did their job right. Slender and thin people would show that something was amiss in their lands. In that sense we would have to conclude that the whole Rhaenyra-Alicent jealousy thing there really doesn't make much sense. It is a bad concept that doesn't seem to fit into the world. In context, one would also have to conclude that the contempt the Manderlys face for their fatness in the books really makes no sense. It should be opposite. The other Northmen should be jealous of the Manderlys that White Harbor is so prosperous that its lords have the luxury to grow as fat as they are. That wouldn't be seen as decadence or weakness but success. In the North everybody would eat as much as they can when they can eat. Because winter is coming.
  22. That is certainly true, especially with Helaena. With Rhaenyra the source material isn't that clear about how fat she was as I pointed out - but adult Rhaenyra could easily have be played by a chubbier actress. Emma has a kind of round face so that's not that bad, but she clearly didn't gain any weight during her pregnancies. Also, of course, the whole overindulgence and decadence theme could have been portrayed much better if everybody had just been heavier - especially, of course, Viserys I but also the older Daemon (who is never described physically in his later life, so he could have gained a couple of stones sitting on his ass on Dragonstone all the time) and effectively all the royals and nobles who are not explictly described as a great warriors and/or people who are still young enough to not have enjoyed the great food too much. But something like that goes, of course, way beyond anything Hollywood would ever do.
  23. One part of the war was about whether women should rule, of course, but once it started it was a dynastic succession struggle, not one about a specific succession law but a fight between two competing branches of the house. And Rhaenyra's branch just won. Aegon II being counted as king isn't a victory. He is just like Maegor, a usurper who couldn't establish his own (branch of the) dynasty and was eventually overthrown and replaced by a scion of the branch he tried to supplant.
  24. Aegon III became the ruling monarch, not Jaehaera, so the Blacks won. Period. This was a succession war, after all. If the current war ended with King Tommen marrying Princess Shireen then Tommen would have won, too, as he would continue to rule while Stannis' only heir was reduced to the role of a powerless consort. That war, too, is about who(se line) sits the throne. And whoever does sit there in the end has won ... even if the losing side were to agree to peace terms and marriages. They would still be losers, like the Greens are. It is a joke to frame this as anything but a Black victory when King Aegon II's blatant murder marks the end of the war. The Dance ends with the murder of the king who also happens to be the last male Targaryen of the Green faction. What is Aegon II's murder but the last and final defeat of the Greens? And a great victory for the Blacks, especially Aegon III who is free of his monstrous uncle and proclaimed king thereafter! It is even more emphasized by the murder of Aegon II being triggered by the destruction of the last Green army in the field. Aegon II's murder could have been some Black conspiracy with a peace agreement being made afterwards because there were still Green armies in the field threatening to depose Aegon III again. But as it stands, the Greens are done and the Blacks give the women who wouldn't/couldn't lead armies, anyway, some nice terms to sugar-coat their power grab. If the Greens still had had power at court Rhaenyra's son wouldn't have been crowned. Then it would have been Queen Jaehaera with Aegon the Younger as her prince consort. Aegon III could have been a compromise candidate the Greens were fine with ... if he had been the last Targaryen alive and they had either the option of crowning another Targaryen king or allow some dude with no blood claim at all to try to ascend the throne. But that's clearly not the setting. Aegon II is murdered, a new king is crowned, and the Greens just give up because they lost.
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