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Landis's Achievements


Squire (4/8)

  1. Okay cool, well I have the lot in a spreadsheet, so I'll look at them when you are ready!
  2. Lol, I was going even broader actually, not just "Alyssa" and "Alysanne", but additional mutations including "Elissa," "Alicent," "Alyce" and the masculine form "Alester"/"Allister". Helps in the sense of breaking down where spellings originate (i.e., which spellings are Andal, which are First Men, associated religious connotations, and also regionally-specific versions. If that is too broad I can go narrower, but part of the underlying premise of looking at "Alyssa" is breaking the association of that spelling with the uber Andal allegations of the Arryns, who I would argue stole the name from the First Men, along with the Winged Knight (supported by the fact that the only somewhat contemporary spellings for this name construction among actual historical Arryns is the aforementioned "Alester", instead of what should be "Alyster").
  3. @Hippocras Do you have any houses or characters or names that you aren't currently working on, but would like to get to in the future? I can at least pull together whatever I can find that might be of interest based on the method and make some hypotheses based on my own perspectives; you can use those as starting points once you have time, and take or leave what you will?
  4. I mean sure, there’s plenty of different mental illnesses that Cersei appears challenged by throughout. Just saying that if we are looking specifically for characters that might be classified as autistic, Cersei behaves in a lot of ways that very much resemble a high-functioning woman with autism. The level of cognitive dissonance she suffers from over her consistent inability to rationalize gender roles under patriarchy is particularly notable — there are a lot of other women in the series who recognize the imbalance and try to change it, but don’t end up with the disorderly internalized mess that Cersei exhibits where gender is concerned. Her relationship with sex is telltale, her scripting and rehashing behaviours, her failure to consider others when executive planning (which is often the thing that results in her plans not working), substance abuse, internalized belief she is more intelligent than others… There’s a lot of overlapping things with PTSD and OCD tbh, but as so many people have commented elsewhere, “boo hoo Cersei, every other woman has it worse and doesn’t display PTSD symptoms, so she’s clearly got something wrong with her specifically,” and then in come the personality disorder declarations. Which again, fine. But categorizing a character as having a personality disorder only really serves the narrative purpose of allowing readers to write off their interiority as “crazy”, and reduce the character to being important to a story for plot reasons alone, i.e., GRRM created Cersei so she could be a thorn in the side of the “actual” characters in the story, not a character with a story of her own. GRRM strikes me as a more intelligent writer than that, and the decision to give Cersei POV chapters flies in the face of the idea that she is supposed to be a shiny one-dimensional plot device who readers shouldn’t be trying to understand and empathize with. So, in defence of spectrum and/or trauma disorders for Cersei: using these as a frame for reading the character is more interesting and generative, because it allows her to act as a cipher that makes the violence of Westerosi culture (in the sense of physical and social violence) visible to the extent it is hyperrealized through her perspectives and behaviours.
  5. It’s interesting you mention Cersei, because of all the POV characters, I’d argue she’s top of the list.
  6. Payne Peckledon Wydman Outside of Westeros: Loraq of Meereen Purple Emperors of the city of Tiqui Braavosi ships are famed for their purple hulls and sails, which lends Purple Harbour (where only Braavosi ships can dock) its name Tyroshi swordsmen in the Brave Companions use purple, green, and silver dye in their beards Also possibly of interest, houses with indigo: Edgerton Mallister Sloane Whitehill Indigo Emperors of the city of Yin … and burgundy: Langward Parren Redding Redwyne Loraq of Meereen
  7. @Hippocras I’m not convinced that the Darklyns are connected to the Targaryens at all. Velaryons I can see being a thing, and as I’ve stated elsewhere, it’s hardly a stretch to understand that there are Valyrian marriages being made between coastal regions of Westeros and in the Riverlands with what would later become the Free Cities going back hundreds of years before the Targaryens arrive. But for the Darklyns specifically, I guess my sense is that, as petty kings, their main thing is that they try to practice a kind of Third Way politics in order to jockey for position between the major kingdoms in Westeros, but a lot of that is something more likely to be grounded in land-based warrior class politics than trade: the Velaryons and the Celtigars might be wealthy, but they can’t muster the kind of armies the Darklyns need to protect their borders from encroaching land forces of the Hoares, the Storm Kings, or the Arryns. So more than anything, I would argue that the Darklyns are looking at relationships that would preserve their autonomy in that context, and the Targaryens don’t appear to have been really interested in participating in the domestic politics in Westeros on their arrival, despite their dragons—until the Conquest. As far as the name “Darkrobin”: the more likely scenario in my mind seems to be that the Darklyns had marriages of convenience with the Storm Kings of a similar kind to the Blackwoods, but that this broke down during the Century of Blood as the Hoares reasserted Ironborn control through the Riverlands, resulting in the Darklyns pivoting to the Arryns instead, something only further supported by the fact that Robin is more an Andal name than anything else, and is associated with the Arryns’ bird sigil. It is even with the Arryns that we have another attestation of the diminutive name construction we are looking at here, with “Darkrobin” being mirrored in Robert Arryn’s nickname: “Sweetrobin”. Doesn’t it make more sense that a sister, cousin, or aunt of Sharra Arryn was Robin Darklyn’s mother, and had named him after a prominent Robin Arryn of the not-so-distant past (a father, brother, grandfather), but another boy born relatively contemporaneously was given the name Robin in the Arryn clan as well? As a part Arryn, Robin Darklyn gets fostered at the Eyrie, and to differentiate with his cousin Robin Arryn, they call him “Darkrobin” — meaning both the Darklyn Robin, but also the Darklyn born of an Arryn.
  8. I’m struggling to understand why the Darklyns and Mootons, who draw their pride from being First Men petty kings, would consider Valyrianness something that is required to validate one’s right to rule? It strikes me as quite a stretch to suggest that houses like these would say “No, you can’t rule us, we’re more Valyrian than you are” unless you want to make an argument that there is a preexisting culture of divine right around the Valyrian race in Westeros that predates the Targaryens, which I fundamentally disagree with. More than anything else, I would argue that the initial resistance of the Darklyns to the Targaryens is more indicative of there being opposition to Valyrian penetration in the area, and I would argue that the Celtigars are probably the key reason why there was resistance, as it appears they have been attempting to claim the First Men-dominated Crackclaw Point as their own source of income for ages, and meeting with violent resistance for that fact. The Darklyns might be potential competitors with the Celtigars for Crackclaw Point, but I don’t know of anything that would suggest the two houses were friends at all. The Velaryons, on the other hand, appear to have been far more diplomatic as assimilationist in contrast, something that almost certainly aided in their greater stability, wealth, and alliance networks, especially after the Conquest. Please elaborate on why you think Robin Darklyn specifically, about whom we know next to nothing, is the most likely candidate. His only connection to Visenya is that she picked him for the first Kingsguard, and the information we have about him personally is the same we have for Ser Richard Roote, and Sers Gregor and Griffith Goode. Why would Visenya choose Robin Darklyn instead of, say, LC Corlys Velaryon, who would have had both Velaryon and Targaryen blood? Or Ser Humphrey the Mummer, whose mere name implies a pattern of pretending to be a person he isn’t? Or even Ser Addison Hill, a bastard who would conceivably have been blonde through a Lannister connection for House Swyft, and who would increase in importance over the course of his term to eventually replace Corlys as Lord Commander? I guess I am not finding anything in your argument so far that makes this guy stand out as being of any actual importance to Visenya personally for any reason at all, and certainly in contrast to Gargon Qoherys. Like let’s just break it down, Gargon would have had many of the same Valyrian blood purity claims as Corlys; he had an added benefit of being raised in the Targaryen household on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest; his grandfather and predecessor Quenton was, in all likelihood, the person who taught Visenya how to fight (and of all three of the Conquerors, Visenya is the one that is most adept at arms, only further strengthening the likelihood of a personal bond with House Qoherys specifically). If we run on your own theory that Houses Harroway and Towers are branches of House Qoherys, this only strengthens the contention that Visenya is intent on ensuring the melding of the Targaryen line with House Qoherys, and she personally officiates her son’s marriage to Alys Harroway despite knowing it will mean his exile and enduring excommunication by the Faith, and when that doesn’t work, you have suggested that yet another secret Qoherys is brought in so Viserys can father Maegor Towers. And that’s before getting into everything around Rhaena, Lucamore Strong, and Jocelyn Baratheon.
  9. He would become fat and foolish nearer to his death, for sure, but at the time his grandfather came to power at Harrenhal, he was just described as “plump”. I would also caution that F&B has a well-worn habit of using weight as a means of telegraphing judgement of greedy, evil characters (common allegory elsewhere as well). This is true of Maegor to a degree, it’s true of Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, etc. It may be that he was fat his whole life, but I think it’s perfectly within the realm of belief to suggest this is a storytelling device that is exaggerated by the maester for the purposes of moralizing on the gluttony that would ultimately result in his death. Aside from which, I’m not convinced Visenya especially cares whether the father of her son is chiseled. Frankly, I don’t know that there is any evidence she cares much for men at all; her concern, I’d argue, would be more about blood, and it is conceivable that regardless of his appetites (appetites that in this scenario, she may herself have fostered), he was one of the most pure-blooded Valyrian (and possibly Targaryen, via female line) dudes in the realm. Given that we know Visenya is pretty stringent about ensuring the survival of the female bloodline (not just in her own case, but in the case of Rhaena as well)… idk, I think it’s worth keeping the dummy on the list. I also don’t think Visenya would trust *anyone* with that kind of secret to be frank, and nor would Aegon, assuming he was aware of his condition. If we are running with the idea that Maegor and Aenys were not Aegon’s sons, I would say that 100% Visenya and Rhaenys either did that in disguise, or had the men in question murdered immediately. Especially Visenya.
  10. Should also add: Visenya arranged a double marriage between the Blackwoods and the Brackens, both of which were vassals of Harrenhal during the Conquest. Gargon’s famed practice of the lord’s right to the first night might have originated at this time, when he was newly come to his role as Lord of Harrenhal (9 AC). Theoretically, Gargon would have taken the first night of the Bracken husband, and Visenya used this as a means to gauge Gargon’s fertility (we can safely assume, I think, that both of his parents were at the very least Valyrian). The Blackwood woman bore a “Bracken” child, and so she then immediately went about getting herself pregnant via Gargon as well, perhaps disguising herself. This would also provide a lens through which to read the relationships between Maegor and the two Brackens living during his time, at least one of which (Olyvar, perhaps), might have been his half-brother. That both Bracken boys ultimately turned on him would also be conceivable if it was understood that their claim to Stone Hedge had been usurped by Visenya allowing Gargon to father a bastard on their Blackwood mother.
  11. Ooh I’d missed Shiera Crakehall, that’s interesting. I’ve been curious about the -ei suffix in female names as well, as it is very rare, and Crakehall is one of the few houses where we see it show up (Amarei). Interestingly, a number of the ones we know about marry into House Frey: Amarei Crakehall marries Walder Frey as his third wife (when she dies, Walder marries Alyssa Blackwood; when she dies, he marries Sarya Whent — it does seem there is a pattern of Walder marrying a woman from a house, and then one of his sons marrying a woman from that same house, which mimics the situation of Arlan III marrying Rodrick Blackwood’s younger daughter, while his heir married Shiera Blackwood at the same time, suggesting this may actually be an established way of doing things long before Queens Visenya and Alysanne do it, and it adds a seeming indigenous context to what Alysanne Blackwood does with all those Stark veterans in the Riverlands after the Dance as well), and then Winafrei Whent (also a seemingly magic-affiliated house from Harrenhal, especially if we believe the theory of the Stark kids getting their warging via Catelyn instead of Ned) and Carolei Waynwood (who appears almost certainly to be a daughter of Anya Waynwood, herself the apparent granddaughter of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce, and therefore the great granddaughter of Melantha Blackwood), who both marry sons of Amarei and Walder. (Another of their sons marries a Braavosi woman, which is an interesting bit as well). Amarei and Walder’s son Merrett marries Mariya Darry, and their eldest daughter is named Amerei, who also strikes me as interesting for how her story isn’t unlike that of Saera Targaryen; House Blackwood comes up here as well, as House Darry were members of that long-lasting Blackwood-Durrandon alliance before the Conquest which aimed to make Shiera Blackwood the River Queen. The main -ei we know is Cersei, of course, who is certainly interested in magic with Maggy the Frog, but who we might also associate to the arcane through her relationship with Qyburn. Curious about where the name Cersei comes from though The other time we see the -ei suffix is with none other than Shiera Seastar’s mother, Serenei of Lys, who, like her daughter, is also associated with magic. And even here, it’s again tied with the Blackwoods, with Serenei’s daughter being the delight of Bloodraven (maybe the name Shiera is a factor in that obsession).
  12. Viserys II didn’t have a connection to Harrenhal, but he had a connection to a woman accused of leveraging magic for her own ends, Larra Rogare. The same accusations are levelled at Maegor’s mother Visenya, and at least two of his wives (Tyanna and Rhaena). Rhaena is clearly connected to Harrenhal, such that she even has her ashes interred there for some reason (there is a part of me that thinks Jaehaerys’ spiteful ass hosted the Great Council of 101 at Harrenhal just to rub his sister’s face in the passing over of Rhaenys, whose existence was in part orchestrated by Rhaena, who ensured Jocelyn was raised in Kings Landing by Alysanne instead of Storm’s End). Rhaena’s girlfriend Elissa Farman (or at least her boat) ends up in Asshai, and is seen there by Corlys Velaryon. Rhaena herself seems specifically drawn to islands throughout her life, and I don’t think it is a mistake that when she finally decides to move inland, she goes to Harrenhal, which sits across the water from an inland island: the magical Isle of Faces. Aegon IV also has wives accused of being magic doers, as well as his son Bloodraven, and his daughter Shiera (whose name, given to her by her Lyseni mother, is only repeated one other time in the text through Shiera Blackwood, who was the Blackwood heir and Queen Who Never Was of the Riverlands 400 years before the Conquest; Rhaenys Targaryen is a direct descendent of her through the Durrandons, which I would argue is why House Blackwood defends her/Laenor’s claim in 101, and why they so violently put down Borros Baratheon for breaking this centuries-long pact to privilege the Targaryen bond of the Baratheons instead). I’d also note we have Vaegon Targaryen, who goes to the Citadel a few years after his witchy auntie Rhaena dies and becomes an archmaester of the arcane arts (we don’t know what happens to him yet, but in theory he is still alive and kicking after the Dance). We know the current Lord Hightower is currently up in his tower with the witchy Malora, whose younger sister, interestingly, is currently the defacto ruler of Lys, which has on multiple occasions been associated with magic by Westerosi. I guess my position on all of this is more that the misbehaving boys are not so important as the forces that they are messing with. Yes we can run with the assumption that these magical associations are often ways of discrediting women (especially foreign ones), specifically, from engaging in and influencing politics. But there is also a pattern of this esoteric stuff percolating around the Isle of Faces, Harrenhal, and House Blackwood specifically as the Old Gods house in the South (and, theoretically, the major house in the North prior to being banished by the Starks). Oldtown is another key site, as we know they effectively teach magic there, with both Vaegon and Rhaena’s daughter Rhaella/Aerea training as a septa there and maintaining contact with her mother while Rhaena stayed at Harrenhal. We know the God’s Eye has at least three dragon carcasses in it by the end of the Dance (Quicksilver, Vhagar, Caraxes), and we know the triplet of the Trident holds a significant place in Old Gods faith practices, such that a number of First Men houses depict it in one way or another in their house sigils (I don’t think it’s a mistake that Houses Massey and Strong, two houses that fall in this category, are among those allowed to ~procreate with House Targaryen). Addam Velaryon flies to the Isle of Faces to consult the trees before his ultimate death, and his bones are kept safe by House Blackwood in the wake of it, a further highlighting of the connection between House Blackwood and Rhaenys (keeping in mind that, whether true or not, the understanding is that Addam and Alyn are Rhaenys’ grandsons, not Corlys’ sons). and then there is Lys, which has Larra, Serenei, and Shiera Seastar, and may also be either the source of whoever Shiera Blackwood’s mother was, or vice versa, an indication of a woman from a First Man house (Blackwood or Durrandon) marrying in Lys to proliferate the name there. Idk, just some thoughts, but my sense is that both Maegor and Aegon IV were not in reality how they were portrayed in the histories written about them to (above all) validate competing Targaryen claimants and to maintain male only primogeniture. The fact that we have this information about the prophecy is also interesting as an intersection with the magical sphere when we consider that it is the heir that is given the info about the prophecy: we should assume that Visenya knew, and she would have told Maegor. Realizing that Maegor was unable to have kids, she orchestrates his marriage to Rhaena (the direct next in line) and makes Rhaena’s daughters the heirs. Rhaena knows and becomes associated with magic. She tells Alysanne, who flies North to the Wall to check things out. Rhaena’s daughter is made their heir as well, only for Jaehaerys to continually remove her from the succession as his weak first kids are born, increasing tensions. Alysanne and Rhaena get increasingly angry with Jaehaerys as he continually privileges his sons over his daughters, breaking the “rules” of the prophecy (at least as Visenya saw it). Rhaena manages to secure her young half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon’s position at court as a marriage match for Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s oldest son Aegon; their child effectively will unite the Targaryens with two of Westeros’ most magically-significant houses: the Blackwoods and the Durrandons. That kid is Rhaenys, who then rejoins with the main branch of House Velaryon, the most wealthy house, but also specifically to Corlys, who has travelled far and wide throughout the world and been exposed to plenty of magic stuff, including another connection to Rhaena through Elissa Farman (heir girlies having a thing for seafarers is an interesting trend). The main house that we know of being a stronghold for Rhaenys’ subsequent bloodline, House Hightower, continues in the present to be heavily associated with magical research, and also actively trying to regain access to the Iron Throne, again through a woman, Margaery Tyrell, who is deliberately being used as a unifying influence in the same spirit as I expect Rhaena intended Rhaenys to be. Heck, when we look at the many marriages of Maegor and Aegon IV, there is also an argument to be made about many marriages being used as a means of consolidating support — this was certainly the way this worked in various monarchical periods of Iran in particular, and Martin draws quite liberally (if uncritically) from Iranian history and culture for a lot of things related to Valyria, the Targaryens, and the Dothraki; much of R’hollor is drawn from Zoroastrianism as well.
  13. I totally believe that he would have wanted to marry her, but I have never been under any illusions that his “affection” for her was reciprocated in any way. He loves an idea of a woman he has in his head, and her death only allowed him to romanticize this idea to an even greater extent. We know how that has impacted his relationship with Cersei, but had he actually married Lyanna and learned that the version of her and his life with her he had in his head was nothing like reality, I strongly suspect that that would have been far more catastrophic for Lyanna and the Seven Kingdoms during his reign than the effective peace that existed through his marriage to Cersei (despite the violence exerted within that marriage’s confines). It seems to me that the more interesting question to ask would be: given these circumstances, would Lyanna have married Robert, or would Ned have allowed Robert to marry his sister? I know there’s a lot of people on this forum who disagree with me, but I think a lot of Ned and Robert’s friendship, and Ned’s fond memories of Robert that we see in GoT is only actually allowed to exist in that nostalgic realm because Ned was never ultimately put in the position of having to consent to Robert marrying his sister, he was only ever made to consent to fighting and grieving over her loss. Had she survived, in my opinion that marriage pact would have comprehensively destroyed the friendship between Ned and Robert whether Ned agreed to follow through with it or not, and Lyanna would likely face violence and/or death either way. I expect we will get a lot more perspective on all of these things once we learn what happened to Alysanne Blackwood and her four daughters with Cregan Stark, however.
  14. Ooookay, Miss Samantha Tarly's ally block: House Hightower, of course Rhaena Targaryen marries Garmund Hightower, have a bunch of kids; theoretically in case Sam can't get her own kids by Lyonel legitimized Alyn Velaryon & Baela Targaryen Daenaera Velaryon Unclear if this is direct, or just through Rhaena and Baela Torrhen Manderly longstanding supporter of the Velaryons/Princess Rhaenys; longstanding enmity with Peake family, which drove the Manderlys out of the Reach prior to the Conquest Rogare Family Lotho Rogare Torrhen Manderly provides him with a choice to take the black or lose his right hand; decides to lose his right hand Proceeds to go immediately to Oldtown, where he is protected by Lady Sam Theory: Lotho Rogare ends up being married to one of the many women Sam previously suggested as candidates for Aegon; he has at least one daughter, who is then married to a brother of Ronnel Penrose; daughter of Lotho Rogare + brother of Ronnel Penrose = Aelinor Penrose, who is married to Aerys I Targaryen (we've had lots of confusion over how Aelinor could have been Aerys' cousin while not being descended from Elaena Targaryen, and there being a lack of clarity on when/whether there was a match between a Penrose and a Martell daughter of Aerys' aunt Daenerys, and the timelines never match up; this is resolved by Aerys' relation to Aelinor having nothing at all to do with being a Targaryen cousin, instead being a cousin through the fact that his grandmother Larra Rogare was the sister of Aelinor's grandfather, Lotho Rogare) Roggerio Rogare: names his Kings Landing brothel the Mermaid, and then his subsequent ship-bourne brothel the Mermaid's Daughter: potential reference to Manderly patronage, perhaps? (this may be a prelude to a later question about the Manderlys, their relationship to ships like the Merling King, and the evidence of a relationship with Braavos) House Penrose Lucinda Penrose is made Daenaera's lady-in-waiting after she fails to catch Aegon III's eye herself after the dastardly Peakes appear to destroy her candidacy by physically maiming her This appears to have been intended by the alliance as a way to provide Daenaera with support in Kings Landing against the Peakes and their faction It was a miscalculation, however, as Lucinda wanted to marry Aegon for her own purposes, and seemingly gets roped into a plot to murder Aegon III and Daenaera, motivated (on Lucinda's side, at least) as a means of revenge against Daenaera for ~stealing her man Despite participating in an assassination attempt (!!!) against the King, Torrhen Manderly is lenient with Lucinda and doesn't have her killed: like Lotho Rogare, she is allowed to lose a body part (her already-maimed nose, parallel to Lotho losing what is actually his lesser right hand) and become a septa instead of being executed Theoretical marriage of a daughter of Lotho Rogare to a brother of Ronnel Penrose mentioned above Despite Lucinda Penrose trying to murder Daenaera and Aegon III, they inexplicably decide to marry their daughter, Elaena Targaryen, to Ronnel Penrose (possibly Lucinda's nephew?) Elaena is very clearly immersed in Velaryonisms, with her alleged relationship with Alyn (seemingly after Baela dies early, possibly in childbirth?), but the decision to name two of her daughters in reference to Baela and Rhaena's mother and grandmother long after Alyn is dead (Alyn, who wouldn't have had any relationship with either Laena or Jocelyn; it makes no sense for Elaena to refer to them as a way to honour Alyn, who similarly has no way of being the girls' father) Elaena is effectively Daeron II's master of coin through her husband; she is also known to being in direct communication with the Iron Bank later on, which is another possible correlation with the Manderlys, as suggested above It appears to be the result of Elaena's influence in her cousin Daeron II's court that allows for the arrangement of a marriage between Daeron II's son Aerys to her niece, Aelinor Penrose House Penrose is later treated to an apparent extermination campaign during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, with Quentyn Ball killing all the sons of a "Lady Penrose" with the exception of the youngest boy as a favour to Lady Penrose It is unclear who this Lady Penrose is, but I would suggest that the most reasonable one would be Aelinor Penrose's mother (i.e., the daughter of Lotho Rogare) Elaena herself is expected to still be the Lady Penrose at this time, being only 46 years old, and none of her daughters would be old enough in 196 to have had at least three sons Either way, this is an indication that House Penrose is, like Elaena, associated with support of Daeron II instead of Daemon Blackfyre, despite Daemon being Elaena's nephew This also opens up a question about the nature of the relationship between this bloc and Dorne (especially when we consider that Aliandra Martell--grandmother or great aunt of Daeron II's wife Myriah Martell--was rumoured to have had an affair with Alyn Velaryon, and had also married Drazenko Rogare--Lotho and Roggerio's uncle--who was allegedly assassinated by the Faceless Men of Braavos)
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