PatrickStormborn

He deliberately keeps the events of ADwD and TWoW ambiguous, though, as demonstrated when he doesn't reveal who Jon's parents are.

Ah ok, sorry. I definitely disagree with that assessment, though. Varys and Illyrio seem like they were created because of Aegon rather than the other way around.

Here's an article on the story. The relevant source is in the first paragraph on the second page of the letter. Exactly. I generally like how Martin handles character deaths - with realism, but without gratuitously killing protagonists. That is not suggested in the slightest... I don't know where you got that from. His legitimacy is not called into question and he is still killed by Khal Drogo. Aegon has been in play since he wrote A Clash of Kings, according to Elio (Ran). But there is plenty of foreshadowing even in AGoT. His role has always been extremely different from that of Viserys, in that he is supposed to complicate Dany's invasion.

I can't speak for whatever this show has become, but ASOIAF is certainly a character-driven story, even if the story is an epic tale. When GRRM originally pitched the series he even specified that five characters would not die - Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Bran Stark, and Arya Stark (presumably he meant that they will all survive until the endgame, not "they will all live until the series is complete"; and I would also assume that Sansa got promoted to this level at some point). That may very well have changed, but the structure of the series suggests that the survival of those characters is important. And I have to admit, I really, really, really despise this trend of worshipping TV shows that kill characters seemingly at random. It's not "OMG BRAVE" - it's usually a sign of poor storytelling, bad characterisation and moronic writing. I understand that it's a big reason so many people watch The Walking Dead, for example, but for me it was the reason I eventually quit the show. Particularly because not any character could actually die in TWD (Rick and Carl are pretty much safe for most of the show, for example, unless there are contractual disputes somewhere down the road). The same is true of GoT. Daenerys and Tyrion need to be kept alive until they at least reach Westeros, and then they presumably need to do something in Westeros to justify their journeys. Similarly, Jon Snow needs to remain in the story, otherwise the mystery of his parentage was unneccessary and poor storytelling. The only "perfect" character in this show is Saint Tyrion, who can do nothing wrong apparently.

I think it might be worthwhile if we start a topic about the show as a whole over on the General forum. That way there would be less risk of going off-topic because the thread would be centered around the show as a whole rather than just the individual episodes. It might also be better if we have the threads locked when they hit 400 replies and start a new one.

Season 1 had to follow Ned, Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Catelyn, and even Bran in Winterfell. That is not "two storylines". Jon, Tyrion and Cat all had significant screen time in season 1, even if you consider Ned and Dany to be the main storylines. The show has been progressively getting worse since season 2, even when there were books to follow, so I don't think that excuse is appropriate. And the blame certainly doesn't lie with GRRM - the characters and story are so radically different at this point that him writing an episode would probably be a hindrance.

In the books, yes. If Stannis dies in the books, it will happen after Dany's arrival.

Well I'm sorry but you're very much missing the point. Dany is only important to the story because of her role in Westeros - hence why she has to actually do important things there... And Jon isn't going to stay dead (in the books, at least) anyway, so it's not a good comparison. Jon, Dany, Tyrion and the Stark children are the protagonists of this story, and that means they'll have some kind of role to play in the endgame.

Dany was supposed to invade Westeros in the fourth book (after the five-year gap). But yeah I'm sure all the characters would have been dead by that point, you're right.

You're just showing how little you know about the series. There has been substantial foreshadowing that Daenerys will lead a Dothraki invasion, oppose the Martells, depose Cersei, battle Aegon, face Stannis, and be linked in some way to Euron. In GRRM's original outline, Dany's invasion was given the same attention as the Starks vs Lannisters and the invasion of the Others. Her invasion is going to mean something - it's not a red herring.

In GRRM's original outline of the series, he specified that Arya and her sword Needle would play a significant role beyond the Wall. I don't know what role Sansa could play, but she's currently a very valuable political pawn and could use that to her advantage. Some theories include her providing the Vale's food to soldiers. As for the Night's King, GRRM has indicated that no such character exists in the books, which fits with the general idea that the "Great Other" Mel speaks of is just ficticious and an over-simplification.

There's no way Stannis dies early in TWoW. Dany sees visisions of him in the House of the Undying as part of her "slayer of lies" prophecy, indicating that she will have to face him at some point.

:agree: And it can't be about Drogon being in danger/injured, because her dialogue suggests she had no idea he was injured. So why the hell did she tell him to fly?? Oh yeah, because they needed Dany to run into the Dothraki. Fuck logic.

No I kind of agree with this. But the story he has chosen to tell involves the protagonists (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Arya and presumably Sansa) surviving and playing a role in the endgame.

I'm not going to write a fucking list of every single plot hole in the series. I've done that before and it's exhausting, and D&D apologists just ignore it anyway. If you want to read criticism of the show, go and find it yourself. You don't see how Stannis trying to besiege Winterfell with no food is insulting viewers? Okay, that's absolutely great for you! I'm glad you're happy to watch the show and enjoy it. But please don't spout nonsense about how there aren't plot holes in this show. Because - and I'll repeat this again - Stannis literally tried to besiege a castle... with no food... Do you understand how sieges work? You should, because the show has actually explained that to us a few times. We know that Stannis survived a siege once that lasted around a year, and by that point they were eating rats. So please explain to me why he would try and start a siege with no food. A siege that could potentially last years and yet he could not survive it for more than a few days. Please. Explain it.

No, that isn't all of it - that was my whole point....... And don't be an idiot. There are plenty of TV shows that doesn't insult their viewers every week like this show does. I watch them and I enjoy them. When there are plot holes in any TV show I watch, I fucking point them out and criticise them. This show isn't the only one I criticise.

This isn't The Walking Dead either. Some characters literally can't be killed because the story is about them.

In isolation, the show doesn't make any fucking sense. There's literally no internal consistency. Here's a list literally off the top of my head that shows how fucking stupid the show is: Travelling. There's no consistency or logic here whatsoever. Littlefinger travels from the Vale to Moat Cailin to Winterfell and then to King's Landing, all in six episodes. Mace Tyrell takes five episodes to sail from King's Landing to Braavos. Meanwhile, Jaime only needs two episodes to sail from King's Landing to Dorne. Stannis is informed that the sellswords (which sellswords?) took all his horses. So Melisandre manages to ride out of his camp... on a horse... And conveniently reaches the Wall only a few scenes later. Back to Stannis - he plans to besiege Winterfell... with no food. Lol. Brienne gives up her stupid plan to look out for a candle just at the exact moment that Sansa manages to break out. Ok. Drogon suddenly can't fly? He falls asleep on top of Daenerys? What? Dany tells Drogon they need to go "home"? Honey, you were the one who told him to fly away! Varys pops up in Meereen and manages to walk around safely, right by the Queen's pyramid. Guards, what guards? Everyone trusts Tyrion. Ok. Dany drops her ring to leave a clue... Despite the fact that she's literally right near Drogon's nest anyway, so anyone who came looking for her would notice that. And why the fuck did she not even call Drogon? Does he suddenly not care about her? Ellaria and the Sand Snakes kill Myrcella ... but Trystane - literally the heir to Dorne - is also on the boat, which is literally a few metres away. Should I keep going?

Are we gonna talk about how Balon fucking Greyjoy won the War of Five Kings?

1. What a fucking mess. The characters aren't anything more than caricatures at this point. I was gonna rate it higher just because Cersei's walk was actually quite good... But I honestly can't get past how badly they fucked up Dany's final ADwD chapter. They actually expect us to believe anyone in their right mind would actually follow her? LOL, what a joke. No, the plot holes in this show are GAPING plot holes. As has been pointed out many times.

Yes but in the books Dany specifically put her life in danger in order to save him. It was important because she chose Drogon - and herself - over the Meereenese. "He is fire made flesh ... and so am I."

That's exactly what I mean... The Dany fans who have a problem with Dany being rescued would just not have included the SotH attacking.

What a useless argument, considering that most of us have a problem with the Harpy attack anyway LOL.

Just based on the show: The cheesy arrival of the Sons of the Harpy... who just start killing literally anyone, including Hizdahr? It seems like these people have no allegiance to anyone and are just completely anti-Daenerys. What motivates them? Considering we've spent so long in Meereen, the Sons of the Harpy shouldn't be such a blank enemy. Dany has 8000 Unsullied. Where were they? The Sons of the Harpy had spears - ok, not sure where they came from but ok. Why did no one throw them at Daenerys? That's the worst part: the Sons seem to target literally everyone except Daenerys. But considering they've been characterised as anti-Daenerys, it makes absolutely no sense for them to not just swarm her advisers and throw spears at her. Some of the directional choices during Dany's flight were really bad. We can blame the CGI for this, but there's only really so much they can do. Criticism based on the books: The pit has so much more symbolism and narrative weight in the books. It's such a pivotal moment for Daenerys, when she abandons the Meereenese and takes off her tokar before Drogon arrives. It's crucial because she rejects the Meereenese on her own terms based on her own morals, rather than being forced into it by an ambush. Changing the context of Drogon's arrival also meant that Dany's flight made little sense. Why would she abandon everyone in Daznak's Pit after they just tried to help her? In ADwD it made sense that Dany jumped onto Drogon because she was trying to pull out a spear from his neck/back, and then once she's on his back he starts flying away and she gets caught up in the moment. She does not leave anyone she cares about in immediate danger. Riding Drogon is a moment of pure ecstacy for Daenerys - which is probably the first time we actually read first-hand her experiencing any sort of pleasure in the city (I don't think it's a coincidence that her sex scenes are never delivered first-hand). So it's disappointing that Dany looks peaceful/content/relieved in the show when riding Drogon - I wish she had shown a lot more excitement. Similarly, the camera should have retained its focus on Dany rather than sweeping down to Tyrion et. al. This moment is supposed to be about her rejecting the Meereenese and accepting herself. "He is fire made flesh ... and so am I." It's not about Tyrion or the Sons of the Harpy or anyone else. It's purely about Daenerys. Also it's lame that Dany didn't have to whip Drogon into submission. Had they not included the Harpy ambush they would have had the time, space and money to pull that off, and it would have been so much more tense. So overall I thought it was a fairly good, inoffensive scene, which is all I can expect from GoT these days. But it was a bit illogical in places, the CGI/directional choices looked a bit cheesy (there've been comparisons to the Never Ending Story...), and compared to the books it was extremely disappointing.

Maybe because bitching about the show is actually really entertaining? I mostly skim through the episodes anyway unless there's a scene I want to see adapted, so it's not like I'm losing any time over this. I only watch it because I've read the books and occasionally enjoy moments that are faithful and/or well-writen (unfortunately these have been extremely rare this season). I'm a university student with a lot of free time this month. Sue me. Mad Men is well-written and thematic. I find it much more layered and complex than GoT, which is why I enjoy it. GoT is more comparable to something like Scandal. I never said it was a Mad Men scale. I used both The Sopranos and Mad Men as an example. The point I was trying to make - in response to someone else - is that it's stupid to rate a show in comparison to other shows. I've rated this season against the show itself, which I think is a much better system. So my highest rated episodes were 5.01 and 5.08 (8/10), lowest were 5.06 and 5.09 (1/10), and the rest were around 5-7. For me, 5-7 is average/mostly inoffensive; 8 would be a strong episode with fewer plot-holes and offensive material (i.e. Gilly nearly getting raped with little impact on the plot); and 1, for me, is just when I think the show couldn't get any worse. Yeah same here. And Mad Men was held to such a high standard by reviewers, whilst reviews of GoT are essentially a variation of "lol that was cool".