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Melifeather

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  1. I saw something else when I was looking at the timeline...Pycelle told Tyrion that he helped Jon Arryn die. Lyssa Arryn takes credit for giving him the tears of Lys, but Pycelle told Tyrion that Maester Colemon was treating him properly, but that the Queen (Cersei) needed him dead. Ironically, I think Pycelle made an assumption that it was the Queen that had Jon Arryn poisoned.
  2. I don't think the text describes in detail when Tyrion poisoned his father. The only text that I've uncovered so far are the two passages that are two Tyrion chapters apart in A Storm of Swords. It's interesting that the claim by Pycelle that Tyrion stole his poisons is from Swords Tyrion IX (chapter 66) while the line about knowing where to find his father (on the privy) is Swords Tyrion XI (chapter 77). I would call this a very subtle revelation. Yes, Pycelle claims Tyrion took all his poisons, but by the time we get to Tyrion XI and the line about knowing where to find his father, we dismiss the line because its been several chapters from the accusation that we sort of forget about it and then Tywin didn't actually die from poisoning and maybe this is why Tyrion decided he needed to make sure the job was finished before he left? Here's a handy link for chapters. Joffrey's poisoning occurs prior to Tywin's assassination by Tyrion, but Tyrion (while acting as Hand during his father's absence) took Pycelle's poisons from him in A Clash of Kings - the book before Swords. Pycelle isn't restored to his position to make his complaint against Tyrion until Tywin returns as Hand in Swords. Tywin's poisoning is probably one of the three-fold revelations that we were discussing up thread. I'm thinking we remove the Cressen poisoning from the group and make Tywin's poisoning the first and most subtle of the three. Joffrey's poisoning would remain as the second and more blatant poisoning, with Ser Gregor Clegane remaining as the third and most spelled out poisoning.
  3. Here it is: That is a curious line. It does sound like it suggests Tyrion knew something.
  4. I don't know if its supposed to be a tradition to share goblets when toasting or for a bride and groom to share one at their wedding feast, but there does seem to be something "blatant" and "spelled out" with regards to having a three-foot tall golden wedding chalice with seven bejeweled sides and large handles on either side. The description sounds like a championship trophy! It's an attention grabber. It screams off the page to pay attention to the huge-ass chalice!
  5. I had read something too...something that made him constipated and that is why he was sitting so long on the toilet in the first place. I'm assuming the gut shot is why Tywin smelled so bad and the large amount of stool in his colon.
  6. This too bothered me all evening. I'd like to retract my post for now. Oberyn used venom. Then I thought the third was Jon Arryn, but Lyssa used Tears of Lys on him. GRRM does utilize a three-fold strategy, but I think I used an incomplete example. This doesn't change my thoughts that Melisandre's shared cup with Cressen was intended to be similar to Joffrey's poisoning though. Like you say, perhaps there will be a third one yet to come.
  7. I should add that the three-fold strategy unfolded in this order: The first, subtle - Cressen tried to poison Melisandre. (A Clash of Kings, Prologue) The killer is killed. The second, blatant - Lady Olenna poisons Joffrey. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 60) The killer (via a proxy) kills their intended target. The third, spelling it out - Oberyn poisoned Ser Gregor. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 70) The killer ends up killed, but still manages to poison their target. Sorry for all the edits...just small corrections in grammar and one book!
  8. GRRM's editor Anne Groell once said: I do believe that Cressen's attempted poisoning of Melisandre is one of GRRM's three-fold revelation strategies. I guess technically you could say this is a murder-suicide since surely Cressen understood he would die when he drank the rest of the wine. He was just hoping Melisandre died too. Joffrey's poisoning took out the intended target and concealed the killer. It was a successful murder and the killer went free which suggests that there was a third murder attempt by poison, that ends with the death of the killer...and there is such an account: Oberyn Martell. Oberyn poisoned his lance prior to fighting Ser Gregor Clegane - its what nearly killed Gregor and placed him into the "healing" hands of Qyburn who turned him into Ser Robert Strong. Oberyn, of course, was killed when Ser Gregor crushed his head.
  9. The wedding chalice symbolically represents the game of thrones. It has seven sides that might even represent the Andal Faith of Seven, with the seven major houses: Lannister (ruby lion), Tyrell (emerald rose), Baratheon (onyx stag), Tully (silver trout), Arryn (blue jade falcon), Martell (opal sun), and Stark (pearl direwolf). They're all playing games in order to gain power and it cannot look deliberate. The best game players, by all appearances, look innocent.
  10. Let's pretend we're the Tyrels for a moment and that we did plot Joffrey's poisoning. How would the preparations go? The 3-ft golden chalice with the seven bejeweled sides is an over-the-top gaudy wedding gift that was sure to capture a teenaged king's attention and likely insure that he'd want to drink from it - actually, he probably was obliged to drink from it since it was a gift intended to be used during the wedding feast. Its sheer size offers concealment in more than one way. When placed in front of you, you cannot see down inside. The solid gold would only shade the wine inside from light. It also insures that a full flagon is needed to fill it. If Joff managed to finish the first cup, he'd be sure to be intoxicated and less likely to notice anything amiss. Having Margaery share it - deliberately seen drinking from the same cup makes it appear safe. Surely the Tyrells wouldn't use a shared cup to poison Joffrey! That is why timing is so important. Margaery needed to be seen drinking from the same cup, but then a plan needed to be in place for when the cupbearer put the poison in: the toasts. They were waiting until the customary time to toast the bride and groom.
  11. But would you see anything at the bottom of a three foot tall golden chalice filled with red wine? I think that was actually the point of Mace Tyrell having such a large thing constructed. The chalice itself was deliberately made in order to disguise the poison.
  12. A three-foot tall chalice that Tyrion mutters is taller than he is... question - when Joffrey upended it over Tyrion's head, did he let go of the chalice let it fall to the ground? It's not clear how the chalice ended up on the floor, but when Joffrey demanded Tyrion pick it up, he kicked it away from Tyrion's hands. After Tyrion retrieved it, he takes the flagon from (I'm assuming) Joffrey's cupbearer, fills it 3/4's full, and then wonders if he's going to get another wine bath. Does this sound like the opportune time for Tyrion to drop the Strangler into the chalice? If you've only got one shot, you don't take it when you think it's just going to get dumped on your head again. I think this passage clears Tyrion as a suspect. Added to that, the chalice is as tall or taller than Tyrion. When it was on the table the rim would have been way over Tyrion's head. If Tyrion dropped the Strangler into the chalice, it would have had to be done during when he retrieved the chalice off the floor or when he refilled it. Refilling it must have been a challenge too. How did Tyrion hold the chalice and refill it and drop in the Strangler? Did he place the chalice on the floor while he poured the wine? At first I thought he placed the empty cup on the table and then filled it, but that would have been physically impossible for someone so short. No, Tyrion retrieved the cup from under the table. Joffrey demands that he refill it. Tyrion takes the flagon from the cupbearer and fills the chalice 3/4 full. Joffrey takes the chalice, drinks deep - as deep as someone can when they're tipping a 3-foot high chalice 3/4's full, and places it upon the table in front of Tyrion. It's not until Joffrey decides to shove his hand into Tyrion's pie that he tries to finish the wine and it pours down his face. If Joffrey was the target and the poison was in the pie, why was it Tyrion's piece that had it? I remain firmly convinced that Joffrey was the target, that the Strangler was dropped in the wine flagon by his cupbearer, and not in the pie. I also suspect that Margaery understood when the Strangler would be placed in the wine and that is why she was calling Joffrey back to his seat for a toast. She too would not want the wine wasted on top of Tyrion's head.
  13. Okay, this next part confirms my suspicions that the 3ft tall chalice was the one used at the wedding: And this... I am delighted to have proof that Joffrey had a cupbearer and that a flagon could fill this giant, three-foot wedding chalice.
  14. I don't think they typically use glass goblets. More likely silver or bejeweled.
  15. True, the Ghost of High Heart (who many suspect was a child of the forest with the gift of green dreams) did say she saw a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, dripping with venom, but she never offers an interpretation. As for Melisandre's vision of Cressen - we'll never know, because we weren't privy to any of it on the page. You are filling in some blanks here but, if that's how you interpret it who am I to say that you are wrong?
  16. But there is room for interpretation. IMO Melisandre knew Cressen wanted her dead, but I don't think she knew exactly how it was to be done. And it's not like the Strangler is the only poison in Westeros. There's nightshade, powdered Greycap, basilisk and manticore venom, tears of Lys, Sweetsleep, Demon's dance, hemlock, wolfsbane, Widow's blood, and several kinds of mushrooms. Did Melisandre take antidotes for all of these things just to cover her bases?
  17. Here's an example of Melisandre's visions...not quite clear, a little symbolic, ultimately misinterpreted. Melisandre thought for sure the "grey girl" was Jon's sister. Of course we all know now it was Alys Karstark and she was dressed all in black. Furthermore the Karstark colors are black and white. Even though Alys was fleeing a forced marriage, was Melisandre's vision even about her? Or was it about poor Jeyne Poole who was fake Arya, also about to enter into a forced marriage, who flees Winterfell with Theon Greyjoy, and in an early release Winds chapter is being escorted to the wall by Ser Justin Massey. Jeyne (fArya) is dressed in grey squirrel clothes. In Melisandre's vision, the grey girl turns to ash and crumbles. That doesn't bode well for poor Jeyne Poole. I'm not trying to derail this thread, but rather remind you of what Melisandre's visions look like and her ability to interpret them correctly. I acknowledge that she had a vision that gave the impression that Cressen was a threat, but I think its unlikely that everything was spelled out clearly for her.
  18. Yes. This is true, and there are some clues that Melisandre already knew that Cressen was planning on killing her. Even Stannis says something to the effect that the reason why he wanted Cressen left sleeping is because he didn't wish him to die on his account. What I am saying is that her visions aren't always clear. Sometimes they are symbolic. So while I do agree that Melisandre knew Cressen would do something, I'm not convinced that she knew exactly how he would attempt it. She studied his face to learn if the toast was how Cressen planned to do it. Getting back to your other assertion that a slowly dissolving crystal might be seen. True, but couldn't they be chalked up to the dregs that are often found in red wine? They too are crystals and are sometimes called "wine diamonds".
  19. Melisandre said she learned early on how to look if someone wanted to harm her. That statement is open to interpretation. Could it not also mean that she’s learned to read people - their body language - which is a teachable skill. If you go back to the text when Cressen offers the toast, Melisandre studied Cressen.
  20. I've seen illustrations depicted of Sansa's hairnet and the stones look large. I think that's an assumption, because the hairnet itself is described as very fine silver strands - so fine that it's weblike. Could something that delicate hold a very big crystal? Even if the crystals were set wherever silver strands intersected, I think they'd have to be quite small. Cressens crystals are described as being like seeds. That's not very helpful if you ask me, because seeds vary so much in size. Were they super tiny like lettuce or carrot seed? Or a little larger like a radish seed? Or bigger like a pea or corn seed? Whatever size his seed crystals were, he had a dozen, and he secreted them in a hidden pocket in his sleeve. I was curious about the crystal making process, specifically how the potion needed to be mixed with ash and allowed to crystallize - basically through evaporation over several weeks. I was surprised to learn that this process is similar to how crystals can be created from wood ash or cremated human remains. I also learned that it's the acid in wine that dissolves the crystals and not alcohol. I am assuming a sour red would be higher in acid than other varietals. Knowing this I would conclude that the crystals would not dissolve in pigeon pie. Cressen was humiliated by Queen Selyce and was forced to wear Patchface's helm, but he saw a way to get poison Melisandre. He only dropped a single flake of the Strangler crystal into a half full cup of sour red and bid a toast. Cressen quickly and smoothly dropped a flake of crystal into a half-full cup of sour red. Stood up and proposed a toast to the Lord of Light. When Melisandre agreed, he walked towards the high table. Davos saw what Cressen did and tried to stop him. Cressen shook off Davos's hand that had caught his sleeve and he spilled a drop of the wine. I didn't know it was customary to share the same cup when toasting, but the scene is very similar in that Melisandre was described as drinking long and deep just like Joffrey's first drink from his refilled chalice. The description of "long and deep" implies the motion was slow which indicates to me that it was done carefully yet deliberately. Melisandre left Cressen only a half swallow of wine - such a tiny amount - but apparently where the flake of crystal sat slowly dissolving. In summary, Strangler crystals can be dissolved in wine - preferably a "sour" highly acidic wine, and that it doesn't dissolve as quickly as assumed, because Melisandre drank nearly all of Cressen's wine with no lasting effects. Similarly, Joffrey drank "deep" after his chalice was refilled 3/4's full and it wasn't until he got to the bottom that he was affected.
  21. That was the description of the second drink. Your points are strictly argumentative based on your opinion on whether or not you like someone's interpretation of the text. You just happen to prefer your interpretation, but you have failed to convince anyone participating in this discussion because you are so off-putting. Let the facts stand for themselves free of condescension and whimsical dismissals. Have you forgotten that Tyrion took a flagon of wine from a serving girl? It is quite common for Kings and Lords to assign cupbearers to make sure their cup never goes empty. The serving girl was probably following Joffrey's chalice around to make sure it was filled as soon as it was empty. This is how I propose that the poison was dispensed - by the serving girl. This is new to me. When did Joffrey barf into his chalice? You are conveniently ignoring the timing for when each stage of this event occurs. First - Joffrey declares he has no wine. Commands Tyrion to serve him. Second - Tyrion takes a flagon of wine from a serving girl and fills the chalice 3/4 full. Third - Joffrey drank deep. Fourth - the chalice remains on the table in front of Tyrion and Sansa. Sansa notices Ser Illyn's sword and asks what happened to Ice. Fifth - Joffrey demands Tyrion bring him his wine. Joff grabs it from him and this is where he basically chugs it, upending the chalice, and spilling wine down his face. Sixth - Joffrey pushes his hand into Tyrion's serving of pie and tries to eat it. Seventh - Joffrey's coughing fit causes him to drop his chalice. If the smudge is residual as you insist, then why doesn't Sansa get any on her finger? She can't stop herself from feeling the empty setting. In my opinion (notice how I don't insist that my interpretations are proof) the descriptive word "smudge" is how the empty socket looked in the moonlight. The crystals reflected moonlight while the empty socket looked like a smudge on the hairnet. I will have to leave off for now. I have to work until 9pm this afternoon.
  22. We do not know that for a fact. His first drink happened immediately. We do not know how quickly the crystals dissolve. The deep color was enough to catch Tyrion‘s attention. He considers it and then dumps the dregs out onto the floor. It seems implied that Tyrion was suspicious of the contents. I think my estimate of 10-12 seconds from drinking the wine to choking is plausible and certainly does not rule out the wine. We are told ahead of time that the crystals dissolve in wine. Maybe alcohol is necessary? I understood the smudge as being a tiny blurred or indistinct shape because the hard crystal shape was gone but the setting was still there. Not anything residual. i still stand by my assertion that Melisandre is not immune to poison, but she is educated about its properties, efficacy, and dosing. Cressen’s poisoning is a precedent for Joffrey’s as to how it would work. Melisandre was able to drink the top 2/3 unaffected so Joffrey’s top 2/3 didn’t affect him either. Littlefinger and Lady Olenna understand how the game is played. He made sure the truth was spread via the servants.
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