Devaki Khanna

Queen Elizabeth I of England, the virgin queen, I believe inspired Lysa and Robery Dudley inspired LF. It is rumoured that Robert Dudley and the queen were lovers.

There's a few parallels.

Elizabeth is believed to have dubbed Robert Dudley her "Sweet Robin". Lysa's virginity, or lack thereof was a matter of consideration to interested parties and a secret well hidden, of course the question of if Elizabeth really was a virgin remains a mystery and topic of interest. Elizabeth's fawning over Dudley bares similarities to Lysa's of LF. There were rumours Elizabeth had Dudley's child in secret. Dudley has been often represented as a master courtier and the master schemer of Elizabeth's court. Dudley's first wife died after she fell down a staircase, but it was widely rumoured he pushed her (or more believably had it arranged), much like the moon door.

Elizabeth famously said "Tell the queen of Scots that I am older than she is; and when people arrive at my age, they take all they can get with both hands, and only give with their little finger."

Sansa may yet become queen, a virgin queen very possibly, giving the Sweet Robin reference another angle.

About the Lysa/Elizabeth and LF/Dudley comparisons: The Tullys, like the Tudors, were three in number--Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure versus Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. Of course, unlike Mary, Catelyn had quite a few kids and married young; Lysa was the one who had problems conceiving. And Edward, unlike Edmure, died at the age of fifteen/sixteen.

Again, Lysa, like the older Elizabeth, was very jealous of younger, more beautiful women. She dismissed Lettice Knollys, Dowager Countess of Essex, from court, because Lettice married Robert, whom Elizabeth refused to marry. And Lettice was the older daughter of Catherine, Elizabeth's cousin by her aunt Mary Boleyn. Elizabeth was also known to object to the marriages of her young ladies in waiting to courtiers--she did not welcome Raleigh's marriage. Robert Devereaux, Earl of Essex (Dudley's stepson), of whom Elizabeth was enamored in her later years, had affairs with several ladies in waiting, all of which Elizabeth objected to vociferously.

OK, I haven't read all 44 pages of comments so don't know if anyone has raised the influence of the Dorothy Dunnett historical fiction series about Francis Crawford. And is it just an influence or has GRRM put any actual references/homage in? The main resemblances are: Francis similar to Jaime; title of first book is A Game of Kings; sprawling geographic and cultural scale with FC travelling to many different courts; so many characters that needs a list and maps; the chess theme; the 'will Frances be able to save his illegitimate child?' bit (answer was no he sacrifices him!).... Haven't read it for a long time. There are some similar names Arryn/Arran but that probably reflects GRRM drawing on history not on the DD books.

If I recall Francis's character arc in the Lymond Chronicles--

As a 16-year-old, he is captured by the English, who defeat the Scots in battle and he is seduced by Margaret Douglas. She connives to have him shipped off to the galleys in Marsielles (I think he refuses to participate in one of her schemes--she's shown to be plotting for the Scottish throne on behalf of her husband, the earl of Lennox--or he discovers that someone close to his family has been spying for the English for a number of years). He then escapes and sets up a band of outlaws in support of the Queen Regent of Scotland, Mary de Guise, and the child-queen, Mary of Scotland. He is (inadvertently) responsible for the death of his sister, because he hides a cache of gunpowder in the convent where she is studying. There is a mystery pertaining to his birth, which is revealed right at the end of the last book. And yes, there is a case of incest between brother and sister, which is revealed in The Disorderly Knights.

Actually, it was the Hospitallers who wore black(with white crosses). The Templars wore white with red crosses. They remind me more of the militant groups of the Faith (can't quite remember what they're called atm) than the Watch.

Also, I'm convinced Jaime is at least partly based on Richard I. Spends a lot of time away from home, knighted at a young age, both extremely good with a sword.

Both captured on their way home from war.

Both have dubious relationships - Richard I is rumoured to have at least been bi - with the king of France, which is all fun and games.

And the most obvious link? Richard the Lionheart.

Although Jaime spends so much time away from home and is associated with knighthood and doubtful sexual relationships, I really cannot see him as modelled on Richard I. I see him as a Woodville--perhaps Edward, one of the younger siblings of Elizabeth (Woodville) Grey, who was a bit of a knight errant--he died in Brittany, to prevent its takeover by the French king. Needless to say, he was unsuccessful and died in the attempt. He was also the one in charge of the navy when Edward IV died--when Richard took over as Lord Protector, Edward Woodville commandeered a ship at anchor and fled the country.

Did anyone catch that Lysa Tully's long string of failed pregnancies are similar to Queen Anne of Britian's? The only difference is that Lysa had a child survive longer than a few days.

Queen Anne (Stuart) did give birth to a child who was created Duke of Gloucester, but he was sickly--he had some form of spinal problem and died by the age of 13.

Brienne will probably lead him to the BWB and then her Jaime and Podrick will smash the BWB to bits.

I dont know if Podrick will be freed when Jaime arrives or if they will have to break him out, but once he is out, pod is going to kick some ass.

IF Brienne learned one thing from Jaime, it is that somtimes an Oath needs to be broken.(sword is also named Oathbreaker)

The sword is called OATHKEEPER, not Oathbreaker.

I have really enjoyed going through this entire thread--all 31 pages of it--as I have enjoyed reading the five volumes of this series. I await the publication of the last two volumes with breathless impatience--I want to know what happens next NOW!

While reading the story, I could not help but notice the multiple references to the Wars of the Roses. Of course, the Lannisters are the Lancastrians; the Starks are the Yorks; Ned is Richard, Duke of York/a much more honest and honourable William Hastings; Catelyn is very like Cicely; Robb reminds me of the young Edward IV/Edmund, Earl of Rutland--his military prowess and death at a young age; Jeyne could be Eleanor Talbot/Elizabeth Woodwille, who both came from families that supported the Lancastrian Henry VI; Sansa is Anne of York, who was married to Henry Holland, Earl of Exeter, a Lancastrian supporter, whom she eventually divorced to wed Thomas St Leger, who supported her brothers; the Tyrells reminded me of the Tudors (the roses helped), whereas Margaery with her several husbands reminded me of Margaret Beaufort, who was married at least three or four times and had one son at an early age. However, Dany, when she first appears in the story, bears a stronger resemblance to Margaret Beaufort--her age (13+), the kind of man she marries (a warrior--Edmund Tudor was a soldier twice the age of his wife) and the fact that the marriage was arranged by her brother to win a crown (Henry VI, who was a distant cousin, wanted to bring the two branches of his family together to support him). However, by the time AGoT ends, she is more like the young Elizabeth I, ready and eager to take the throne. And her responses to the men around her are very Elizabethan! Again, note the fact that when Henry VII arrived in England, he carried the Welsh dragon banner--and he claimed descent from King Arthur! When you look at Stannis, he is not just Richard III as described by the historians (Tyrion is Richard III as described by Shakespeare) but also Humphrey Duke of Gloucester, whose wife, Eleanor, was accused of witchcraft and imprisoned on the Isle of Man. Tyrion again, also shows shades of Anthony Woodwille (his love of books) whereas Jaime has the more 'knightly' aspects of the Woodwilles, Anthony and Edward (the latter was a bit of a knight errant!). Cersei reminded me strongly of Margaret of Anjou/Elizabeth Woodwille/Margaret Beaufort, especially in relation to her children/sons. Jon Snow reminded me of John of Gloucester, Richard III's bastard son, who was executed for receiving a letter from Ireland. Robert Baratheon is of course, the older Edward IV.