Woman of War

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Pros

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-Tyrion has finally met up with Dany. Yay? - more in Cons

Cons

-Tyrion might be drinking more than normal but he hasn't shown the audience just how low his self esteem goes. Oh sure he might complain about his family, but his dignity doesn't really begin to desert him the way it does in the books. I can understand why the showmakers chose not to make their Emmy-winner be a 'circus-freak', but that reeks somewhat of cowardice to me. Tyrion is my favorite character, and following him across the narrow sea in the books was a painful experience for me. I found myself embarassed for him, and ashamed of myself for feeling that way. Ultimately I could only appreciate the stark realism of the depths of shame and self-loathing a person is capable of, and the sense of hope that lingers when we know that a person is fundamentally bigger than their shortcomings or, more importantly, those imposed upon them by society. And what about the wit, the sarcasm? How, in any way, was Tyrion and Dany's meeting satisfying? Tyrion basically recited his and Dany's resumes, and then used the drama between Dany and Jorah as a springboard onto her small council. This was not a confluence of personality, rather than a convenient joining of plot devices - a slightly epic job interview. When Dinklage isn't voicing the words of Martin, his lines fall flat - no offense to PD, DBW, or DB, but Martin IS Tyrion. The strength, the frailty, the self-loathing, the escapism, the brilliance, the facade - it's all Martin. Who can capture that better than GRRM himself. I hope the showmakers and Dinklage figure out the magic formula, as they tread new ground.

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I agree very much with that part of your post. While I still think that Dinklage's performance is impressive I would have wanted to see the actor go all the road with Tyrion, it would have been outstanding. Only they did not let him.

Tyrion changes for about half of ADwD and then by the end of his book is back to his charming and witty self. He's in the dumps while he has nothing to occupy himself with and all the time in the world to self-pity. They went over it in the show, but briefly, since his story is much accelerated anyways. I would've liked a bit more self-exploration than self-pity but we have time for him to discuss these things now that they've got him where he needs to be.

This

For example I, Tyrion being my favorite character, really disliked it when the show thought to keep Tyrion digestible by leaving out the hatefuck in Selhorys. They avoided the complex richness of that character, an annoying omission since with Dinklage they have an actor who would have given us an even more differenciated and compelling Tyrion, for viewers who do not think in terms of black and white but appreciate nuances and development over being judgemental. The show could have made the character even more fascinating if they had only let the actor go there.

But in hindsight they would have have created the next shitstorm instead of a quality debate. That is what you get if you dare leaving trodden paths with characters. Grey is invisible to most viewers.

Just because it looks a bad plot to you doesn't mean the plot is bad. I liked it. Many other like it. It serves a lot for Tyrion's development as a character and helped him to understand himself and rise himself fro the bottom he got himself into it. And even when it could have had messy elements, it's definitely better than Jorah and Tyrion's amazing bro-urney. "Look, Dany! I'm the gift to save you from your stupidity!". It's not my fault that D&D and his apologists have zero idea of what themes are and how they work.

I may not be as concentrated on Griff as you are, but I loved the whole magical mystery Rhoyne travel with all those hints and the people on the boat were hugely interesting apart from enriching the plot.

But I am a D&D apologist and I understand that something had to go if they want to finish in seven series. And vote among 100 readers and you will get 110 opinions which part that should have been.

Dp pestilence, sorry

Shireen will not be who she is without Stannis.

You are of course right, at least she would not yet be ready. But she has potential.

I would not want any of the very young characters as ruler, even the best would be puppets to others' games There is a reason that people below a certain age cannot become a member of parliament let alone get a job in a government in a democracy.

This topic is discussed along Dany, Robb and Tommen. In real life I would not want any of all those younger characters, Shireen, Myrcella or Sansa, to rule over a kingdom of millions. Now don't tell me that they could not possibly do worse than it is done now....

Martin's books are not an uplifting fairy tale. This is not teenage literature fuelling the dreams of those not yet of age and so far quite powerless to be the hero, to come on top, to identify with those who finally win. Happy ending, next meeting at the train station many years later........

This is literature for grownups.

To be fair, they actually spent a great amount of screen time showing Reek's progression. And Alfie Allen's portrayal of Reek is the best I can ask for.

This

That is simply your characterization. There are plenty of victims in ASOIAF, both male and female. It seems to me that you are claiming that every woman that is not a victim is a violent bitch. I do not see violent bitches here. I see strong women in a world where physical strength still reigns supreme, so they have to be able to physically show strength in order to get ahead. If they choose to forgo the traditional wife and mother roles , they have no other choices in order to get ahead. It's not like they can go to college and then forge their way into business or professional roles. They have very limited choices. They can use their physical beauty and connive their way to the top and be called a whore, or they can be strong and fight and be labeled a violent bitch. Why is it perfectly acceptable for a man to be strong and fight their way to the top, but a woman is a violent bitch if she reaches for more? What other option is there for a woman? Do you expect her to serve tea and lemoncakes and think that a man is going to say, "oh honey, you did such a good job with those lemoncakes and tea, come over here and help me plan my military attack or run my kingdom."

LOL

You have a point here

In our medieval times the only way for intellectually brilliant women was to enter a convent, to learn and to succeed there.

And if you follow their biographies you realize how very limited they were there by the repressive system of thinking, of values and beliefs, in short of reactionary ideology. Always at the brink of being condemned for heresy.

Apart from not being entitled to a sex life.

Elizabeth I and Katharina the Great are exceptions who either had no male claimant to fear or got rid of them, Hildegard von Bingen was a genius, intellectually far above even any reasonably intelligent and educated noblewoman - and could have been burned for heresy any time. There are those gems in history, probably far more than male history allows us to know about but they owe their fate to lucky coincidences.

And there has been Cat as strong woman who fights for her family and thus indirectly for her House as politician. There is Cersei as counter-example. Her speech to Tommen about what mothers would do for their children was so true and honest from her side. No, I am happy that the show has made this strong woman into a far more differenciated character who offers at least some aspects to relate to.

Why is everyone so against Shireen people being killed? There are even people who will stop watching the show???

This attitude (longing for happy ends) is responsible for so much bad, cliche writing in the world of tv/movies....

As Tyrion would say: if you're longing for happiness and justice, you're watching the wrong show. I wouldn't mind Shireen being burned alive.. (Precisely because she is very lovable, it would be memorable. I don't think it would be inconsistent with Stannis character either. He seems to love his daughter, but not like modern fathers love their daughters. He speaks to her once a month. And he loves his victory also. It wouldn't be bad writing imho if he decides to go along with Melisandres plan).

If someone had written the same about Sansa: "I would not mind Sansa being.......what finally happened" there would have been an outrage from many posters and some mods might have chosen to interpret this as break of whatever rule.

And yet the deed happened.

Will there be the same outrage about Shireen getting burned? Hate for those who predict it? A storm if it happens?

It has not yet happened in the books, just like the rape of Sansa. And : Shireen will definetely be dead after having burned while Sansa still has a story to tell. Death is so very final while life is full of possibilities.

Do not get me wrong: You are entirely entitled to your opinion and your prediction. And I somewhat understand your reasons. Even if Shireen is one of my favorite characters I feel that the showmakers and Martin probably later are entitled to tell us their story. There should not be any special exception and in-story protection law for Shireen because she is my favorite.

And no, I would not stop watching because the series has shown the cruel death of a young girl.

And no, I will not go to the mods because you have predicted or even wanted something horrible to happen.

I would mourn for that admirable young girl who would have made a queen a thousand times better than Stannis. And I would respect the artistic decision of show and Martin maybe later.

What was that thing she grabbed while walking with Ramsay though?

A corkscrew imo.

8/10. Finally it looks like the start of the bigger things happening. Maester Aemon and Ghost are the highlights of the episode.

10!!!

One of the best episodes ever.

I loved how the High Sparrow was portrayed is his dichtonomy between voice of the many and Savonarola going to be Bin Laden. The performance of Jonathan Price was in no way behind Charles Dance and that is a lot imo. And Cersei! The dialogues, the atmosphere, Lena Headey, everything on spot.

Tommen, heartbreaking! The change of the actor was worth it, I guess! The young actor is excellent, so pure and insecure, touching and heartbreaking in being in love and yet showing that he might be the child driven to cruelty by those exploiting him.

And yet - Cersei's monologue about what a mother might do, that was sincere. Indeed no one who has not had children would understand that she might be right here. Would we burn down cities? Maybe. Throughout the series I loved the changes they had done to Cersei, emphazising the love for her children and here all this payed off!

The slave auction was too short. As I have written quite often already I would have loved Tyrion to be taken even lower down. But the victim striking back and yet being perceived as nothing but funny was already quite humiliating. Both Dinklage and Glenn were phantastic, Dinklage as Tyrion acting out and talking too much and Jorah with on the spot minimal acting.

I did not mind Dorne this time. Jaime and Myrcella were just like they had to be: not understanding each other at all. And I loved Jerome Flynn singing. That little game between Bronn and Tyene was actually quite funny and not "gratitious" nudity. Gratitious nudity, gratitious eating, gratitious singing, leave me alone with that word and give me all that delicious gratitiousness! No, it is in no way negative to show a naked body since here it was part of Tyene's game, part of the story.

Daario and Dany are a devillish couple. Emilia Clarke's face showing and hiding disgust was great. Jorah was JORAH, Tyrion was TYRION and FINALLY! FINALLY! Tyrion and Dany met.

That icy Winterfell! Sansa tortured physically and mentally, yet so strong in her despair, the actress is gettting better and better, kudos to Turner! No, this could not go so easily with Reek, he had to regress.

Stannis' story becomes breathtaking to me finally and Shireen's fate now is the story part that touches me most emotionally since my other favorites are safe for many more episodes to come.

Aegon, Gilly and Sam... Egg I dreamt..... That was touching, all of it!

Landy Olenna and Baelish? Why was Olenna so helpless? There will be more I hope.

A truly phantastic episode! Subtle and concentrated. Exquisite light and camera.

I was going to say something about the Tommen situation, but... while the problem of women being raped is big, and people is now -hopefully- aware of it, men and boys being raped is still denied. They are invisible victims because people (well, idiot people) even laugh at them. At least with women, they are given the benefit of the doubt. With men, nope. "You got raped? LOL, you must be gay or something"...........

This

They definitely thought Arianne being "just" a powerful women with zero warrior skills was boring enough to cut her from her own arc and put the Snakes to replace her.

Yes, they cut a "political" woman. But I am more disappointed how they have altered Ellaria as Martin's voice in the books in favor of reason, explaining why revenge above all is the way to disaster. A foreshadowing for any character's arc that is based on revenge, a summary of Martin's approach. Maybe Ellaria will learn the hard way but it won't be the same characterization. Ellaria was one of my heroes in the books.

.......Snip

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Actually in rereading I am still perfectly ok with my four year old post. A personal approach you prefer to see as trolling! Obviously experiences of really existing people have no value for you compared to your fandom enthusiasm.

But why so serious! The whole thing is hilarious. You seem to collect all the old posts by all those who may ever have annoyed you. Do you have some more of what I wrote? I'd be interested in a reread. Actually you must have quite a collection of good reads by now, being the forum NSA or Stasi who only collect the best :D Do you seriously dedicate your time to your personal archive of "I hate it"? Enjoy.

But stop writing nonsense when paraphrasing and interpreting people. I wrote none of those arguments you have invented.

Especially when the strawman is 'critics are calling the victims of sexualized violence weak'... and the forum user linking to said strawman actually seriously used that argument against Sansa when she was in King's Landing.

What are trying to say? What arguments about KL? Some quotes to prove your point? Is Amanda Marcotte a poster here? How would you know, I'd think people don't post under their real names in a forum like that.

I had never heard of this author before I admit, not being a native English speaker. I had to google her name but she seems to be a writer to be taken seriously. And declaring every argument you dislike a strawman is really cheap.

Don't put words into other peoples' mouth.

You do realize we are talking about a fictional rape involving fictional characters in a fictional universe, right? That Iwan Rheon didn't actually forcibly penetrate Sophie Turner on camera? Defending that scene does not make you a "rape apologist".

Here's what a rape apologist does:

"She's lying".

"The way she was dressed, you know she was asking for it."

"She shouldn't have gotten drunk around all those guys."

See the difference?

This. Thank you, Deadlines.

People who are sensitive about fictional characters should be a thousand times more sensitive about real existing living breathing posters and writers and stop insulting them.

Wow, I am frankly shocked to see Amanda Marcotte of all people against the tide of Internet outrage.

Only dead fish swim with the tide ;)

No, seriously, I admire her courage. Only I think her well reasoned opinion is not so unpopular among those who do not spend all day in web debates.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

You maybe should all read this

Okay, here's my other post about Dorne :drool:

I can't believe I'm writing in defense of this mess, but here goes:

I think that both show watchers and book watchers need to have more of an appreciation for how even a basic local television show is produced. The amount of collaboration, coordination, and precise timing of marketing and post-production promotion is key to generating the millions of viewers that HBO gets every week for GoT. Having worked in the field, I can tell you that it ain't no picnic.

GoT got millions of dollars for additional budget of the show, we know that. But all we have seen of Dorne is a few rolling hills and drab scenery. Then we get punk'd reading about how they had enough money to make Areo's sword really intricate and they made a bunch of realistic face masks. Also, Dorne was filmed in Spain......

oh, please don't bash Spain, they are the most enthusiastic fans there in Europe. And I have been to Cordoba, we can be so lucky to have that most beautiful set, thank you to the Spanish responsibles.

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

I can only hope that you are right. But compared to what they did to Ellaria those identical triplets of cliché badasses and their wooden acting are a minor problem.

I loved Ellaria in the books as one of those brilliantly characterized women, the voice of reason. Predicting how wrong all those dreams of revenge and counter-revenge are and how horribly they will turn out to end. (If Revenge is the motive that drives Sansa it is therefore only logical that it had to go very wrong for her, here the show message may be consistent)

But they have destroyed Ellaria as Martin's voice in the show - so far, maybe they have to come back to reasonable Ellaria after she has learned the hard way. I was so happy seeing Indira Varma as Ellaria, i hope they can correct that error in characterization. And that is a huge disappointment to me, compared to what they did with Sansa's story, since with Ellaria the show silenced (so far) Martin's own voice .

The whole story is about how the Seven Kingdoms are falling and heading into chaos. Would you rather Cersei and others just casually mention that Dorne is going to shit too for whatever reason? No, I don't think we have time to read snarky complaints how D&D are stupid for not including the lush and beautiful Water Gardens because they "hate" the books.

Instead of criticizing work that takes years of planning just to get started, how about you compliment them for sacrificing their pride and allowing the show to go through a slight bump in plot, continuity, and pacing so they can focus their attention on making Sansa's very necessary (see a previous post in this thread I made explaining why) "rape" as tasteful as possible.

"necessary" may not be the right choice of words though, maybe "inevitable" within plot logic.

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

Here I really agree with you and, being an artist myself, I'm personally angry about the disrespect towards D&D and the gigantic artistic achievement this show is despite all issues one may have.

People react like disappointed lovers: Over the top hatred instead of critical evaluation.

Here's my attempt to be grown up about Sansa's arc.

I don't get why people think that Sansa getting in a bad situation means that her last scene of season 4 doesn't make sense. Character arcs don't go need to learn something, learn it , win. They usually have characters trying many multiple tactics to get to their goal or even repeating the same mistakes over and over until they succeed. A 2 hour movie will usually 4 or 5 different screw ups by the main character before they finally get on the right track so an 8 season epic fantasy season should have quite a few more than that. In real life most people do continually make the same mistakes, get in the same holes and continue the same habits while somebody completely changing the way they react to situations or changing their world view is usually very difficult once or twice in a decade event and fiction reflects this.

I think the trouble is that people have gotten to respect LF too much. This means that Sansa turning into LF 2.0 is not seen as an obviously bad thing in the way that, say, Arya become no one is. Really all the characters on apprenticeship type arcs are being set up to fail and it is just that some are more obvious than others. We know all the time that no matter how well Dany does with organising Meereen she will be leaving but with Jon we don't realise that being leader of the NW is not his ultimate role until his final chapter. Similarly with Sansa we think she is safe because we have not seen the end of her arc but it may well be that what happens in the show with Ramsey is not dissimilar to what happens with Harry. Being smart at politics doesn't stop someone being sexually naive. Wearing a black dress did not turn a teenage girl into a seductress.

I think the rape is not meant to empower her like in some daft Hollywood film but it will change her. It will stop her trusting LF and make her more self-reliant. Hopefully it will drive a wedge between her and LF that no amount of his smarming on his part will be able to heal (and without any "LF killed your father and tried to kill your brother" info dump). I think the show is revealing that the point of Sansa's character was never to become a player (which sounds pretty disgusting and stupid now we have seen the effects of such game playing on a well loved character rather than just a stand in) but to be someone who decides they don't want to play LF and Varys's game and goes their own way. This ties in with Sophie's comments about Sansa wanting to start a new house, she wants to succeed on her merits and forge her own destiny rather than play the Stark card. There's a good chance that Sansa will become more like Stannis, living by his own moral code and not even trying to play the game, rather than LF. It didn't work for Ned because he was ultra-honourable and politically inept but Sansa is neither of those things.

This episode not only showed what a sham and risk arranged marriages are through Sansa's arc but also in Marg's story. Power through marriage is a great dynastic tool just so long as you are not the one in the marriage pact. Even if she had been married to someone who seemed like Mr Nice Guy she would still have been at risk of the same treatment on her wedding night. I think LF and Lysa and Dany and Drogo are relevant here as to how show Sansa might react. LF was disgusted by Lysa, she demanded sex, and threatened his life if he did not give her what she wanted lets not forget, but he put up with it as he had a plan from the start and was just waiting for an opportunity it push her out the moon door. Dany had no idea what she was doing, she had months of living hell until she learned to please Drogo and had to internalise her need to please him to survive as love. From Sophie's comment about Sansa needing to try and understand Ramsay and how to please him we can see she will probably go down the Dany path at first but we also know (as we have been blatantly told) she has a plan and I expect that part of her to win out by the end of the season even if it is just jumping over the wall with Theon to find Stannis. Whatever happens I bet that show Sansa will never see political marriage as an acceptable tool again.

That Vanity Fair article is disgusting. It is either saying that women who have power and agency don't get raped or that women who are raped no longer have power or agency. Seriously some of the anti-show comments are far more messed up about rape than those trying to work out what it means in the show. Does it mean Sansa is stupid because she should have seen it coming? No because, as I have said above, anyone in that situation, no matter how nice the other party seems, is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them. People worrying about Sansa's arc not working now she has lost her virginity or that she might be pregnant. No one was worried about whether Jeyne might be carrying Ramsay's child as she was being beaten or getting frostbite. Neither Cersei, Dany or Lysa had their marriage prospects dented by being a mother. People might also want to remember that in the original story GRRM planned for Sansa to have Joffery's child so it's not completely against her character.

I also want to point out that it is clear from the leaked story outline that GRRM split a lot of his original characters main into three or four different characters as he expanded the story. It may well have been that the original character to have taken Jeyne Poole's role was Sansa but GRRM in the end decided that he wanted her to spend more time around LF. The original story may well have had a young mother Sansa being raped by evil Jaime and we just read the fractured shards of that story. GRRM is repeating is "the same story told differently" thing on his blog again. I would believe him rather than trying to put words in his mouth.

What a reasonable post, thank you

I as well am annoyed by the Idea that a woman who suffered sexual violence has no story anymore, as if she were worthless now, not only after patriarchial ideology but also as character in literature: now she has no agency anymore, is not empowered enough.

Millions of women have been brutalized in wartime and yet they were the ones to put their shattered world together again. They brought up the children from rape and unwanted marriage and cared for them, they built whole new cities. No, women are so much more than their "lost virginity" (like what? lost wallet?? Their value in the eyes of male ownership?)

9/10

The definitely weak point was Dorne, that is the Sand Snakes who are all alike

Er, they did address all that, in episode 503. Whether you think the explanations make sense or not (I don't, particularly). The Boltons are betraying the Lannisters, so they don't care what they think anymore, and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is automatically invalid because they didn't have sex.

Sansa's marriage is not automatically invalid due to non consummation, at least not in the books, there has to be some legal procedure. But of course the show may have different rules though the outcome will be the same: Either the marriage being invalid in the show is one big red herring or the marriage will end in the books as well.

Actually the proper legal status of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is of no importance simply because might makes right - until by whatever plot turn someone else sets the rules.

And for the story as a whole, for all those conspirators, Sansa and Tyrion being married or not is of no importance at all, they only don't know it yet. The characters only believe in its importance since Sansa is seen as heir. But she isn't. So for whatever power game her marital status is pointless.

And for Sansa's and Tyrion's personal fate it's pointless as well. These two will not live together if they don't want to, married or not. After all Sansa is rich and noble, she won't sink into poverty when she is still alive after all is said and done because she and her husband by law prefer to go separate ways.

Other than not caring at all about Grey Worm and Missandei, and really missing Arya (but I miss Arya in any episode without her), I loved this episode. I thought it was fabulous, probably the best of the season so far and I've enjoyed every episode thus far.

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- The Stone Men fight sequence was fabulous. I knew that Jorah was so lying. Good on the posters who called that Jorah was getting the disease in place of JonCon.

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- As for Dany's "proposal," I don't think we were supposed to think of it as anything other than political and Dany laying down the law. That smile on her face was not a nice one. And Hizdahr looked scared out of his ever-loving mind. She's done playing games. She tried diplomacy. She tried being fair-minded. She tried doing the whole trial by jury. And she was betrayed by those close and trusted to her, and turned on by the people she was trying to help, and then one of her most trusted advisors and friends was killed and another nearly died. She's basically done with this bullshit and she's done with their games. They are going to play by her rules now. She is the mother of dragons. They best be aware of the power she has because she is going to wield it.

Great episode.

:Agree:

I loved the episode.

Only I had, like with many scenes in that series, the feeling of not getting enough. I want more of everything, all feels a little rushed.

But that is because I am one of those who loves Martins travelogues, food, the descriptions of lost cities full of lore and secrets. All that subtle stuff.

We only got a small glimpse at the magical atmosphere, the longing for what is not there anymore within the ruins but those small sketches looked like I had imagined it:

like Angkor Wat and the lost temples around it, hidden in the jungle, surrounded by water. Great.

And Jorah as character became a new quality and intensity by making him recite poetry together with Tyrion. We know from the books that Tyrion is highly educated and loves literature though so far the show did not transfer this sufficiently imo. But Jorah has won a new and unexpected layer that I loved and that made us care even more for him being infected. (Now we can be quite sure that Jon C. Is out) Tyrion seeing the dragon was a benchmark in the series.

I loved the story at the wall, every single character actually but Jon was at his best here. The story is so promising and they gave all the right hints: Oldtown, dragonglass again, Children, books, the last Targaeryen....

And Winterfell was great. I am fed up with those haters who are unable to adapt to changes, insisting on laments about pure doctrine lost. It is a different road than in the books, so what? Why not enjoy the journey?

The acting was great, Turner was spot on. Roose, Ramsay, Reek were exquisite, so much showing instead of telling.

Maybe Brienne should have probed a bit more before trusting that servant but we are supposed to shake our head about Brienne's no subtlety approach, she does it again and again, the anti-Baelish. Wait and see.

If I could remove several storylines from this season, Dorne would be one of them. (The others being Braavos, Tyrion's, and Tommen and Margaery's useless scenes.)

LOL

And what would you leave in???

I love the character of Bronn, him and Lollys were endearing, I would want him to survive.

But of all the characters in danger of getting mutilated, abused, raped, tortured or killed I would weep for Shireen the most.

Where is Cyvasse by the way? The game has become an image for the whole story, a symbol for Tyrion's arc, a proof for Myrcella's cleverness and an important plot tool.

But no Aegon - no Cyvasse ??

I dread even more the fate of Shireen than the fate of Sansa.

Whatever is done to Sansa I am sure she will survive until at least into the last book since her story is not yet over.

Shireen burned by Melisandre, maybe with the support of her own mother, would be, well, dead.

I find this statement strange.

I have a copy of GOT sitting on a shelf not 8 foot away from where I sleep. I bought it back in the late 90s, since then Ive lived in two countries, four cities, gotten married, had two kids, and built a house.

In all of that time there has never been a successful translation of a fantasy/Sci-fi book series that Ive read to television. And I had been reading fantasy/Sci-fi for a decade before I picked up ASOIF. GOT is the most watched show in the world. It has opened up new people to how great fantasy can be. Showing them that its not all about silly men in robes and hats saying made up words and shooting fire-balls from their hands. It can be gripping and just as realistic as any other sort of series.

People now use catch phrases like You know nothing Jon Snow, or Winter is coming, in the same way that they use Luke, I am your father, or Frankly my dear, I dont give a damn. Thats how big an impact the show has had. When Valar morghulis was said at the Emmys no one laughed at the made up language.

The thing is when GOT ends there is a very good chance that fantasy shows will never reach that height again. Im sure that production companies are looking into other series, trying to ride the wave of success, but that sort of thing rarely works.

This is the time for fantasy readers to go out and promote fantasy. Not turn to people and say that youve read the books but dont watch the show because you dont like the direction the story is going. For me its a little like when people spend years following a band, and discard them once they become popular. You never see sports fans discussing how they stopped watching something theyve loved all their lives because a certain rule change just doesnt make sense to them. No, they throw on their teams colours and cheer on the new season.

If people want a story with all the main characters from ASOIF, told in the same sequence as ASOIF, with the same pacing as ASOIF, then read ASOIF. The books are there. They can be read at any time. They arent changing.

But that shouldnt stop people from watching the show. It should be enjoyed for what it is, a great TV show. A promotional vehicle for the genre.

*Sorry rant over, Ill be getting off my soap box and getting my coat :D

I lovelovelove your post.

With small changes this could be my story. I have been reading fantasy for many decades now and never before an adaptation on screen managed to capture me remotely like the books it was based on.

We have LOTR in all its majesty and yet the story with its beauty (and with all this money invested) is less captivating and relatable than GOT.

There may be some not so small points I wished they were realized in a different way and yet.....