StannisandDaeny

The visions confused us as well when we first saw them. That's why they're visions. Gives people stuff to think about. Like, what the hell was that?! This 'the tv audience is too dumb to think and doesn't want to think and should have everything spoon-fed to them' attitude isn't really an argument to me. Even if it were so it doesn't change the fact it won't help the quality of your show if you follow that 'rule'.

Why not?

Because the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The Northmen were supposed to come and rescue them, they didn't find out this 500 men army were actually their enemies, yet they resolve to flee all the way to the Wall rather than go 'hey, weren't our allies outside here just a minute ago? Why not find them?' That's some terrible terrible plotdamage.

The implication that Dany will find happiness and home beyond the Wall was also very, very intriguing

If it implied anything, it's that Daeny will die beyond the Wall. That's why he's waiting for her there... Melisandre's speech also pretty much convinced me Stannis is in fact going to become the Night's King. Ugh.

Robb and Talisa scene is pointless they could have had him marry a ham sandwich...

LOL! Just lol. This made my day x')

Ok... *takes a deep breathe*

Bad:

- This episode clearly suffered for having to cramp too much stuff in

- My biggest complaint of all: Ramsay didn't totally betray everyone? The Ironborn burned down Winterfell? Yeah apparently they did, 'cos Luwin didn't say anything about Northerners being guilty. The Northerners are absent for no reason? God damnit that was horrible. One of the best, most desperate and dramatic scenes in the book, totally ruined.

- What happened at Winterfell is PIVOTAL to what happens in the North later 'cos when it is revealed it will bring Ramsay down. Manderly will have no one to tell him of it save the Ironborn who he can't get his hands on, there's tons of Ironborn survivors... Seriously, now what? How is Manderly going to know Bran and Rickon are alive and spare Davos and send Davos on his task? Is he going to capture all the Ironborn? If the Ironborn got away on time and didn't burn Winterfell, how will they be able to tell what happened. See, this is what happens is you don't do things properly, you're just creating a domino effect.

- Luwin's death scene started out perfectly, but ended horribly. It was an emotional build-up, but then it just didn't deliver. Maybe it's the acting, maybe it's the writing, I'm not too sure.

- They'll have a hard time bringing Dagmer back in some role in which he aids Asha and Theon later, which I think he eventually will.

- The scene with Ros and Varys was completely pointless. Guess they needed at least someone to show her boobs if only briefly.

- The writer(s) fucking with us. Shae asking Tyrion to go with her and Jaqen asking Arya to go with him serves no purpose but to make us readers creep to the edge of our seat and go "oh no you won't!"

- Shae gets more irritating with every passing episode.

- I very much grant Jason Momoa his scene and wish all the best for him. His scene was however, quite pointless, and seemed to be written to serve little more purpose than making some fangirls go *squee*

- They're kiling off all of Daeny's handmaidens, presumably to cut costs? All the hottest chicks disappear from the show... noooo!

- The King of Qarth, the richest man in the greatest city to have ever been and that will ever be. Has. No. Guards. You can just barge in there and kill him if you want to. That makes no sense.

- Pyat Pree was beaten far too easily. He was the only warlock apparently, and they didn't even have to burn the HOTU to escape him... LAME. Apparently he has a ton of guys ready to cut the Thirteen's throats, destroy a little Khalasar without casualties and steal dragons, and can survive being run through with a sword, but three small dragons are too much for him and he gets mysteriously killed without any of his weird helpers even remotely near him.

- No cool visions... none at all *sobs*

- The members of Daeny's Khalasar mysteriously revived. Okay then... huzzah!

- Jon's scene with Qorin is TFU. 'Oh, you're the man who killed the Halfhand!' Well, that's not going to win you much respect if the Wildlings had already captured him and could have just slit his throat at any time innit? On top of that no one's going to understand why Qorin did what he did. They tried to make it clear, and failed. Not going to punch the non-readers if they didn't get this, on the contrary.

- In the first episode the wights are running like hell, here they are a bunch of stumbling corpses. I don't mind either portrayal, but it has to be consistent, and it's not.

- Stannis. Stannis. Stannis. Stannis. When I'm not putting exclamation points behind his name, you know something's wrong. I have nothing against Dillane, but what's with that dialogue? You will betray everyone, everyone! Yeah you'll betray everyone! No he won't! What the hell are they setting him up for?

- The Other looks like a Uruk-hai who has spent too much time in the freezer and had no armour. Others are elegant humanoids with cool-looking armour and swords. They have an 'alien' feel to them instead of a 'hideous monster' feel and while I wouldn't call them beautiful they are not as hideous as this thing either. The other completely lacked the 'magical' look Others have. Sorry but the Other looked like a crappy creature from a B horror movie and this is terrible because now this has been established as 'The Look' for the Other there'll be no turning back. No matter how scary he was I feel the strong urge to pull him out of the screen and beat him up, even though it would probably kill me.

- It made no sense that the Other would ignore and thus spare Sam.

Slightly redeeming:

(- Ros has lost some weight again during her time off-screen. Yum!

- Tywin's horse crapping.

- They kept the bald dude as an interesting extra for future Ironborn scenes. Kinda like that guy. He's everything I pictured the Ironborn to be.

- Theon being beat down was funny.

- If anything, the Other did look sufficiently scary, even though everything else about him sucked)

Good:

- The Tyrells are shown to be opportunistic bastards and Margaery as pretty much a whore. I like.

- Tyrion waking up with the smug Pycelle was good. Thank you Peter Dinklage for delivering some quality.

- Arya / Jaqen scene was overall good, in fact I loved that scene. I think they gave people who had been salivating all over him a bit of a scare when the face changed. It sure scared me!

- Petyr's talk with Sansa was good. Makes people again wonder, what's his game, how is he going about things, hey wasn't this guy evil, isn't he going to f- Sansa over...? Just gives a lot to look forward to in general.

- House of the Undying: it looked nice, and that's all I have to say about it.

- Brienne being badass. I kinda felt myself sitting with my legs crossed when she killed that final guy even though I shouldn't have anything to fear (I'm not a rapist or a murderer) but it was still awesome. Show-Brienne is just waaay more confident and badass and this bodes well for future seasons.

Err... Not all lords have sworn to Stannis - if they had, there would be no war.

All the more reason they should have sworn to him, the bastards. Even the most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war, the crime of starting a selfish war does not change the law or grant you legitimacy, on the contrary. The law is there to prevent war, which is the most just cause there is.

But still far fewer suffered than if there would've have been yers of battles as it probably would've gone if Robb would've lived. So Tywin saved thousands lives with Red Wedding and as such, if saving lives is suitable excuse for Stannis, it should be for Tywin, too.

So you're trying to defend the Red Wedding, good luck with that ^^'

You think by putting effin' Ramsay Snow in a position of power in the North is 'saving people'? Another war has already started there because they can't keep their subjects under control, and Tywin knew this. The intent was to have the North exhaust it's strength further from the start. Tywin ordered many senseless massacres for no reason, enough to prove 'preventing more deaths' was never his intent.

The comparison Assasination of Renly - Red Wedding is ridiculous for many reasons:

- Stannis was right in removing the rebel and usurper Renly, who had no cause to declare himself King and willingly go to war to kill his brother Stannis and all of his bannermen, which he would have. This opposed to Tywin who's starting of the war in the Riverlands was a complete and total overreaction. Ned Stark and his men were murdered for doing the right thing: the North was fighting for a just cause, Tywin was not. And neither was Renly.

- The Red Wedding was a complete pointless massacre. Capturing the Starks was a possibility over killing them, which the Red Wedding Alliance ignored out of sheer spite.

- We still don't know for sure if Stannis was certain about what was going on with Renly. The show makes it seem so, the books do not offer certainty.

- Shadow magic is just another tool, it is no different than shoving a sword through someone or marching on a 2000 man army with 20 000 men of your own and 60 000 in reserve. So the argument 'hurr it's disgusting simply because it's magic' does not float. In the way Jaime Lannister would have said it: 'Would you have felt better if he had been killed in battle, rather than through Shadow Magic?'

- Stannis and Robb were both fighting to remove Joffrey and the ridiculous Lannister regime, which, as has been proven, is an extremely crappy regime. They released religious zealots on the land, slaughtered the people of King's Landing in the streets, allowed dwarfs and other people to be killed on the streets, incurred the wrath of the Iron Bank, messed up their alliance with the Tyrells and hold a very weak grip over the Seven Kingdoms, not to mention establishing feuds by crimes such as the Red Wedding that would echo for centuries. Tywin on the other hand was fighting to maintain this regime. In the long run, the victory of Stannis and Robb would have always been better. The North was willing to treat with Renly because he was the most powerful Baratheon at the moment, if Stannis had been holding King's Landing and their enemies lay defeated at their feat, the North would have treated with Stannis as well. Stannis has been shown to be able to listen to good advice. Davos would urge for a treaty, and even Melisandre would, as her POV tells us she is genuinely concerned with stopping the Others, which would be easier if the North and the South stood together.

- If Renly hadn't been destroyed, it would have set an awful precedent for further generations. All rebellions we've heard about were always the cause of the rebels thinking they had some right to the throne, through blood or otherwise, but none were as daring as to simply base it on 'I think I'm great and I have the biggest army.' In the long run, Stannis getting the throne and pointing out the law does matter and those defying the rightful king are doomed to fail (as the superstitious Westerosi would believe) would always win out in the 'preventing war and thus deaths' department, whereas Renly getting on the throne would be an encouragement to anyone to start wars. Why was Renly thinking Dorne, the Vale, the Riverlands... would ever accept him as their King? He would have had to conquer these in bloody campaigns as well.

Robert's line is not secure exactly because he was usurper.

No. Aerys lost his legitimacy as a ruler by senselessly killing off his subjects. Rightful king or not, what Aerys did does not belong to what a king should be allowed to do, on the contrary, it is the King's duty to defend his subjects. His right to rule ended right then and there. That's why the Baratheon claim to the throne is still valid.

I said he got taught the lesson from Davos.I was definitley saying he respected Davos. So much he followed his advice to the wall. Davos knows Stannis about as good as anyone. Who better to judge when he feels like Stannis is going to burn the kid than him. The third death of joffrey happens and three kings have died of which Melisandre foretold. And she is preaching to burn him for his kingsblood and Davos feels Stannis is going to do it and ships him off.

Stannis wasn't going to burn him, in fact the only reason Davos had time to act is because he was opposed to the idea. You think Edric would have lived if Stannis had wanted to burn him? He was véry skeptical on that point and wanted proof the leeches were effective first, and even then you can't say 'he was going to burn him' because he never gave the order. I suppose if we're going to carry this logic we should also lock up everyone who sees a hot girl on the streets and thinks of doing them because hey, they're rapists... They didn't do anything, but they're still rapists, right? After all, you don't have to do something or be certain you're going to do something to be guilty of it...

As for the Azor Ahai bullshit, yeah Stannis is not Azor Ahai. Duh. Doesn't mean he can't kick ass. You think he doesn't know that? The red religion is a means to and end for him, nothing more. It's just a good rallying call, it inspires the troops, and Lightbringer, while not more powerful than another sword, still carries a reputation (see how they melted Ice to have a counterpart to it), so it's just a smart and good move to go along with it even if you don't believe in it. Robb Stark wasn't able to turn into a wolf, but the story still spread fear among his enemies. Garlan Tyrell wasn't the ghost of Renly, but his deception worked as well. It worked, and that's what matters. Ever heard the saying the truth is the first casualty of war? Why do you think Stannnis' few remaining men still follow him with so much conviction? That's where the true power lies.

First you're going to argue Stannis is not a good commander, then you're going to argue he doesn't respect Davos? You're unbelievable. He didn't burn Edric Storm, and he wasn't going to burn Edric Storm either - Melisandre wanted to burn him but Stannis hadn't made a decision in the matter yet. Otherwise he would have long burned before Davos could even get to him. Stannis didn't have Davos locked up or punished for getting Edric Storm out either.

Funny how you chose those words, for the supposed Azor Ahai reborn.

It was intentional.

Now that you mention it, it is kinda similar. Stannis seems to have gained a lot of fans thanks to the Blackwater though - I think viewers right now are more concerned with how interesting a character is rather than purely how good or evil they are by now because they were tricked once into liking Ned Stark and then seeing him die and have come to realize GoT is not so much a case of good or bad. That was quite a hit for many I can imagine. A lot of people like Tywin Lannister as well despite him giving two downright evil orders (though, maybe they just forgot). I do kinda like the theme music and I tend to be positive and attribute it to the music trying to underline Stannis isn't going to f- around and is a force to be reckoned with. Also his scenes usually take place in places that are dark and full of terror - on a boat in the middle of the ocean, in the creepy place Dragonstone is... It's difficult to put in words, but despite the dark atmosphere of the soundtrack I feel it still has something heroic to it.

It's completely the other way around Arbor. He went to the wall first, not to White Harbour or any other castle to ask for their aid. He went to the Wall to aid them, knowing full well the Night's Watch would not enlarge his army. He did not make efforts to contact the Northern lords / hillmen until Jon suggested it to him. In fact it even diminished his chances. For Stannis it is a great sacrifice to go to the Wall - he leaves Dragonstone and Storm's End in a weak state of defence. The other lords do have the resources and men to send people to the Wall, they are not as hard-pressed as Stannis, yet they don't go there. What more do you need than GRRM himself saying it was a righteous move to not see something Stannis did as a completely evil act? Jezus you're biased, really.

I'm skeptical about the Lord of Light as well but like all tools I believe they can be used for good or for bad and like all religions it's never good if you drive it too far. The High Sparrow for example has only caused trouble so far. Stannis however, makes an agreement with non-believers and has both believers as unbelievers in his ranks. This hints he's very much capable of religious tolerance and the Red God's power could definitely be a good thing if used for good as opposed to the Seven who have so far proven useless, if not only because R'hllor seems like a counterpart to the Great Other. Take Moqorro healing Victarion for instance - maybe not such a good thing considering what Victarion did afterwards, but there's always the potential to use this power for good like it was used on Beric. I was very skeptical about Melisandre's intentions for a long time as well but her POV reveals she does genuinely want to use her power stop the Others. Keeping Mance Rayder alive instead of Rattleshirt thanks to the glamour was another good act imo.

Berric and Lady Stoneheart are abominations not unlike a Wight. The "right gun" is Dany's Dragons. Get right with that. The good magic comes from The Children of the Forest. I'll take Bran's magic and Dany's magic over shadow craft anyday. Know that. Conjuring up shadow beasts and using dweomers to shapeshift and make faux lightbringers are weak parlor tricks compared to Dragon fire.

I'm prone to agree on Stoneheart, but she was given life by Beric and not by a Red Priest. Beric did a lot of good, that's why he has the people's support. Dany's dragons are awesome but not as effective a weapon as the Shadows if you look at them from a 'potential innocent victims' and 'control' scale. The Shadows take out 1 target without danger of hitting another, the Dragons go on wild hunts and eat people's cattle and perhaps even children if we can believe the claims of the man in ADWD. They are definitely the most powerful, but a great liability as well and they are only prone to doing good because Dany is prone to doing good. That said I hope the dragons will turn out to be a force for good, I just don't take anything for granted with George.

That wasn't really my point though as Stannis had no access to Dragons, he just picked the religion that had the best results for him and his bannermen so far. The Seven haven't showed any real power yet, but you can bet on it the Lannisters would like the Warrior to strike their enemies down if they believed he could.

I'm very skeptical about the Children of the Forest. I don't think they're as good as they say and I don't think Bran wants to become an abomination like Bloodraven... and I don't think they'll give him a choice.

You'll have to look for that interview yourself as I don't save / remember the location of every single interview GRRM ever did across his wide-spanning career. I'm not going to make something like that up, but if you won't take my word for it then fine.

edit: this one gets close though.

http://asoiaf.wester...ording-to-grrm/

Robert on the other hand, was a quite merry and pleasant fellow. So pleasant, in fact, that he became blind to his enemies, allowed corruption like Janos Slynt's deeds to spread without another word and caused the Kingdom to become bankrupt. I'm sure we need our Kings to be pleasant!

Stannis didn't burn any children. He thought it was a good thing to do for Davos to get Edric to safety and continued to trust and respect Davos' council.

that is a very fair statement since you declared how his plan worked so well not fighting Renly and getting his bannerman. That was step one and the next step ended in epic failure. So clearly his plan didn't work. I mean these are not grey subjects.

Even a good plan sometimes doesn't work because of external factors. Robb Stark had a good plan to lure Tywin towards him and then have Edmure cut off his retreat, but instead Edmure held off Tywin despite his orders and ruined Robb's plan much in the same way Stannis' men also failed him. Does that make Robb Stark an idiot? I don't think so. Nor does it make Stannis an idiot. If he had just sat at his castle, he would have lost. His 20 000 men were worth nothing if he didn't use them and would have left him if he didn't attack King's Landing, and he got very close to achieving his goal. No one could see those 80 000 men coming, and no one would have defeated them if they were in Stannis' stead.

I don't disagree about Ramsey but because others are evil doesn't make Stannis good.

Stannis is only fighting because there are people like Ramsay who would deny him his throne. If they didn't, Stannis could and would rule peacefully and would make a far better King than Robert or Aerys. Or Joffrey. Plus Stannis is the only one who has made an effort to provide defence against the Others who are probably worse than all the human enemies.

It's okay, he started by calling me a prick some posts ago. By now the 'level' of his posts and argumentation has sunk so low that I'm positive he's just trolling and I'm just trying to end the 'conversation'.

He is evil by most every definition, at least in my mind.

And not in mine, or most people. Most people see the Red Wedding Alliance and Ramsay Snow as evil, the exact same people Stannis is fighting. GRRM called Stannis 'perhaps the only true hero of the series.' So we have strong reasons to believe Stannis is a grey character whereas you only have 'hurr I don't like him' going for you.

My previous posts already covered that more than well enough. He had to march those impetuous bastards to King's Landing or lose them. You think they'd follow a King who would choose to just sit on his ass after the glory they'd been promised by Renly? You lose and are clearly too stupid to understand base logic or apply the details in the story to your 'opinions'. Stop trolling.

I'm certain you wouldn't be here moaning about Renly if he had shoved a sword through Stannis (which was his intention) and going all 'uhh he killed his brother he's BAD' so you might as well just shut up.

If you are blind to the reasons behind those actions which I already mentioned and King Stannis' victories which I already summed up, not to mention the fact he's survived a lot of people who you think are somehow more competent than him despite being killed (after all in your view a good king has to be successful at everything and be able to predict everything) then yes, you're the only one who thinks so. Not to mention you don't get what these books are about if you want to think in purely black and white terms such as good and evil so badly. I've already mentioned all these reasons and totally owned you in previous posts, I'm not going to start this over from the start again. Seriously, your argumentation is so weak to the point it seems you're simply trying to troll people. If you're hoping Stannis will die so that the Red Wedding Alliance and Ramsay Snow will rule 'happily' ever after, you really don't have a case for calling anyone evil. In fact, that makes you evil.

'War and self defense is not evil. It is a human reality.'

Renly: not self defense at all because no one was threatening him prior to his declaration as King, starts a pointless war, is ready to kill his brother. Stannis: commits self defense and kills Renly, although you're again stupidly ignoring the fact we can't be sure Stannis actually ordered Mel to do that.

'Using shadow craft to achieve noble goals sells your soul and cannot be justified by the ends justifies the means.'

Yes it can. Sending thousands to their graves and destroying your future goals in the process, being totally oblivious to and uncaring of the lives of those who follow you and those who should follow you is worse. Everyone in the series prays for divine intervention and magic assistance, the only real difference is that Stannis chose the right gun and his magic actually works. Shadow magic is not necessarily evil: it revived Beric Dondarrion, for instance. To say 'it's bad simply because it's magic' is bullshit. Westeros is a fantasy realm. And it does not sell your soul. Are you one of Varys' little birds, perhaps, imitating his speech?

Anyone would have lost that battle under those circumstances. It was a close defeat, he nearly took King's Landing. It's also irrelevant to him being a good King or not. His host was mostly comprised of the vainglorious Knights of Summer that followed the fool Renly. He had to march them or lose them, so attacking King's Landing was the only viable option. Seriously, out of all the Stannis-haters on this board, you're easily the most laughable one with the least argument,s if you would call them that ('hurr he lost a battle he can't be King'). You're just throwing bits of shit at a concrete wall, hoping to tear it down and ignoring the boulders that are falling on your head and the people around you that are laughing at you. Nuff said.

Stannis is not a 'miserable SOB who doesn't get along with anyone.' He has a tarnished reputation because of Robert's (unjustified) hatred of him and no one can hold anything concretely wrong he did against him, they just have a general dislike of Stannis based on general opinion, not facts. Stannis convinced the Night's Watch and the Northmen, amongst others, to aid him. So he does get along with people, just not with people who decide hating him and going with the flow is the easier and safer option. People will be ruled by whoever has the power to come over and kill them if they disagree with them, which is the only reason the Lannisters still have 'support' after they fucked up the country so badly, and the only reason the Boltons are still Wardens of the North while they have spit on the most sacred of laws, killed people for fun, and whatever other shit Ramsay did. It doesn't justify any of them.

Because Robert didn't give him Storm's End to insult him despite him holding it for him and keeping the Tyrell host busy (decisive for the outcome of his rebellion) because Robert didn't like him. This is proven in one of Cersei's chapters in AFFC and again by Cersei in A Clash Of Kings in one of Tyrion's chapters I think. Seriously, you should stop posting. I'm beginning to become embarrassed in your stead.

Nope. No one would have done better in his stead. Renly had no battle experience at all and had probably pissed himself the moment he saw the wildfire. Joffrey? Don't make me laugh. Balon has no knowledge of land tactics. The prerequisites for the army taking Stannis' host by surprise were so many that it was always going to be very unlikely. It already started with Edmure Tully disobeying his orders. If you believe Stannis shouldn't be King because his scouts, luck, the knights he sent to convert the rest of Renly's host, and ultimately his army failed him and he failed to predict everything that would happen and didn't defeat a 80 000 men host with what little men he had while attacking a city, you're clearly just bullshitting and making stuff up because you think 'Stannis is a miserable SOB'. If that's the prerequisite for becoming King, you might as well already melt down the Iron Throne LOL. You have very little, if any, arguments at all, and all you've so far managed to say is 'hurr durr me no liek King Stannis.'

He did choose "to not use that power at his command" Melisandre he left out of the battle at KL. All his bannerman did get slaughtered what did you think happened when all that Wildfire blew. You are being kinda a prick about facts when you are one who is contradicting yourself. The FACTS are he lead everyone to their death. I'm not quite sure how you could see it any other way.

Oh yeah, calling me a prick, that's gonna work. Melisandre wouldn't have had much of an impact on the Blackwater, plus Stannis' claim would always have been disputed because he 'gained it through magic' if she was there, which would lead to even more instability and war later on. The wildfire only worked because of Imry Florent's mistake, and Stannis was actually leading his men to victory and was extremely close to victory before the unexpected reinforcements arrived. It's not like he 'lead them there to die' or with the intent of losing his army, 'I don't see how you could believe that'. Are you in your right mind to be suggesting Stannis should *always* avoid combat? He should avoid hopeless combat, and the attack on King's Landing was by no means hopeless. His bannermen knew the risk of attacking King's Landing. The only ones who should kill are those who are ready to die. You cannot compare his situation with Renly with the attack on King's Landing - King's Landing was a tougher nut to crack and Melisandre already remarked she can't endlessly use the same trick. Even if Melisandre somehow killed every command / noble in the city (which would be impossible), the city would still be loyal to the Lannisters until it was taken with a military assault. And again you're oversimplifying. Stannis didn't lose his entire army - actually those who remained loyal to him and didn't flee because they thought they saw Renly's ghost were mostly lead back safely to King's Landing thanks to Stannis' tactical ingenuity. He started out with about 2000 men, and he had about 2000 left after the Blackwater again.

Stannis wasn't Lord of Storm's End and all the bannerman don't follow him because he is a miserable S.O.B that can't get along with anyone.

Again you fail. He *should* have been lord of Storm's End by tradition, however Robert chose to insult him by giving him Dragonstone. The men Renly had taken with him were converted by him, the others would have been converted as well if they hadn't been stopped by Loras Tyrell. He gained the support of the Night's Watch and the mountain tribes as well as many Northern Lords when he went to the Wall. Turns out he can get along with people and you shouldn't always believe everything every character says about another character.

It was Stannis's choice to put himself at the time up against Renlys army of which he can't defeat.

And look, it worked! The set-up was to first treat with his brother, then convincing Renly's army to join him instead. And it worked. He didn't have the army for a head-on attack on anyone at the time. If he had done nothing, it would've only been a matter of time until someone had attacked him, because he, as the King, would always be a threat to any pretender.

Renly was a rebel and nothing more. Allowing him to take King's Landing would just have been swapping one regime that had to be destroyed for another. Plus Renly would have eventually killed him if he didn't act so his actions are perfectly reasonable. Stannis is the King, and should have been the Lord of Storm's End and had the more powerful bannermen Renly was commanding as well. There is no reason he should not be allowed to stand up and defend his law- and tradition given rights from the people who would deny them from him when someone like Renly who crowns himself King on the sole basis of 'having a big army and thinking I'm great' does get your sympathy. Basically the true wrongdoers in this regard are the Tyrells, even from your point of view, because they and no one else saved the Lannister's asses and allowed them to continue their atrocities, such as the Red Wedding.

If Bran gets the ability to Warg into people / creatures through Weirwoods it may become powerful. But they still wouldn't be Gods. Don't expect people to take something you say seriously if you can't back it up with evidence.

Tell that to Ned Stark.

Seems to me you're simply incorrectly oversimplifying the points I made 'cos you can't handle them. What you're suggesting is that Stannis would choose not to use the power at his command (and again, we are not certain he ordered Melisandre to kill Renly) and either allow his brother to kill him and all of his brave bannermen, disinherit his family and only child, let Baratheon bannermen slaughter each other which is exactly what the horrible Lannisters wanted and needed for them to remain on the throne, or simply wait at his castle until someone comes to do away with him and create a new song 'the Rains of Dragonstone', despite him being the one true King. Yeah, I suppose that makes much more sense, because that's what you would have wanted, or done in his stead. Allow yourself to be killed. Unfortunately, Stannis likes living, he does what he has to do, not what you want him to do, and that's the reason he's still kicking for now.

Burning people who are already sentenced to death for power that will help you with your righteous cause, that is. Praying for the gods to strike someone down or help you strike someone down is just the reverse thing: you're still trying to get someone killed. The concept of sacrifice is apparently also not very clear to people: sacrificial magic works in Westeros because the only people who can count on help from the gods are those who are willing to sacrifice and actually pay a price for what they're trying to achieve - why would the Gods aid those who simply pray to them to see to their every need? Why would they want such weak people to succeed?

^ Renly had to die. He was a usurper with no claim to the throne at all who was ready to plunge the realm into war just to become king (he would have gone to war with the Lannisters even if everything else didn't happen) and also kill his brother. Stannis (if he even knew it, which we can't be sure of) handled with him in the most effective way possible (no battle, less dead) that also dealt as little damage as possible to the realm (more men left to take on the horrible Lannisters). He, as the King, has that duty towards his subjects, bannermen and family. Allowing yourself and all the brave men who marched with you despite the odds to be killed in a close to hopeless battle which would greatly help the corrupt, unlawful regime that sits the Iron Throne as well as ensure the death of your family and allow them to be disinherited is not the way of the King. Other claimants to the throne are the result of incest and adultery, and with all due respect but no one seems to care about adultery much in Westeros (cfr Robert who was well-known for his adultery and nobody gave a crap about it). And if Selyse was your wife, well... It's Westerosi principles, not ours.

Ummmm... He pretty much DID sell his soul to a foreign, creepy God to win the Iron Throne. Everybody thinks Stannis is some super honorable noble guy, but he's actually quite pragmatic and will willing to do whatever it takes to win.

Close to everyone in the series prays for magic aid from the Gods. 'Warrior give me strength', 'Seven protect us all', 'May the Old gods protect you', 'Drowned God kill them all' ... The only difference there is, is that R'hllor actually has an impact. That's not selling your soul, that's just being smart and picking the right gun.

Well it depends on people's memory really. If they remember Varys' scene with Illyrio about killing Ned, they won't give much weight to his words. Melisandre wasn't even included in the attack, so his argument makes little sense and even the most casual of viewers will see Stannis was trying to take KL fair and square rather than relying on magic. I even saw someone remark 'why isn't he helped by scary gas demon?!' lol. Like in the books, almost all the information we get about Stannis is second-hand information given to us by his enemies. People may be able to see past that in time - I remember a lot of people saying Stannis grew on them gradually. When Tywin and Cersei will inevitably lose some respect (they have been toned down up till now, but Qyburn and the framing of Tyrion just has to happen) that'll only work to his advantage. If not, more people are sure to start rooting for him when he appears at the Wall and later even more when he's the only main guy left opposing the instigators of the Red Wedding and Ramsay the Horrible.