kissdbyfire

And just to expand on Jon not trying to explain things to Marsh, Yarwick and others, I don’t agree w/ this notion. Jon meets and has several conversations w/ them several times throughout Dance. Up until the point where he realises it’s pointless. ADwD, Jon XI “The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?” It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.” “Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.” “None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?” Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.” Yet even that did not appease his Lord Steward. “You say these boys will serve as squires. Surely the lord commander does not mean they will be trained at arms?” Jon’s anger flared. “No, my lord, I mean to set them to sewing lacy smallclothes. Of course they shall be trained at arms. They shall also churn butter, hew firewood, muck stables, empty chamber pots, and run messages … and in between they will be drilled with spear and sword and longbow.” Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.” “I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?” “They were. As the lord commander knows.” “Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?” Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.” ADwD, Jon XIII Yarwyck was no more helpful. "If the wildlings at Hardhome need saving, let the wildlings here go save them. Tormund knows the way to Hardhome. To hear him talk, he can save them all himself with his huge member." This was pointless, Jon thought. Pointless, fruitless, hopeless. "Thank you for your counsel, my lords." Satin helped them back into their cloaks. As they walked through the armory, Ghost sniffed at them, his tail upraised and bristling. My brothers. The Night's Watch needed leaders with the wisdom of Maester Aemon, the learning of Samwell Tarly, the courage of Qhorin Halfhand, the stubborn strength of the Old Bear, the compassion of Donal Noye. What it had instead was them.

I couldn’t agree more. And I’ll add that turning one’s back on anyone who is being subjected to this type of horror and abuse is something only the vilest, most self-serving & despicable individuals would do.

Nah, he just misspelled the word by typing B instead of C. Hang on, I’m gonna fix it… Bowen the Cravenheart There, all fixed now. You’re welcome!

I think Craving was referring to Valyria, that the Targs weren’t top dogs there back in the day.

Gotcha. I think it should have been obvious to most, because Jon read the letter in front of everyone. That said, I can see how Bowen wouldn’t see it… not b/c it’s not there, but b/c he’s a coward who is interested in saving his own arse above all else. Yeah, that’s a good point. I’m now curious about this… I would definitely see this type of thing as a huge no-no for obvious reasons, but I’m not sure it falls within the official ‘rule’ of guest right. To be clear, I didn’t mean the Arryn/Ned-Robert scenario was necessarily about guest right, just comparing someone in a position of authority demanding someone else’s be turned over/murdered.

The proof that neither Jon personally nor the Watch in general can fulfill the demands made in the letter is the fact that Theon and fArya aren’t there. And even irt the guests who are there, what would turning guests over to someone making demands mean other than Jon and the Watch don’t observe guest right. It would be like Jon Arryn sending the heads to Ned and Robert to Aerys b/c the latter had demanded their heads. Yes, Ramsay says what he will do, cut out Jon’s heart and eat it. There’s also what he implies when he tells Jon that if he meet his demands, he [Ramsay] will leave Jon and the black crows alone. Not all threats must be spelled out in detail; if I say, ‘do this and I won’t to that’, I’m obviously making a threat.

Because Slynt would be a Tywin puppet who would do anything Tywin told him to do. Can anyone picture brave Janos Slynt saying ‘no’ to anything Tywin required of him? Slynt couldn’t bring himself to go against Tyrion’s orders, and he despised Tyrion.

[Vegan] Pancakes are always always a good idea! And yes, I see what you mean. But maybe there’s something to looking at it the other way about? ETA: as in the other RBG clues tie in w/ the different magical aspects?

Oh I definitely link those w/ magic as well. My point was that the main magical elements in the story also have this RBG link, so to speak.

I think even if he had marched out to meet Ramsay it wouldn’t have been desertion. Quite the opposite, in fact, he would be doing his duty in a manner hat is much more in tune w/ the true purpose of the Watch then if he just sat and waited for Ramsay.

Of course. Because by ‘I won’t trouble you or your black crows’ Ramsay means that he’ll have to ask Jon’s black brothers to please step to the side, I need to cut out your LC’s heart and eat it, and for the black brothers to have to step aside or back or whatever would be so much trouble.

“I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.” It’s easy to see that Ramsay clearly threatens not only Jon but the Watch as well, since it’s literally spelled out. Also it’s not just that Bowen the racist xenophobic moron wanted to side w/ Tywin and get Slynt the treasonous baby killer elected LC thus breaking neutrality in the most stupid way possible… he also plotted to get Jon killed. He’s been trying to get rid of Jon for a long time, because of his personal interests (he believes Tywin/Lannisters/IT will ‘win’) but also because he’s dumb as a bag of dumb rocks. He didn’t succeed before, and he won’t succeed now - but at least now he’ll have to face the consequences of his bigotry and stupidity. Can. Hardly. Wait.

There's also this obvious one: ice/blue fire/red trees/green.

Wholeheartedly agree. Anyway, give me ‘coldheart’ over braindead any day of the week and twice today.

Yeah, didn’t realise it at first. Already edited my reply.

Didn’t realise you had already posted the lunacy in question. It would be more productive to engage in a debate w/ chat gpt.

Exactly. I mean, literally. There was a post in one these hate threads saying exactly that, and if memory serves, by the same poster. Yawn.

What enormous living target? And btw, the ‘official’ story is that the CotF did it to stop the First Men, not the Andals. ‘D by @sweetsunray

You did good. @SeanF & I were more cheekily taking the piss but all items in your list up thread are arguments that I have seen being legitimately put forth. It’s bonkers.

Come on, Sean, that list is a wee bit timid, isn’t it? I mean, the nasty Starks have done and will do many more evil things, and their victims are legion - you left many out! You’ve done better then I could have, but neither one of us can match the true analytic abilities other posters have.

Yes, my friend. They are that amazing! Maybe one day we’ll get there as well.

Thank you so much for sharing your deep insights that draw so much from the text and your flawless analysis based on your unmatched study of the plot and arcs and development of the characters. /s

Is Wayman the love child of Waymar and Wyman?

Yet another thinly veiled hate thread posted, hilarity ensues b/c the ‘arguments’ are grounded on deranged wishful thinking rather than the text. Yawn.

I’m glad to hear it. And fuck cancer.