Landis

I mean sure, there’s plenty of different mental illnesses that Cersei appears challenged by throughout. Just saying that if we are looking specifically for characters that might be classified as autistic, Cersei behaves in a lot of ways that very much resemble a high-functioning woman with autism. The level of cognitive dissonance she suffers from over her consistent inability to rationalize gender roles under patriarchy is particularly notable — there are a lot of other women in the series who recognize the imbalance and try to change it, but don’t end up with the disorderly internalized mess that Cersei exhibits where gender is concerned. Her relationship with sex is telltale, her scripting and rehashing behaviours, her failure to consider others when executive planning (which is often the thing that results in her plans not working), substance abuse, internalized belief she is more intelligent than others… There’s a lot of overlapping things with PTSD and OCD tbh, but as so many people have commented elsewhere, “boo hoo Cersei, every other woman has it worse and doesn’t display PTSD symptoms, so she’s clearly got something wrong with her specifically,” and then in come the personality disorder declarations. Which again, fine. But categorizing a character as having a personality disorder only really serves the narrative purpose of allowing readers to write off their interiority as “crazy”, and reduce the character to being important to a story for plot reasons alone, i.e., GRRM created Cersei so she could be a thorn in the side of the “actual” characters in the story, not a character with a story of her own. GRRM strikes me as a more intelligent writer than that, and the decision to give Cersei POV chapters flies in the face of the idea that she is supposed to be a shiny one-dimensional plot device who readers shouldn’t be trying to understand and empathize with. So, in defence of spectrum and/or trauma disorders for Cersei: using these as a frame for reading the character is more interesting and generative, because it allows her to act as a cipher that makes the violence of Westerosi culture (in the sense of physical and social violence) visible to the extent it is hyperrealized through her perspectives and behaviours.

It’s interesting you mention Cersei, because of all the POV characters, I’d argue she’s top of the list.

Payne Peckledon Wydman Outside of Westeros: Loraq of Meereen Purple Emperors of the city of Tiqui Braavosi ships are famed for their purple hulls and sails, which lends Purple Harbour (where only Braavosi ships can dock) its name Tyroshi swordsmen in the Brave Companions use purple, green, and silver dye in their beards Also possibly of interest, houses with indigo: Edgerton Mallister Sloane Whitehill Indigo Emperors of the city of Yin … and burgundy: Langward Parren Redding Redwyne Loraq of Meereen

@Hippocras I’m not convinced that the Darklyns are connected to the Targaryens at all. Velaryons I can see being a thing, and as I’ve stated elsewhere, it’s hardly a stretch to understand that there are Valyrian marriages being made between coastal regions of Westeros and in the Riverlands with what would later become the Free Cities going back hundreds of years before the Targaryens arrive. But for the Darklyns specifically, I guess my sense is that, as petty kings, their main thing is that they try to practice a kind of Third Way politics in order to jockey for position between the major kingdoms in Westeros, but a lot of that is something more likely to be grounded in land-based warrior class politics than trade: the Velaryons and the Celtigars might be wealthy, but they can’t muster the kind of armies the Darklyns need to protect their borders from encroaching land forces of the Hoares, the Storm Kings, or the Arryns. So more than anything, I would argue that the Darklyns are looking at relationships that would preserve their autonomy in that context, and the Targaryens don’t appear to have been really interested in participating in the domestic politics in Westeros on their arrival, despite their dragons—until the Conquest. As far as the name “Darkrobin”: the more likely scenario in my mind seems to be that the Darklyns had marriages of convenience with the Storm Kings of a similar kind to the Blackwoods, but that this broke down during the Century of Blood as the Hoares reasserted Ironborn control through the Riverlands, resulting in the Darklyns pivoting to the Arryns instead, something only further supported by the fact that Robin is more an Andal name than anything else, and is associated with the Arryns’ bird sigil. It is even with the Arryns that we have another attestation of the diminutive name construction we are looking at here, with “Darkrobin” being mirrored in Robert Arryn’s nickname: “Sweetrobin”. Doesn’t it make more sense that a sister, cousin, or aunt of Sharra Arryn was Robin Darklyn’s mother, and had named him after a prominent Robin Arryn of the not-so-distant past (a father, brother, grandfather), but another boy born relatively contemporaneously was given the name Robin in the Arryn clan as well? As a part Arryn, Robin Darklyn gets fostered at the Eyrie, and to differentiate with his cousin Robin Arryn, they call him “Darkrobin” — meaning both the Darklyn Robin, but also the Darklyn born of an Arryn.

I’m struggling to understand why the Darklyns and Mootons, who draw their pride from being First Men petty kings, would consider Valyrianness something that is required to validate one’s right to rule? It strikes me as quite a stretch to suggest that houses like these would say “No, you can’t rule us, we’re more Valyrian than you are” unless you want to make an argument that there is a preexisting culture of divine right around the Valyrian race in Westeros that predates the Targaryens, which I fundamentally disagree with. More than anything else, I would argue that the initial resistance of the Darklyns to the Targaryens is more indicative of there being opposition to Valyrian penetration in the area, and I would argue that the Celtigars are probably the key reason why there was resistance, as it appears they have been attempting to claim the First Men-dominated Crackclaw Point as their own source of income for ages, and meeting with violent resistance for that fact. The Darklyns might be potential competitors with the Celtigars for Crackclaw Point, but I don’t know of anything that would suggest the two houses were friends at all. The Velaryons, on the other hand, appear to have been far more diplomatic as assimilationist in contrast, something that almost certainly aided in their greater stability, wealth, and alliance networks, especially after the Conquest. Please elaborate on why you think Robin Darklyn specifically, about whom we know next to nothing, is the most likely candidate. His only connection to Visenya is that she picked him for the first Kingsguard, and the information we have about him personally is the same we have for Ser Richard Roote, and Sers Gregor and Griffith Goode. Why would Visenya choose Robin Darklyn instead of, say, LC Corlys Velaryon, who would have had both Velaryon and Targaryen blood? Or Ser Humphrey the Mummer, whose mere name implies a pattern of pretending to be a person he isn’t? Or even Ser Addison Hill, a bastard who would conceivably have been blonde through a Lannister connection for House Swyft, and who would increase in importance over the course of his term to eventually replace Corlys as Lord Commander? I guess I am not finding anything in your argument so far that makes this guy stand out as being of any actual importance to Visenya personally for any reason at all, and certainly in contrast to Gargon Qoherys. Like let’s just break it down, Gargon would have had many of the same Valyrian blood purity claims as Corlys; he had an added benefit of being raised in the Targaryen household on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest; his grandfather and predecessor Quenton was, in all likelihood, the person who taught Visenya how to fight (and of all three of the Conquerors, Visenya is the one that is most adept at arms, only further strengthening the likelihood of a personal bond with House Qoherys specifically). If we run on your own theory that Houses Harroway and Towers are branches of House Qoherys, this only strengthens the contention that Visenya is intent on ensuring the melding of the Targaryen line with House Qoherys, and she personally officiates her son’s marriage to Alys Harroway despite knowing it will mean his exile and enduring excommunication by the Faith, and when that doesn’t work, you have suggested that yet another secret Qoherys is brought in so Viserys can father Maegor Towers. And that’s before getting into everything around Rhaena, Lucamore Strong, and Jocelyn Baratheon.

He would become fat and foolish nearer to his death, for sure, but at the time his grandfather came to power at Harrenhal, he was just described as “plump”. I would also caution that F&B has a well-worn habit of using weight as a means of telegraphing judgement of greedy, evil characters (common allegory elsewhere as well). This is true of Maegor to a degree, it’s true of Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, etc. It may be that he was fat his whole life, but I think it’s perfectly within the realm of belief to suggest this is a storytelling device that is exaggerated by the maester for the purposes of moralizing on the gluttony that would ultimately result in his death. Aside from which, I’m not convinced Visenya especially cares whether the father of her son is chiseled. Frankly, I don’t know that there is any evidence she cares much for men at all; her concern, I’d argue, would be more about blood, and it is conceivable that regardless of his appetites (appetites that in this scenario, she may herself have fostered), he was one of the most pure-blooded Valyrian (and possibly Targaryen, via female line) dudes in the realm. Given that we know Visenya is pretty stringent about ensuring the survival of the female bloodline (not just in her own case, but in the case of Rhaena as well)… idk, I think it’s worth keeping the dummy on the list. I also don’t think Visenya would trust *anyone* with that kind of secret to be frank, and nor would Aegon, assuming he was aware of his condition. If we are running with the idea that Maegor and Aenys were not Aegon’s sons, I would say that 100% Visenya and Rhaenys either did that in disguise, or had the men in question murdered immediately. Especially Visenya.

Should also add: Visenya arranged a double marriage between the Blackwoods and the Brackens, both of which were vassals of Harrenhal during the Conquest. Gargon’s famed practice of the lord’s right to the first night might have originated at this time, when he was newly come to his role as Lord of Harrenhal (9 AC). Theoretically, Gargon would have taken the first night of the Bracken husband, and Visenya used this as a means to gauge Gargon’s fertility (we can safely assume, I think, that both of his parents were at the very least Valyrian). The Blackwood woman bore a “Bracken” child, and so she then immediately went about getting herself pregnant via Gargon as well, perhaps disguising herself. This would also provide a lens through which to read the relationships between Maegor and the two Brackens living during his time, at least one of which (Olyvar, perhaps), might have been his half-brother. That both Bracken boys ultimately turned on him would also be conceivable if it was understood that their claim to Stone Hedge had been usurped by Visenya allowing Gargon to father a bastard on their Blackwood mother.

Gargon Qoherys

Ooh I’d missed Shiera Crakehall, that’s interesting. I’ve been curious about the -ei suffix in female names as well, as it is very rare, and Crakehall is one of the few houses where we see it show up (Amarei). Interestingly, a number of the ones we know about marry into House Frey: Amarei Crakehall marries Walder Frey as his third wife (when she dies, Walder marries Alyssa Blackwood; when she dies, he marries Sarya Whent — it does seem there is a pattern of Walder marrying a woman from a house, and then one of his sons marrying a woman from that same house, which mimics the situation of Arlan III marrying Rodrick Blackwood’s younger daughter, while his heir married Shiera Blackwood at the same time, suggesting this may actually be an established way of doing things long before Queens Visenya and Alysanne do it, and it adds a seeming indigenous context to what Alysanne Blackwood does with all those Stark veterans in the Riverlands after the Dance as well), and then Winafrei Whent (also a seemingly magic-affiliated house from Harrenhal, especially if we believe the theory of the Stark kids getting their warging via Catelyn instead of Ned) and Carolei Waynwood (who appears almost certainly to be a daughter of Anya Waynwood, herself the apparent granddaughter of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce, and therefore the great granddaughter of Melantha Blackwood), who both marry sons of Amarei and Walder. (Another of their sons marries a Braavosi woman, which is an interesting bit as well). Amarei and Walder’s son Merrett marries Mariya Darry, and their eldest daughter is named Amerei, who also strikes me as interesting for how her story isn’t unlike that of Saera Targaryen; House Blackwood comes up here as well, as House Darry were members of that long-lasting Blackwood-Durrandon alliance before the Conquest which aimed to make Shiera Blackwood the River Queen. The main -ei we know is Cersei, of course, who is certainly interested in magic with Maggy the Frog, but who we might also associate to the arcane through her relationship with Qyburn. Curious about where the name Cersei comes from though The other time we see the -ei suffix is with none other than Shiera Seastar’s mother, Serenei of Lys, who, like her daughter, is also associated with magic. And even here, it’s again tied with the Blackwoods, with Serenei’s daughter being the delight of Bloodraven (maybe the name Shiera is a factor in that obsession).

Viserys II didn’t have a connection to Harrenhal, but he had a connection to a woman accused of leveraging magic for her own ends, Larra Rogare. The same accusations are levelled at Maegor’s mother Visenya, and at least two of his wives (Tyanna and Rhaena). Rhaena is clearly connected to Harrenhal, such that she even has her ashes interred there for some reason (there is a part of me that thinks Jaehaerys’ spiteful ass hosted the Great Council of 101 at Harrenhal just to rub his sister’s face in the passing over of Rhaenys, whose existence was in part orchestrated by Rhaena, who ensured Jocelyn was raised in Kings Landing by Alysanne instead of Storm’s End). Rhaena’s girlfriend Elissa Farman (or at least her boat) ends up in Asshai, and is seen there by Corlys Velaryon. Rhaena herself seems specifically drawn to islands throughout her life, and I don’t think it is a mistake that when she finally decides to move inland, she goes to Harrenhal, which sits across the water from an inland island: the magical Isle of Faces. Aegon IV also has wives accused of being magic doers, as well as his son Bloodraven, and his daughter Shiera (whose name, given to her by her Lyseni mother, is only repeated one other time in the text through Shiera Blackwood, who was the Blackwood heir and Queen Who Never Was of the Riverlands 400 years before the Conquest; Rhaenys Targaryen is a direct descendent of her through the Durrandons, which I would argue is why House Blackwood defends her/Laenor’s claim in 101, and why they so violently put down Borros Baratheon for breaking this centuries-long pact to privilege the Targaryen bond of the Baratheons instead). I’d also note we have Vaegon Targaryen, who goes to the Citadel a few years after his witchy auntie Rhaena dies and becomes an archmaester of the arcane arts (we don’t know what happens to him yet, but in theory he is still alive and kicking after the Dance). We know the current Lord Hightower is currently up in his tower with the witchy Malora, whose younger sister, interestingly, is currently the defacto ruler of Lys, which has on multiple occasions been associated with magic by Westerosi. I guess my position on all of this is more that the misbehaving boys are not so important as the forces that they are messing with. Yes we can run with the assumption that these magical associations are often ways of discrediting women (especially foreign ones), specifically, from engaging in and influencing politics. But there is also a pattern of this esoteric stuff percolating around the Isle of Faces, Harrenhal, and House Blackwood specifically as the Old Gods house in the South (and, theoretically, the major house in the North prior to being banished by the Starks). Oldtown is another key site, as we know they effectively teach magic there, with both Vaegon and Rhaena’s daughter Rhaella/Aerea training as a septa there and maintaining contact with her mother while Rhaena stayed at Harrenhal. We know the God’s Eye has at least three dragon carcasses in it by the end of the Dance (Quicksilver, Vhagar, Caraxes), and we know the triplet of the Trident holds a significant place in Old Gods faith practices, such that a number of First Men houses depict it in one way or another in their house sigils (I don’t think it’s a mistake that Houses Massey and Strong, two houses that fall in this category, are among those allowed to ~procreate with House Targaryen). Addam Velaryon flies to the Isle of Faces to consult the trees before his ultimate death, and his bones are kept safe by House Blackwood in the wake of it, a further highlighting of the connection between House Blackwood and Rhaenys (keeping in mind that, whether true or not, the understanding is that Addam and Alyn are Rhaenys’ grandsons, not Corlys’ sons). and then there is Lys, which has Larra, Serenei, and Shiera Seastar, and may also be either the source of whoever Shiera Blackwood’s mother was, or vice versa, an indication of a woman from a First Man house (Blackwood or Durrandon) marrying in Lys to proliferate the name there. Idk, just some thoughts, but my sense is that both Maegor and Aegon IV were not in reality how they were portrayed in the histories written about them to (above all) validate competing Targaryen claimants and to maintain male only primogeniture. The fact that we have this information about the prophecy is also interesting as an intersection with the magical sphere when we consider that it is the heir that is given the info about the prophecy: we should assume that Visenya knew, and she would have told Maegor. Realizing that Maegor was unable to have kids, she orchestrates his marriage to Rhaena (the direct next in line) and makes Rhaena’s daughters the heirs. Rhaena knows and becomes associated with magic. She tells Alysanne, who flies North to the Wall to check things out. Rhaena’s daughter is made their heir as well, only for Jaehaerys to continually remove her from the succession as his weak first kids are born, increasing tensions. Alysanne and Rhaena get increasingly angry with Jaehaerys as he continually privileges his sons over his daughters, breaking the “rules” of the prophecy (at least as Visenya saw it). Rhaena manages to secure her young half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon’s position at court as a marriage match for Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s oldest son Aegon; their child effectively will unite the Targaryens with two of Westeros’ most magically-significant houses: the Blackwoods and the Durrandons. That kid is Rhaenys, who then rejoins with the main branch of House Velaryon, the most wealthy house, but also specifically to Corlys, who has travelled far and wide throughout the world and been exposed to plenty of magic stuff, including another connection to Rhaena through Elissa Farman (heir girlies having a thing for seafarers is an interesting trend). The main house that we know of being a stronghold for Rhaenys’ subsequent bloodline, House Hightower, continues in the present to be heavily associated with magical research, and also actively trying to regain access to the Iron Throne, again through a woman, Margaery Tyrell, who is deliberately being used as a unifying influence in the same spirit as I expect Rhaena intended Rhaenys to be. Heck, when we look at the many marriages of Maegor and Aegon IV, there is also an argument to be made about many marriages being used as a means of consolidating support — this was certainly the way this worked in various monarchical periods of Iran in particular, and Martin draws quite liberally (if uncritically) from Iranian history and culture for a lot of things related to Valyria, the Targaryens, and the Dothraki; much of R’hollor is drawn from Zoroastrianism as well.

I totally believe that he would have wanted to marry her, but I have never been under any illusions that his “affection” for her was reciprocated in any way. He loves an idea of a woman he has in his head, and her death only allowed him to romanticize this idea to an even greater extent. We know how that has impacted his relationship with Cersei, but had he actually married Lyanna and learned that the version of her and his life with her he had in his head was nothing like reality, I strongly suspect that that would have been far more catastrophic for Lyanna and the Seven Kingdoms during his reign than the effective peace that existed through his marriage to Cersei (despite the violence exerted within that marriage’s confines). It seems to me that the more interesting question to ask would be: given these circumstances, would Lyanna have married Robert, or would Ned have allowed Robert to marry his sister? I know there’s a lot of people on this forum who disagree with me, but I think a lot of Ned and Robert’s friendship, and Ned’s fond memories of Robert that we see in GoT is only actually allowed to exist in that nostalgic realm because Ned was never ultimately put in the position of having to consent to Robert marrying his sister, he was only ever made to consent to fighting and grieving over her loss. Had she survived, in my opinion that marriage pact would have comprehensively destroyed the friendship between Ned and Robert whether Ned agreed to follow through with it or not, and Lyanna would likely face violence and/or death either way. I expect we will get a lot more perspective on all of these things once we learn what happened to Alysanne Blackwood and her four daughters with Cregan Stark, however.

Ooookay, Miss Samantha Tarly's ally block: House Hightower, of course Rhaena Targaryen marries Garmund Hightower, have a bunch of kids; theoretically in case Sam can't get her own kids by Lyonel legitimized Alyn Velaryon & Baela Targaryen Daenaera Velaryon Unclear if this is direct, or just through Rhaena and Baela Torrhen Manderly longstanding supporter of the Velaryons/Princess Rhaenys; longstanding enmity with Peake family, which drove the Manderlys out of the Reach prior to the Conquest Rogare Family Lotho Rogare Torrhen Manderly provides him with a choice to take the black or lose his right hand; decides to lose his right hand Proceeds to go immediately to Oldtown, where he is protected by Lady Sam Theory: Lotho Rogare ends up being married to one of the many women Sam previously suggested as candidates for Aegon; he has at least one daughter, who is then married to a brother of Ronnel Penrose; daughter of Lotho Rogare + brother of Ronnel Penrose = Aelinor Penrose, who is married to Aerys I Targaryen (we've had lots of confusion over how Aelinor could have been Aerys' cousin while not being descended from Elaena Targaryen, and there being a lack of clarity on when/whether there was a match between a Penrose and a Martell daughter of Aerys' aunt Daenerys, and the timelines never match up; this is resolved by Aerys' relation to Aelinor having nothing at all to do with being a Targaryen cousin, instead being a cousin through the fact that his grandmother Larra Rogare was the sister of Aelinor's grandfather, Lotho Rogare) Roggerio Rogare: names his Kings Landing brothel the Mermaid, and then his subsequent ship-bourne brothel the Mermaid's Daughter: potential reference to Manderly patronage, perhaps? (this may be a prelude to a later question about the Manderlys, their relationship to ships like the Merling King, and the evidence of a relationship with Braavos) House Penrose Lucinda Penrose is made Daenaera's lady-in-waiting after she fails to catch Aegon III's eye herself after the dastardly Peakes appear to destroy her candidacy by physically maiming her This appears to have been intended by the alliance as a way to provide Daenaera with support in Kings Landing against the Peakes and their faction It was a miscalculation, however, as Lucinda wanted to marry Aegon for her own purposes, and seemingly gets roped into a plot to murder Aegon III and Daenaera, motivated (on Lucinda's side, at least) as a means of revenge against Daenaera for ~stealing her man Despite participating in an assassination attempt (!!!) against the King, Torrhen Manderly is lenient with Lucinda and doesn't have her killed: like Lotho Rogare, she is allowed to lose a body part (her already-maimed nose, parallel to Lotho losing what is actually his lesser right hand) and become a septa instead of being executed Theoretical marriage of a daughter of Lotho Rogare to a brother of Ronnel Penrose mentioned above Despite Lucinda Penrose trying to murder Daenaera and Aegon III, they inexplicably decide to marry their daughter, Elaena Targaryen, to Ronnel Penrose (possibly Lucinda's nephew?) Elaena is very clearly immersed in Velaryonisms, with her alleged relationship with Alyn (seemingly after Baela dies early, possibly in childbirth?), but the decision to name two of her daughters in reference to Baela and Rhaena's mother and grandmother long after Alyn is dead (Alyn, who wouldn't have had any relationship with either Laena or Jocelyn; it makes no sense for Elaena to refer to them as a way to honour Alyn, who similarly has no way of being the girls' father) Elaena is effectively Daeron II's master of coin through her husband; she is also known to being in direct communication with the Iron Bank later on, which is another possible correlation with the Manderlys, as suggested above It appears to be the result of Elaena's influence in her cousin Daeron II's court that allows for the arrangement of a marriage between Daeron II's son Aerys to her niece, Aelinor Penrose House Penrose is later treated to an apparent extermination campaign during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, with Quentyn Ball killing all the sons of a "Lady Penrose" with the exception of the youngest boy as a favour to Lady Penrose It is unclear who this Lady Penrose is, but I would suggest that the most reasonable one would be Aelinor Penrose's mother (i.e., the daughter of Lotho Rogare) Elaena herself is expected to still be the Lady Penrose at this time, being only 46 years old, and none of her daughters would be old enough in 196 to have had at least three sons Either way, this is an indication that House Penrose is, like Elaena, associated with support of Daeron II instead of Daemon Blackfyre, despite Daemon being Elaena's nephew This also opens up a question about the nature of the relationship between this bloc and Dorne (especially when we consider that Aliandra Martell--grandmother or great aunt of Daeron II's wife Myriah Martell--was rumoured to have had an affair with Alyn Velaryon, and had also married Drazenko Rogare--Lotho and Roggerio's uncle--who was allegedly assassinated by the Faceless Men of Braavos)

FYI, Ellyn is actually (in my opinion) a name that was selected by her mother, Elenda Caron, in honour of Ellyn Caron, who was the head of House Caron during Aenys I's reign and participated in Marcher battles against the Vulture King. While it is possible that Ellyn Baratheon passed the name on in her own line as well, I would say it is far more likely that this name becomes popular within the Caron clan specifically, and gets given to Ellyn Reyne by a Caron mother (her exploits are far more alike to Ellyn Caron than what we know of Ellyn Baratheon thus far anyway). A Caron-Reyne match would be a good one as well, with Caron calling itself the oldest of all the marcher lords, and both being established First Men houses. That said, it would just as easily be the influence of a Beesbury mother, as the first Ellyn, Ellyn Ever Sweet, a mythical daughter of Garth Greenhand, is touted as the founder of House Beesbury (which itself might be seen as having connections to the Carons, based on sigil colours *insert joke about the birds and the bees here*). House Caron seems the most likely source to me for Ellyn Reyne specifically though, given that the notable Ellyn is much more recent. I think we would want to wait until we learn more about Ellyn Baratheon and her deeds (and whether they are considered worthy of commemoration by later members of House Baratheon or whoever she marries into--if girly turns out like Cassandra, I don't see her descendants wanting to draw attention to her as an ancestor). Editing because I've thought a bit more about the potential Beesbury connection for Ellyn Reyne... House Beesbury is probably pissed with the Lannisters after the Dance because of the murder of Lyman and the Lannisters taking over his office on the Small Council as a result. A marriage alliance with House Reyne would make sense in that context. The pettiness of Ellyn Reyne naming all her kids after Lannisters out of spite is something that might be repeated more recently in the form of Beony Beesbury, who is married off to Raymund Frey (who killed Catelyn Stark). Beony and Raymund name their first kid after Robert Baratheon (ironically also the name of Ellyn's father, so the head of House Reyne who theoretically married a Beesbury), and their second daughter is named after Cersei (Freys have a habit of lickspittlery in this regard), but their two most recent kids, both seemingly born after the alliance with the Lannisters, are named for Tywin and Jaime as well. This would of course be a continuation of the ways Freys pick names, but there is a bit of petty poetic justice if the Beesburys still have this longstanding grudge against the Lannisters that is exacerbated by being pissed over the elimination of Ellyn and House Reyne. You can imagine Beony sitting there smugly as she thinks of the Lannisters learning that there are Freys named in their dubious honour, just as Ellyn Reyne did.

Extremely common for women to name children born out of wedlock in reference to the child's father as well, precisely because they know the kid won't be allowed to bear their father's family name. This could also be done to imply a connection that doesn't exist of course, but many of the examples GRRM provides follow a similar pattern. You also have Elenda Caron spiting Borros Baratheon after his death by naming his posthumous son after her father Royce, instead of after Aegon II as Borros had intended, which over all includes a number of conflicting ways Westerosi name their children: repeating familial names, naming in honour of immediate family, naming in honour of patrons. It isn't always about a blood connection, though in Borros' case, there was the expectation that one of his daughters would be having Targaryen children through marriage; perhaps inadvertently, Elenda Caron's decision to name her son in the tradition of her own house ends up highlighting the breakdown of the Baratheon-Targaryen marriage pact for her daughters, which would otherwise have been represented by the reciprocal trading of name ownership: it would have been exceedingly arrogant and presumptuous for Borros (even with his distant Targaryen connections) to name his heir Aegon if the families were not bound by blood. It's not an exact science (shout out to the Freys!), but as Hippocras has quite correctly stated on multiple occasions, it can be a cue to pay closer attention to particular individuals and try to flesh out the context with what details can be identified, with attention to heritability of female given names being especially encouraged when you are looking at patriarchal societies where women are otherwise excluded from the historical record because their roles and duties are not considered significant enough to require notation. Frequently, the only avenue ambitious or self-determinate women in such circumstances have to write their existence and identities into the record is through the names of the children they bear to notable men, with naming rights for female children (and sometimes later sons) being the most likely to bear the mother's signature, as they are the least likely to inherit the father's titles and holdings (i.e., they are the least important), and will never (or rarely) be allowed to inherit the titles/holdings of the maternal line. It is frequently a very conscious and deliberate thing, actually, and a practice that GRRM would be personally familiar with in more recent iterations, as it remained a pretty common practice for Baby Boomers and older Gen X when naming their Millennial kids in North America, while younger Gen X and Millennials seem to be breaking those patterns with heavy influence of names drawn from popular culture due to the influences of social liberalism.

Torreo Haen = son of Saera Targaryen that looked like a young Jaehaerys, pressed his claim at the Great Council of 101 AC Rises into the power vacuum left by the Rogares in Lys (who I'd suggest might be descended from dragonlords from Valyria, but aren't Targaryens) with the support of his mother and other members of the Old Blood in Volantis, particularly members of the elephant faction (one of Torreo's half brothers through Saera appears to be son of a Volantene triarch of the elephant faction), who, after going along with the tiger strategy to conquer the Disputed Lands at the end of the prior century (it is when this plan failed in 96 AC that Saera, in infamy, left Lys for Volantis as the Triarchy/Kingdom of the Three Daughters was formed in opposition to Volantene imperialism), are now wanting to control Lys economically, instead; Torreo's rise is sponsored so that he can facilitate this relationship. It stands to reason that Torreo's rise would not be looked on favourably by the Lyseni if they recognized that he was being backed by Saera and Volantis, but the fact that he, his brothers, his wife, all of his children (all daughters), and all followers were wiped out is not at all the Lyseni way of dealing with that kind of thing: they would sooner just remove the man from his position and sell all those people into slavery. Destroying the entire family line and household instead of trying to turn a profit from it strongly suggests that this was about eliminating a bloodline, and the only parties in the region that care more about blood than money are the Old Blood in Volantis and the Westerosi nobility. This said, the Targaryens are only actually a threat in Westeros; the Old Blood in Volantis is extremely likely to be both more ~purely Valyrian, and also less inbred than what is true of the Targaryens by 135 AC, and it stands to reason that many of the Old Blood would poo poo the Targaryens anyway, as they were likely lesser dragonlords than many of the families in Volantis may have been before the Doom (whatever "lesser dragonlord" means; fewer dragons? less money? by 135 AC it doesn't matter--the Targaryens no longer have dragons, and they are effectively bankrupt, while Volantis nobility are swimming in wealth, regardless of their lack of lizards). So yes, I would say that the most likely candidates for having assassinated Torreo, Myrmadora, and the entire Haen family would be one of the factions in Westeros. Myrmadora and all of her sisters were great grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, putting them as close generationally to the Old King as Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, and Aegon III and Viserys II, which would make Myrmadora indisputably the best candidate for Aegon III's hand if passing over Baela and Rhaena. So long as they continued to flourish in Lys, and especially with the relationship to Volantis (in certain Westerosi minds, gods forbid the Haen daughters were wed to sons of Saera's son by the Volantene triarch), they would remain contenders for the Throne, or contenders to marry into it, and with Westeros already reeling from the impact of the Lysene Spring, I imagine there would be many seeking to eliminate any possibility of Lyseni returning to power positions in Westeros. Narratively, this ties off one of the (at least) three loose ends where Saera's bastards are concerned. What it also does is provides another source of conflict between Volantis and Westeros, which has popped up a couple of times, with Westeros seemingly stepping in to assist Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, and Pentos on a number of occasions in their struggles against Volantene expansionism. If we consider that at the time of his and his family's assassination, Torreo Haen was the son and half-brother of two significant members of the ruling Old Blood establishment in Volantis, that could easily be read by Volantis as a significant escalation of tensions in their relationship with Westeros and its nobility. Suddenly, you have Westeros willing to wipe out an entire bloodline? That's a major existential threat if you're one of these houses who have carefully cultivated their blood purity for generations since the Doom. So yeah, you have a few stories colliding here: conflicts over Targaryen exceptionalism (prompted by the conquest) in Westeros (which is now spilling out beyond Westerosi borders), debates over Lyseni self-determination (insofar as a slaving society can be self-determined), and existential threats to the imperial colonialism of Volantis and its Valyrian exceptionalism.

Dynamic in what way, though? What motivates the changes you see her as experiencing in the story?

I don't know that it's productive to go through it all knowing now that I clearly read way too much into what was being done in a literary sense

Nope, you both understood me correctly, I have always 100% understood that scene in the books as having been a rape scene, with the subsequent scene in the White Sword Tower underlining this by highlighting that Jaime was the only one of the pair that had control over rules of consent in their relationship. Cersei attempts to force herself on him in that scene and he refuses just as she had refused him in the Sept, a parallel that she herself vocalizes. GRRM describes her as being upset, fearful, and then angry at this realization. I read this as her attempting to retroactively rationalize what had happened as just being rough sex, only to confirm that no, this was Jaime introducing a new willingness to dominate her physically into their relationship which she would no longer have any right to control. I read that new dynamic as contributing significantly to her subsequent mental collapse and increasingly desperate attempts to remain in control of everything around her, something that gets further heightened when Tywin is murdered by Tyrion. This shift with Jaime has the larger impact though, because he is the only person she seems to have genuinely trusted, and so she spends much of Feast (when we first get her POV), traumatically trying to maintain the illusion of this rosier version of reality, in direct contrast to everything that is actually happening. Certainly, we can try to run with the idea that she's just lost it after her son and father get killed, but so much of her interior monologues and external behaviours revolve around patterns of sexuality and sexual violence that are textbook for a person trying to process a sexual assault. Reading the scenes with Jaime in Storm of Swords as indicating that Cersei understood what happened in the Sept as nonconsensual, everything in Feast actually only served to further confirm that in ways that were surprisingly specific, and very well-done. Evidently I'll have to reread and try to figure out what the rest of you seem to find so interesting about GRRM's depiction of this character despite and in spite of your dislike of her.

Geeeeeez, appreciate that share, Alester Florent! RIP me for giving him far more credit than deserved where this character is concerned, evidently.

That being said, I do get the sense that violence against a person or group on religious grounds is seen as something that is a no-no in Westeros, which is ultimately why there continues to be a measure of religious diversity, and why families like the Blackwoods and Manderlys continue to practices their respective religions despite those most popular in the regions they have been transplanted to. Damaging weirwood trees or Septs is consistently shown in a negative light, even by those of the opposite religion, and I seem to recall it being mentioned on a few occasions that the Iron Islanders refusal to recognize the religious freedoms of Westerosi as being a big motivating factor for why the Westerosi really dislike them. Similarly, when the Targaryens arrive, their efforts to impose religious sanctions against the Faith in particular are strongly rebuffed, and both Visenya and Alysanne appeared to spend a fair bit of time working to resolve religious tensions between followers of the Old and New Gods as well. In Essos there appear to be a lot of anxieties around religion as well, resulting in sometimes uneasy peaces between groups and cities. The Dothraki's consistent pattern of desecrating the religious sites of others and stealing of their religious artifacts is universally hated in both Westeros and Essos, and it is ultimately a big factor in Drogo's death as well. Melisandre wins very few friends and many enemies with her Red evangelism, while Thoros, professed of the same religion, is generally left well enough alone. Similarly, while the Faith Militant has its populist appeals in the South, one has to imagine that its resurgence would be viewed far less positively by the peasantry in the North (and certainly, none of the nobles, regardless of religion, would be delighted by their own power being undermined). So, like a lot of the crimes on your list, there are varied applications of this in the societies, but as a general rule, there appears to be a cleaving towards religious tolerance in both Westeros and Essos (however uncomfortable that sometimes is), with religious intolerance frequently resulting in social and civilizational ostracism.

Happy to do a close reading, if that is something you are interested in. Otherwise, I'll lay off and let you be.

I think the critique a number of folks in this thread have made about there being few similarities between the characters is fair, and it does definitely appear to be the case that the person who made this video is referring to the show, specifically. As an aside, I would also note that I'm not sure there is really a double standard between these two characters, as I've actually seen quite a lot of Cat hate from fans who love the Starks, love Jon, love Tyrion, love Ned, love Robb, etc. More often, what I would say is that characters like Cat and Sansa in particular, both among book and show-only fandoms, have served as focal points for double standards between female and male characters, with these two often being useful in revealing audience biases against female characters specifically. I would personally say that Cersei gets read in very biased ways as well, but because audiences tend to read her as having more agency than Cat and Sansa (like Arya or Dany, for example), the biases often don't get recognized as been necessarily negative in character: while Cat and Sansa are often read as "divisive" characters in terms of their morality, or get read as pathetic for their "weakness"/"incompetence"/"emotionality", there tends to be a very broad agreement by all parties that Cersei is not a morally-pure character, and so "liking" her as a character is often about embracing or celebrating that lack of morality (whether real or perceived) for its own sake. Bluntly, a lot of people "like" Cersei precisely because she is "evil". As far as this specific video is concerned, I feel like she is working with some relatively superficial characterizations here, and a lot of that does come down to the fact that the show is the text being used for analysis here (and even then, I would say that if you wanted to compare and contrast the two characters, there are ways to to that at length that would be more conducive to proving the point than what is done here). This being said, she is correct in identifying the similarity between the two in that they both share the "role" of being mothers to aristocratic children. In fact, there is a really great scene in book two where Catelyn prays to the Mother for Cersei, thinking on the many similar struggles they have in this particular regard: she has a very hard time identifying anything to empathize with Cersei on, but on this, she feels that they share something. I don't think I agree with the idea of comparing them as characters, though, this being said. On the contrary, I think GRRM uses them as foils of each other, with the specific intent of not allowing readers to reduce characters to their roles or stations. It's like "Here, look at these two mothers, and recognize that 'being a mom' manifests different behaviours in different individuals and circumstances. There are some similarities, but different people with engage with that role in different ways." This provides a further opportunity to use them as ways to mirror GRRM's use of Ned and Robert as foils of each other, two men of similar age, raised by the same man, but nonetheless turning out to be very different people, and treating their wives and children in very different ways. Where GRRM attempts to navigate similarity of character (in my opinion) for Cat and Cersei is through Sansa and Arya, respectively, with Sansa reflecting Cat's version of femininity that is often manifested through religiosity, while Arya's relationship with this traditional femininity is much more similar to the lack of comfort Cersei feels with imposed gender roles. Margaery appears to be more of a balance between Cat and Cersei, with the show version being particularly pointed in drawing those connections. So yeah, tldr; fans treat both Catelyn and Cersei with double standards, but personally, I have rarely seen this articulated as having anything to do with how they relate to their children. Instead, fans treat them with double standards where morality and competency are concerned, with Cat being hated for both rare instances of deviancy from her role as a woman, and for upholding the expectations of that role, causing male characters to "look bad", while Cersei's deviancy is more treated as an opportunity to "love to hate", with her status as a "failed" or "failing" woman being part of what many people find appealing about her character (despite the rationale for this appeal often being negative). Personally, I am more interested in feminist and postcolonial perspectives on the two characters, which are rarely forthcoming, and even more rarely considered acceptable by general audiences who seem much more comfortable reifying many of the misogynist tropes GRRM actually seems to be working to subvert, but that's just me.

I'm not sure why you would privilege a scene from another character's perspective as a way to divine Cersei's internal motivations over the multiple citations boltons are sick provided from Cersei's actual POV, but moving on... You... get that Cersei is being raped in that scene, right..? The show might have changed some things around to make it more unambiguously clear, but this scene and a parallel scene where Jaime refuses Cersei's advances in the White Sword Tower later on set up the complete collapse of Cersei's understanding of her relationship with Jaime, and everything in Feast implies that Jaime raping Cersei is key to her complete divorce from the reality of her circumstances. She literally spends the entire book trying to process it, and the parallels she is forced to draw between Jaime and Robert as a result. Raping Taena Merryweather is a fundamental part of her trying to rationalize why Jaime would have done this to her; she had thought Robert was just a brute, but because Jaime has now raped her as well, she needs to find a reason, because Jaime is the one she constructed in her mind as having loved her genuinely, and never wanting to hurt her. When she feels cold after raping Taena, it is confirmation for her that what Jaime did was just as violent as what Robert had always done, though Robert had also often been drunk; so what does it mean to Cersei to realize that Jaime raped her fully sober? I fully expect all of this to play out more fully in Winds (the extent of the Walk of Shame's impact on Cersei's already very visible sexual trauma in Feast is yet to be established), but for the sake of your present point: Cersei (who Jaime notes beforehand is visibly disheveled in her grief) very clearly did not want to have sex with Jaime next to her son's corpse, she vocally and physically resisted, and at no point indicates having gotten any pleasure from the encounter. On the contrary, accounting for the clear bias in Jaime's perspective, Cersei is visibly traumatized by what has just happened, recoiling from his touch, telling him that he's scaring her, that he has changed, backing away from him, and stressing that she wants him to leave her presence immediately. Reread the entire scene, and if you have the time, reread her chapters in Feast. If you are basing your argument that Cersei doesn't love her children through an interpretation of this scene, you are faaaaar off base. Even ignoring the reality that there are plenty of people who grieve through having sex, with this being particularly the case when you have lost a child or a partner... Jaime is the only one in this scene who might be said to be grieving in this way. Cersei is literally just there, crying, in day-old clothes, her hair and make up not done, weeping over her son's dead body, and on top of it, girl is menstruating as well.

It is strongly implied.

Tywin cancelling Joanna’s plan to marry the twins to Oberyn and Elia because he thought if he married Cersei to Rhaegar, or subsequently to Robert, it would help him pay his debts, despite knowing the Crown itself was obscenely debt-ridden. Oh, and not telling any of his kids about the debt, and letting them rack up further credit charges believing they were rolling in it, the utter fool. God, like betroth them to the Tyrells or Redwynes or Hightowers. It is not that hard.