Melifeather

But there is room for interpretation. IMO Melisandre knew Cressen wanted her dead, but I don't think she knew exactly how it was to be done. And it's not like the Strangler is the only poison in Westeros. There's nightshade, powdered Greycap, basilisk and manticore venom, tears of Lys, Sweetsleep, Demon's dance, hemlock, wolfsbane, Widow's blood, and several kinds of mushrooms. Did Melisandre take antidotes for all of these things just to cover her bases?

Here's an example of Melisandre's visions...not quite clear, a little symbolic, ultimately misinterpreted. Melisandre thought for sure the "grey girl" was Jon's sister. Of course we all know now it was Alys Karstark and she was dressed all in black. Furthermore the Karstark colors are black and white. Even though Alys was fleeing a forced marriage, was Melisandre's vision even about her? Or was it about poor Jeyne Poole who was fake Arya, also about to enter into a forced marriage, who flees Winterfell with Theon Greyjoy, and in an early release Winds chapter is being escorted to the wall by Ser Justin Massey. Jeyne (fArya) is dressed in grey squirrel clothes. In Melisandre's vision, the grey girl turns to ash and crumbles. That doesn't bode well for poor Jeyne Poole. I'm not trying to derail this thread, but rather remind you of what Melisandre's visions look like and her ability to interpret them correctly. I acknowledge that she had a vision that gave the impression that Cressen was a threat, but I think its unlikely that everything was spelled out clearly for her.

Yes. This is true, and there are some clues that Melisandre already knew that Cressen was planning on killing her. Even Stannis says something to the effect that the reason why he wanted Cressen left sleeping is because he didn't wish him to die on his account. What I am saying is that her visions aren't always clear. Sometimes they are symbolic. So while I do agree that Melisandre knew Cressen would do something, I'm not convinced that she knew exactly how he would attempt it. She studied his face to learn if the toast was how Cressen planned to do it. Getting back to your other assertion that a slowly dissolving crystal might be seen. True, but couldn't they be chalked up to the dregs that are often found in red wine? They too are crystals and are sometimes called "wine diamonds".

Melisandre said she learned early on how to look if someone wanted to harm her. That statement is open to interpretation. Could it not also mean that she’s learned to read people - their body language - which is a teachable skill. If you go back to the text when Cressen offers the toast, Melisandre studied Cressen.

I've seen illustrations depicted of Sansa's hairnet and the stones look large. I think that's an assumption, because the hairnet itself is described as very fine silver strands - so fine that it's weblike. Could something that delicate hold a very big crystal? Even if the crystals were set wherever silver strands intersected, I think they'd have to be quite small. Cressens crystals are described as being like seeds. That's not very helpful if you ask me, because seeds vary so much in size. Were they super tiny like lettuce or carrot seed? Or a little larger like a radish seed? Or bigger like a pea or corn seed? Whatever size his seed crystals were, he had a dozen, and he secreted them in a hidden pocket in his sleeve. I was curious about the crystal making process, specifically how the potion needed to be mixed with ash and allowed to crystallize - basically through evaporation over several weeks. I was surprised to learn that this process is similar to how crystals can be created from wood ash or cremated human remains. I also learned that it's the acid in wine that dissolves the crystals and not alcohol. I am assuming a sour red would be higher in acid than other varietals. Knowing this I would conclude that the crystals would not dissolve in pigeon pie. Cressen was humiliated by Queen Selyce and was forced to wear Patchface's helm, but he saw a way to get poison Melisandre. He only dropped a single flake of the Strangler crystal into a half full cup of sour red and bid a toast. Cressen quickly and smoothly dropped a flake of crystal into a half-full cup of sour red. Stood up and proposed a toast to the Lord of Light. When Melisandre agreed, he walked towards the high table. Davos saw what Cressen did and tried to stop him. Cressen shook off Davos's hand that had caught his sleeve and he spilled a drop of the wine. I didn't know it was customary to share the same cup when toasting, but the scene is very similar in that Melisandre was described as drinking long and deep just like Joffrey's first drink from his refilled chalice. The description of "long and deep" implies the motion was slow which indicates to me that it was done carefully yet deliberately. Melisandre left Cressen only a half swallow of wine - such a tiny amount - but apparently where the flake of crystal sat slowly dissolving. In summary, Strangler crystals can be dissolved in wine - preferably a "sour" highly acidic wine, and that it doesn't dissolve as quickly as assumed, because Melisandre drank nearly all of Cressen's wine with no lasting effects. Similarly, Joffrey drank "deep" after his chalice was refilled 3/4's full and it wasn't until he got to the bottom that he was affected.

That was the description of the second drink. Your points are strictly argumentative based on your opinion on whether or not you like someone's interpretation of the text. You just happen to prefer your interpretation, but you have failed to convince anyone participating in this discussion because you are so off-putting. Let the facts stand for themselves free of condescension and whimsical dismissals. Have you forgotten that Tyrion took a flagon of wine from a serving girl? It is quite common for Kings and Lords to assign cupbearers to make sure their cup never goes empty. The serving girl was probably following Joffrey's chalice around to make sure it was filled as soon as it was empty. This is how I propose that the poison was dispensed - by the serving girl. This is new to me. When did Joffrey barf into his chalice? You are conveniently ignoring the timing for when each stage of this event occurs. First - Joffrey declares he has no wine. Commands Tyrion to serve him. Second - Tyrion takes a flagon of wine from a serving girl and fills the chalice 3/4 full. Third - Joffrey drank deep. Fourth - the chalice remains on the table in front of Tyrion and Sansa. Sansa notices Ser Illyn's sword and asks what happened to Ice. Fifth - Joffrey demands Tyrion bring him his wine. Joff grabs it from him and this is where he basically chugs it, upending the chalice, and spilling wine down his face. Sixth - Joffrey pushes his hand into Tyrion's serving of pie and tries to eat it. Seventh - Joffrey's coughing fit causes him to drop his chalice. If the smudge is residual as you insist, then why doesn't Sansa get any on her finger? She can't stop herself from feeling the empty setting. In my opinion (notice how I don't insist that my interpretations are proof) the descriptive word "smudge" is how the empty socket looked in the moonlight. The crystals reflected moonlight while the empty socket looked like a smudge on the hairnet. I will have to leave off for now. I have to work until 9pm this afternoon.

We do not know that for a fact. His first drink happened immediately. We do not know how quickly the crystals dissolve. The deep color was enough to catch Tyrion‘s attention. He considers it and then dumps the dregs out onto the floor. It seems implied that Tyrion was suspicious of the contents. I think my estimate of 10-12 seconds from drinking the wine to choking is plausible and certainly does not rule out the wine. We are told ahead of time that the crystals dissolve in wine. Maybe alcohol is necessary? I understood the smudge as being a tiny blurred or indistinct shape because the hard crystal shape was gone but the setting was still there. Not anything residual. i still stand by my assertion that Melisandre is not immune to poison, but she is educated about its properties, efficacy, and dosing. Cressen’s poisoning is a precedent for Joffrey’s as to how it would work. Melisandre was able to drink the top 2/3 unaffected so Joffrey’s top 2/3 didn’t affect him either. Littlefinger and Lady Olenna understand how the game is played. He made sure the truth was spread via the servants.

I believe Joffrey was the target, but I believe the Strangler was in the wine. I think the serving girl was assigned to cater to Joffrey and was also employed by Lady Olenna. Margaery surrounds herself with many female friends and relatives. It's good for appearances to make herself seem chaste and innocent guarded by all those women, but it also creates a network of female staff that take care of all of those highborn ladies. How easy it would be to cultivate a friendship with the serving girls! I posit that Lady Olenna removed a Strangler crystal from Sansa's hairnet and then gave it to the serving girl who would have been instructed ahead of time to wait for a specified time like the toasts or right before the pie or even after a diversion such as what happened between Joffrey and Tyrion. The dwarf jugglers were probably deliberate - something sure to put Tyrion in Joffrey's mind. He's pretty predictable when it comes to "who" he enjoys bullying.

No, I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. Joffrey takes two drinks from the chalice after it was refilled 3/4's full. In between drinks he leaves it sitting on the table in front of Tyrion. We are told in the text that the Strangler dissolves in wine. What we do not know is how quickly it dissolves. I doubt very much the crystal was in the pie, because it wouldn't have dissolved and would be a noticeable hard "something" like when you sometimes find a tiny bone fragment in bite of ground beef (so annoying!). Here is the text where Joffrey takes his first drink after the chalice is poured 3/4's full but the serving girl with the flagon: The text does say he "drank deep", but in my opinion the Strangler hasn't had enough time to dissolve. Here's the second drink from the same serving after the crystal has had time to dissolve: Joffrey begins coughing probably less than 12 seconds after he took the second drink. Get a stopwatch ready and pretend you're Joffrey. Hit "start" as soon as you put the goblet on the table, read Joff's lines and pretend to eat and talk. I actually tried it and I was under 11 seconds. As for Cressen....yes, he got a more concentrated drink than Joffrey. Joffrey had the top part of the drink just like Melisandre, and then he got the bottom just like Cressen. Like I said, the top part of the wine wasn't infused yet with the Strangler, because it takes time to dissolve. Actually, I would think the reverse would be more beneficial to the killer. A little bit of a lapse in efficacy would be to the benefit, because it offers concealment as to the real killer.

I too do not believe Melisandre is immune to poison. Most of Melisandre's powers are tricks and slight of hand. Like I've already explained in the post above, I suspect the Strangler crystals are heavy and would sink to the bottom where they slowly dissolve. Melisandre drank first and left only an inch in the bottom for Cressen where the concentration of poison was heaviest.

I've changed my mind about how the Strangler got into Joffrey after reviewing the text. When Maester Cressen died, he got the very last bottom of the wine in the chalice. Melisandre drank most of it first even after noticing that Cressen had dropped something into it. She even comments that it's not too late to dump the wine. She then takes the goblet and drank most of it, but left about an inch at the bottom where the crystals would have sat dissolving and invited Cressen to finish it. I think the reason it worked on him so quickly (and not on her) was because it was heavier and more highly concentrated on the bottom. Did Melisandre's internal fire protect her or were the upper layers of wine not yet infused with the Strangler? I'm thinking now that it would have had to have been stirred to ensure that the poison was mixed throughout. In the passage from Tyrion VIII, Joffrey's chalice was refilled 3/4's full right before he drank it. I think the crystal was in the flagon and the serving girl dumped the contents of the flagon into the chalice and the crystal sank to the bottom. Joffrey's first gulp then - like Melisandre - did nothing. Only after it sat on the table near Sansa and Tyrion did it dissolve fully and then probably was more concentrated on the bottom of the cup. Joffrey took a big gulp right before eating the pie, so big that wine was dribbling down his face. Surely the heavier concentration of the Strangler was then swept into his mouth?

Three (technically four) people had the opportunity to drop the Strangler into Joffrey's chalice. Here is number one - Lady Olenna and the flagon from a serving girl: If Lady Olenna had removed the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet, no one would have noticed if she came in contact with the serving girl with the flagon of wine. The serving girl may have been appointed as Joffrey's cupbearer to follow his chalice around to refill it when needed. Here are two and three - Tyrion and Sansa: Joffrey drank a good portion of the wine before he tried to eat pigeon pie. He barely got a couple sentences out before the effects kicked in. Tyrion is Tyrion. He's educated, intelligent, and I think in this moment he is wondering if the wine had something in it. He looks down into the bottom of Joffrey's chalice and takes note that the wine is a deep purple. I think we're to conclude its deep purple is due to the dissolved Strangler and that is why Tyrion poured it out on the floor.

The description of the white castle made me think immediately of Whitewalls which was on the shores of the Gods Eye a little over a generation ago. It was the location where Lord Butterwell abducted Egg and Bloodraven had the castle destroyed. Interestingly Ned's Ferry is very close by and it's my pet location for where Lyanna was actually found...the ruins of a tower long fallen and not that far from Harrenhal. But I digress...

Sansa didn't immediately gaze at the hairnet. It wasn't until she was out in the godswood and changing her clothes. She pulled out her clothing from where she had hidden it, removed her dress, and then pulled off the hairnet. The moonlight reflected off the stones which made the empty socket stand out.

This has been my thoughts the last few days. Lady Olenna plucked out a stone, brought it to Margaery, and she dropped it in the chalice.

The HBO House of the Dragons is quite good actually. They've stuck to the original story pretty well and the actors are just so darn good! Paddy Considine was incredibly good as Viserys!

It's been awhile since we've had a new topic to discuss and this is one that I've never explored before. It seems far fetched to me. I think the book confirms quite clearly that this was plotted out by Lady Olenna and Littlefinger. But its been fun going over the various passages that are brought up.

This is the smoking gun, isn’t it?

Sansa knows that an unconsummated marriage is not binding so she has no reason to kill Tyrion. Sansa has no idea that the gems are poison. Dontos only said the hairnet was magical and that she needed to wear it. It isn’t until after Joffrey died and she notices a missing gem that she becomes worried that they are not black amethysts. How could she even know to remove one and use it?

Surely you haven't forgotten the beatings Sansa took from Joffrey's Kingsguard? A complete re-read of Clash Sansa 3 is quite horrifying. In it Joffrey informs Sansa that her brother Robb had fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, that thousands were butchered and that the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain. Joffrey pointed a loaded crossbow directly into her face telling her that his mother told him not to shoot her or Robb might kill Jaime. Joffrey instructed Ser Boros to strike her, but to "leave her face". Boros slammed a fist into her belly, driving the air out of her. Then he grabbed her hair, drew his sword, and laid the flat of the blade across her thighs. Sansa thought her legs would break from the force of the blows. Next, Boros shoved his hand down her bodice and ripped her dress open to her waist, bearing her breasts. It would have gone much farther had Tyrion not walked in then and stopped them. The next Sansa chapter she's begging Dontos to take her away, but he refuses. He gives her the news that a ship has been procured, but because they are at war the river has been closed off. It is notable to remember that they are planning their escape well ahead of any inkling that she may be married off to Tyrion. All she wants is to get away from Joffrey. We are told that the Strangler dissolves in wine. We don't know if it would have dissolved in the pigeon pie. Tyrion had his hands on Joffrey's chalice. Dontos is the one that suggested the pie, but maybe he just didn't know where the Strangler was dropped or he was simply repeating what was said at the feast. If he knew it was Tyrion - and he pointed out that Tyrion had been arrested - he could have built on that and said Joffrey choked on his wine, but you don't typically block your airway with wine. Windpipes get closed off from food so to say that Joffrey choked on his pie was a denial that the amethysts were poisonous. Margery's mother, Lady Alerie - who may have known about the Strangler - was the first to say Joffrey choked on his pie. Everyone seeing how he choked was very important to getting away with the crime. Dontos was at the feast so he heard what Lady Alerie had said in consolation AND very importantly a simple suggestion for everyone within hearing to be passed around as rumor and to point the finger of blame away from Margaery. She could just as easily be seen as a suspect just as Tyrion was. Dontos wanted to reassure Sansa by copying Lady Alerie. Sansa accused Ser Dontos of removing a stone from the hairnet. Dontos was at that feast. He would know if Sansa did it, but he doesn't accuse her. I think that drunken fool really thinks it was magic that made Joffrey choke and it must have been on the pie. He was so excited to see the magic work that he chortled.

True story...forty years ago when my kid's father left me it occurred on the same day that my mother died. Anytime that I tried to speak to people I laughed inappropriately. It's was a dimorphous expression of emotion. When I was at home, I couldn't stop crying. I went into counceling, because the laughing disturbed and embarrassed me. I was so overwhelmed with grief I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. My counselor told me that the reason why I laughed was because if I didn't, I would be crying, and that it was my brain's way of dealing with the stress of emotions. I think GRRM's use of dimorphous laughing for Sansa is appropriate considering everything she went through. She went against her father, because she was a naive young girl with unrealistic romantic ideals. She was grieving, not only for her father, but for everything she thought life was supposed to be.

But the fact of the matter is, Joffrey was poisoned not Tyrion. So when did Sansa make her choice and why? You present your theory as Tyrion being Sansa's intended target yet Joffrey is the one that got the Strangler. We've got three people with motives: Petyr - wanted a diversion to get Sansa out of Kings Landing. He instigates the marriage to Tyrion to prevent the Tyrells taking Sansa to High Garden to marry Willis. Like you say, how many people would care if Tyrion choked? Would his death provoke as much chaos as Joffrey's? I have to say that this detail alone tips the scale towards Joffrey being Petyr's intended target. Lady Olenna - wants her granddaughter safe and the only way to do that is kill Joffrey and open a path to a marriage with Tommen who would also be more easily controlled. They do want a marriage to the ruling family, but Joffrey would have been much more difficult to manipulate and she wouldn't want Margaery harmed. The marriage into house Stark was more of a second tier in importance, and Lady Olenna's words seemed hollow to me. I don't believe she was really all that interested in Winterfell. Her words had a polite, but insincere feel to them. Once Sansa was married to Tyrion there was no desire to take her to High Garden, because doing so would put her in direct conflict with Tywin and the assumption that her maidenhead was taken would prohibit the match. It's quite clear then that the only target Lady Olenna was interested in was Joffrey. Sansa - I still believe her fear of Joffrey and her desire to get miles away from him far outweighed her unwanted marriage to Tyrion. She did hold some hopes that at the very least her marriage protected her from Joffrey. True, her marriage to Tyrion stood in the way of a future match, but Sansa does know that an unconsummated marriage is not a binding one and for that reason she doesn't need to kill him to be free of the marriage.

What places a book into the fantasy genre are the supernatural and magical elements. If we entertain the idea that she forgot that she did the poisoning I would expect that someone would have cast a spell on Sansa, or that the gems themselves had magical properties that affected the wearer. Dontos told her the hairnet was magical, but we know the stones were Strangler crystals that maesters that wear the chain of alchemy can create as well as alchemists from Lys and Faceless Men. Frey Family Reunion did not suggest a magical reason for Sansa's memory loss. He suggested repressed memories which is a psychological diagnosis. As for Sansa's warging abilities...I believe they are still there. She lost Lady, yes, but I believe she could develop another close bond with a different animal, and the Alayne chapters hint that one is developing with the household dog.

Repressed memory occurs when trauma is too severe to be kept in conscious memory, and is removed by repression or dissociation or both. At some later time it may be recalled, often under innocuous circumstances, and reappears in conscious memory. Which is more traumatic? Removing a stone and dropping it into food or drink, or watching your victim die? Sansa remembers Joffrey choking, but she doesn’t recall delivering the poison? You imply her hysterical laughter at being told she has a good heart is indicative of mental instability. Isn’t it more possible that her response was due to guilt and anguish at how she dismissed her father’s concerns about Joffrey and her refusal to follow his directive to leave Kings Landing? And how she took Joffrey‘s side over her own sister when asked about the sword fight?

Posting an alternative theory that hinges upon Sansa suppressing her memories is a big hurdle to get over and very difficult to be convincing. It leaves allot of unanswered questions. That may be your idea on how this all works, but it's not mine. If you aren't ready to have your essay critiqued then it's not ready to publish. If you post segments then you should expect comments.