Rickon is FIERCE

no one has told Tywin that Arya is missing. Like many have explained before me, Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, Purcel etc. are still trying to find her in Kingslanding, they don't want to have Tywin mad at them, so they haven't told him yet.

Not sure Tyrion wouldn't have told him. Perhaps not, but I can't see why he wouldn't, other than to try and prove his worth by finding her himself and carrying out damage control on his own. Up in the air I suppose but he does mention a few episodes back at the beginning of the street scene where the dude calls him a demon monkey that although he's been sending communications to Tywin he's not heard any responses. So he is keeping Tywin abreast of the situation in KL, pure conjecture about what he's leaving in or leaving out.

You have no basis on claiming that the northmen aren't well read or well spoken.

Aren't there a few references to the Umbers' illiteracy? Can't remember if that's book only or both.

So Tywin is not stupid, it makes sense that he doesn't know his cupbearer was Arya, or any other Highborn Northern girl. You seem to think its so obvious to him that she is Highborn, but it's not. Arya's answers to his questions were very good, and a Highborn girl would not have been captured the way she was. Everyone would think that if she is Highborn, then she would tell someone, that way she is not treated like lowborn street scum. That's why it's so clever of Arya to not tell anyone who she is. In the books, she was treated badly by Wease at Harrenhall, most people would not pretend to be lowborn in a situation like that, because the lowborn are treated like shit.

I have to disagree on this. It was obvious to him that she's highborn, hence the "m'lord" discussion. As I said earlier, her answers didn't fool him, hence the "too smart for your own good" comment. Of course she would masquerade as lowborn and unimportant if what she wants- wisely- is to avoid attention. Hell masquerading (as a boy) is what she was doing when he first found her at Harrenhal, so it's not exactly out of character for her from what he knows of her. And he figures out she's a Northerner on his own- he asks and she confirms. So yes, he can figure that out.

"Most people" might not want to act lowborn, but most people also wouldn't act as if they were boy recruits for the Night's Watch, either, who aren't treated very well, themselves...which, by the way, is yet another clue to her being a Northerner trying to get back, though admittedly very subtle.

The only real mistakes season 2 made in terms of storyline were probably Jaime's totally out-of-character cousin-head-smashing and Talisa being from Volantis. The Red Wedding was planned with consultation/sharing of knowledge with the Westerlings, remember? Talisa needs to be a Westerling.

:agree:

He doesn't even act as a father to his own kids.

Cersei won't let him for fear of tipping people off about the incest. Later in the books, when he finally begins to come out of his disillusionment over her, he does start to try to reach out to Tommen a little.

See you don't think Arya's answers were convincing enough, but I though they were very clever, clever enough to fool Tywin. Especially because he. does. not. know. Arya. is. missing.

Nobody ever told him. When Tyrion got to KL it was a shock to him, and he never told Tywin, because he wanted to try and find her first, and of he can't, then he can always put the blame on Cersei for letting her get away. That's why it makes sense he didn't think she was Arya, because in Tywin's mind, he would think that of she was missing, somebody would tell him. It's a perfect storm really, for why he does not know it was here. Again, her answers were also very convincing in my opinion.

Her answers would be clever enough to fool some, perhaps most, but not Tywin. This is the point of that "did anyone ever tell you you're too smart for your own good" line....it doesn't make sense unless Tywin knows she's lying. If she's just telling him the truth, what's so savvy and smart about that?

Tyrion is lauded for it, Catelyn is despised.

This is a good observation; if you are referencing reader/viewer reactions, people's perceptions are skewed by the fact that most like the Starks and want them home, so they like Tyrion for being willing to give them up, but they hate the Lannisters, Jaime in particular, so they want him to pay at all costs rather than be given his freedom. But I also think many people, myself included, saw Jaime as a far more valuable hostage than the girls, whether or not he is, in fact, an albatross, as some have said. I despised Cat because it seemed to me that all she had done by freeing Jaime was traded the death/imprisonment of one child (Robb) for the hope of life/freedom of two others (the girls)...to me the war was over once Jaime was free. Does one man make or break the war effort? Not necessarily...I'll use everybody's catch-phrase of the butterfly effect....on morale for both armies, on bargaining positions, on Robb's perceived strength as a king... just the way I saw it.

Why would Tywin leave a child with the Mountain? Guess he forgot what happened last time he did that. :dunno:

Not at all. More like he didn't care what he did with her. Which is, IMO, one of the only things about the whole Arya/Tywin plot that actually rings true of him.

a nasty name for a nasty thing"

WHAT?!?! Hardly :leer:

Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

Yup, they did.

I have a feeling they are going to make Bolton's "turn" a part of the Red Wedding for a bigger impact, and to make him a clearer heel vs Stannis in the later books.

I think you may be right, but that "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" line may have to come out, then, which is a shame.

Except that she clearly mentions it to Robert as well. Something like "after our first boy died". I know Robert isn't the brightest bulb in the shed but I think even he'd notice if Cersei was suddenly inventing babies that never existed.

She also describes him to Cat as having black hair, which, though minor, to me gives it a bit of validity. If she were calculatingly thinking it up I think baby boy'd be blonde like his half-sibs. Thin, I know, and yet...

More to next week... Hoping for the Three Whores (trebuchets/catapults) to make an appearance slinging wildfire(sp?).

The summary for next week's episode includes: "Joffrey doles out rewards to his subjects." I interpreted that as a description of the bodies from the three whores interlude. But those weren't really flung at his people, so perhaps not.

Removed for accidental double post.

Re: why Ros was thought to be Tyrion's whore, that necklace bit comes from last season....remember Theon's infamous full-frontal scene with Ros in which Tyrion was discussed...Theon notices the lion necklace and gets pissed and Ros talks about how some of her clients pay better than others...

Marrying someone other than a female member of the Frey clan seems to do the trick. Sending Theon to the Iron Islands is a suitable substitute. Putting cousin Alton in the same cage as The Kingslayer and providing only one guard which just happens to be the son of one of your bannermen who has already suffered the loss of another son will work in a pinch. Leaving camp to negotiate a surrender, but asking an unmarried nurse to accompany you, looks bad, is bad, and might just lead your allies to think you have failed to keep your eye on the ball, so thinking with your balls would also fall under harebrained if you find the previous options less to your liking.

Good points all. Book Robb was impulsive and foolish wrt Jeyne, which I actually found understandable and tragic in the books in its context, but don't even get me started re: Theon, which I didn't find nearly as understandable. Jury's still out in my mind on whether or not I like the fact that HBO made it Theon's idea to go negotiate with Balon (though that could be how it went down in the books, as I believe all we know of it is Robb telling Catelyn his plans, but not their genesis). Unfortunately, though, HBO made Robb even dumber, for several of the reasons you list, which sucks because he was so kickass at the beginning of the season, before all his scenes devolved into romantic mush.

I think we'll see this come up again at a later date. One thing it does show you now is that LF is clearly not on the Lannisters' side, since he didn't say anything to Tywin.

LF is only on one person's side, ever and always.

This may be true, but there is one problem: its not economical. What I mean is that it complicates a relatively simple story line. If Robb marries Jayne/Talisa it does not matter that much if she is a Westerling of a Volanese. To Walder Frey a betrayal is a betrayal. We then advance the story in much the same way regardless of whether or not we ever meet the character's family. This way- if Talisa is exactly what she says she is -we still get to the Red Wedding without any fuss or muss. Tywin can still get wind of this and still alert Frey and Bolton (its possible Bolton is Tywin's spy, not Talisa).

However, if Talisa is Jayne Westerling, we then have to spend time introducing us all to her family, which means more actors, more plot, more time with Robb and draws us away from the other major players. In other words, more time an effort that would all be saved if Robb just marries this Volanese woman he has loved for so long. Same betrayal, same outcomes, BUT more economical as the writers have already completed that investment in the story and WOULD NOT have to reinvest in it in the third season.

I don't think it's quite the same, if we take as given the arguments of economy/budget/simplicity and leave the rest, I still think it blows that Tywin will only be in cahoots with the Freys in bringing about the RW. The Westerling subplot was a brilliant, cold and calculating bit of Tywinesque strategizing and opportunism, nicely echoing his lifting of the siege in KL during Robert's rebellion, and it would have been nice to have that side of things included. Especially considering the whole grandfatherly rapport with Arya this season, I think he's not quite coming off as the powerful, unstoppable monster he is in the books, and the viewers may find it hard to gel with Tyrion taking him out later. I know we've heard the Tysha story, but we've seen the Arya interactions, so it's up for debate how non-readers will interpret him. I agree with the earlier post about his casually dumping Arya on the Mountain as a good view of cold-hearted Tywin, but that again, is partially due to the fact that those of us who've read the books have reason to fear and loathe the Mountain much more than the TV audience, who've only seen him slaughter a horse and heard the story of what he did to little bro as a kid.

He clearly did not know. LF even tested his knowledge when he (LF) found it out with his comment about DaughterSSSS.

I interpreted that as bait for Arya's reaction, but I guess it works for Tywin, too...

I loved how Tywin/Arya ended. It was a meaningless arc (plotwise), but developed both characters better than Martin ever did. And it ended perfectly. After weeks of soulful conversations, clearly a bond forming, Tywin casually tosses Arya into the meat grinder because she serves no purpose for Tywin Lannister. That moment so perfectly defines his character. With 5 seconds of effort, he could have put her in a good position (working somewhere decent in Harranhal or even dispatching her with a couple of peon guards to Moat Caitlin for a small ransom, she is a Northern Highborn). But no, it's not worth that 5 seconds of effort, so he gives her to the worst human being on the planet. LF, however, did know who she is. He also knew Tywin did not know. I don't understand how he would leave Harrenhal without such a valuable commodity. It's like seeing a copy of Detective Comics #1 at a yard sale, and not paying the $2 they are asking for it. I understand that story-wise they can't let LF get her, because her story doesn't go that way, but we should have seen LF's plot to grab her get foiled.

Like this a lot.

Regarding Tyrion and the Chain or lack thereof: I put a few context clues together from the Varys/Tyrion/Bronn banter and I believe they are scraping the chain entirely in favor of another method. I think Tyrion "the Highborn Plumber of Casterly Rock" will devise some scheme with flushing rather than flinging a majority of the wildfire into the waters of Blackwater Rush. The scene with Bronn shooting the fire arrow made it seem as though he could have been using it to set the contaminated river ablaze. I still think they will probably fling some wildfire, and use ships full of wildfire as battering rams, but I think the crux of the plan will be the river itself. Not necessarily as ingenious as the chain, but it serves the same purpose of "trapping" and eviscerating Stannis' fleet. It's probably a lot more budget conscious as well, and would still be creditable to Tyrion's ingenuity. Just a thought.

A very good thought, and I do believe you're right.

The bay of wildfire seems quite plausible and really not much of a change. I think we will definitely see "Renly", though likely it will be Loras. Maybe as Tyrion's last image before he drops unconscious. Even possible as the last shot of the episode.

I think Loras as Renly is highly likely and I think it would be a good change. Don't think it's dramatic enough for the end shot, though. I sort of assumed it'd be Bran and Rickon out of the crypts revealing they were alive but now that that's shot, I'm thinking homage to last season the dragon(s) burning down the House of the Undying...though it wouldn't really finish off Dany's plotline from Clash.

Since D&D have gotten input from GRRM on the future plotlines, maybe the whole Jeyne/Talisa thing may take a more impotent role in the next book. If I remember correctly, Jeyne is not at the RW, and the possibility of a Stark heir is still unresolved. (null)

True, we don't exactly know that there isn't a Robb Stark heir, but we do know about Jeyne's mother getting in the way of that. Not impossible, of course, for GRRM to throw us a curveball later; one might even say it is likely, considering Jeyne just sort of disappeared and nothing much has been said about her. Discarded b/c she was merely a plot device or saved up and waiting in the wings with a little understudy in her belly...who can say? Look what happened when LF disappeared for awhile....

@legba11

Since prev. thread is locked I can't quote you, but I think it's personal interpretation re: whether the Halfhand was "captured" or no. It just reads tougher to me to have him die- sacrificially to boot- before anyone could technically take him into custody. I respect him more. It echoes something of the grit in the old Hollywood westerns. Also lines up well with Ygritte's answer to his question in the prev. episode, which is why I find it bizarre that he now shows up a prisoner. Don't really know what the point of having her say that was.

Quorin gets caught by the Wildlings in the book.

Been ages since I read it, but I remembered Jon and the Halfhand being cornered with no way out, not ever exactly captured. Could be wrong, though.

Until now I was hoping they will engineer a disclosure scene for Jeyne Westerling so the real beauty of Tywin's plot would not be lost.

I also don't get why people want Talisa anything other than she appears to be. Because it is a different character than in the book?

gmavridis has the right of it, at least in part. Tywin's plotting with the Westerlings and Walder Frey was a masterful example of Tywin's brilliance, ruthlessness, and power- echoing his "dishonorable" means for taking KL in Robert's rebellion- and it seems this will all be lost without Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling. Is it "necessary" for the plot or characterization? No, but it's badass and intelligent and it's a shame to miss out on it.

what a great image, when Varys and Tyrion talk about the dragons, with the flames on the foreground...

Yeah, loved that bit.

I'm starting to fear it is to give her something to do IN the House of the Undying, INSTEAD of walking around having visions... If I think about it more, that makes sense. They have left everything that is dreams, visions or prophecy out, except when it is for Bran (where it is quite obviously very necessary). So why would they include those from the House? Showing the RW without giving too much away is difficult, the vision of Rhaegar has no immediate part in the storylines so far (and we didn't get the other R+L=J clues either). I'm lowering my expectations, that way i can only be pleasantly surprised...

Same thoughts here.

Remember that interview with the actor who portrays Renly, Gethin Anthony, when he said that the horses were tough to deal with? He said how you only saw people on horseback, not getting on nor especially getting off, because it was always an unfilmably clumsy/embarrassing ordeal requiring a lot of help? Well, we’ve now seen Charles Dance’s Tywin doing both things. We saw him dismounting his horse when he first got to Harrenhall, and now we’ve seen him mounting one two. I thought his moves looked completely natural both times. I was especially impressed with his arrival, when he dismounted like a real trooper. Which I suppose is just what he is. A real veteran, and a true actor. He’s done all this before, many many times, and it shows. Bravo! Some things you just can’t fake convincingly. Charles Dance is Tywin Lannister. And we have two more seasons of him. Can’t wait!

:cheers: On this we can agree. Brilliantly cast. Don't know if you care for this sort of thing but his portrayal of Tulkinghorn in the BBC Bleak House production is even better. Scary as hell.

Every since I first saw Stephen Dillane as Stannis, I thought he was perfect. That is exactly how I pictured Stannis in the books, and the actor is doing an amazing job. If anything has been lacking for Stannis so far, I think it's the writing, and not the acting. So I definitely agree with you there, it just clicked much earlier for me, that he was the perfect Stannis. Same goes for Liam Cunningham as Davos...When Tyrion and Varys were walking the walls, I thought that scene was awesome visually. Getting to see both the castles to the right and left of where they were standing was awesome.

Spot on, all of it.

Yes, that's why the first part is more like a joke (it *was* funny), and the second is what I'm really thinking. I don't think people are as negative as you're making it out to be. @ Versiroth: Yes, I believe what Alboin is saying is that he doesn't mind that at all, but that he does mind the decision of Robb to bang her of his own accord (rather than Jeyne wanting to 'comfort' him) before even 'finding out' Bran and Rickon are dead (like most of us do). It just destroys a lot of sympathy you could have possibly had for the Starks that they take the decisions that lead to their doom without the emotional devastation that news caused them. It also destroys the possibility it was a Westerling plot all along (I always felt that way, what with Jeyne not getting pregnant and the Wolf not trusting them).

Yep. I really thought the whole Westerling Momma/Tywin/Frey plot which led to the RW was great writing and good storytelling, which we have been set up for. We know how prickly Frey is about being slighted by the greater houses- the Tully's in particular- from Season 1, so I do feel the motivation for him would be the same were Robb married to a Westerling vs. a Volantian. If folks feel the need to see the falling in love, that's their perrogative, just don't really see the point of switching her character. I'm not sure we need slave city backstory, slavery=bad to everyone already, just the fact of a city being a slave city would be enough, I think. I don't see how Tulisa's little life lesson story makes anyone feel anything about slavery that we didn't already.

It was clear in the books that Tywin and the Westerlings (not necessarily Jeyne, but maybe) had a deal; Mom Westerling kept pouring moon tea into Jeyne to keep her from producing an heir, and Tywin mentions the Reynes of Castamere in a conversation with Tyrion re: Robb and the Westerlings and we put two and two together. It's all perfect Tywin and I'm not sure why they might want to drop it. Hope they won't.

I should have just gone to school today instead of sitting home and bitching.

Probably.

I love Ygritte in the show more than I liked her in the books, and I really liked her in the books

I also think she's doing a great job, which is nice because I couldn't stand her in the books.

It's official, Ros is the Kilroy of Westeros. I'm debating whether or not I should start a thread about how instrumental Ros was to every mystery in the story. I resented the character, I struggled against her...but like a stockholm syndrom victim, I embraced her and began to love it.

Who hid the Dragonglass in the Fist of Men? Ros, of course.

Also, three guesses as to who is under Qualithe's mask.

(Also, an excellent episode mostly because it had interactions between my favorite banter couples...Tyrion/Bronn, Davos/Stannis, Jaime/Brienne. I had to go lie down after all that)

Fucking brilliant.

It's clear that she bothers him and he sees what's coming and perhaps might already be thinking ahead like the crafty bastard he is. Foreshadowing at its best. Nicely done. Because of the necklace he gave her in episode 1. Trust me, you've seen nothing. You should have seen the Sword Of Truth forum when the show aired - it was enormous. I think people on this board are very civilized in voicing the gripes they have with the show and should have the right to voice these without being shot down as 'bloody purists'.

:cheers:

I'm thinking that Talisa is going to turn out to be the daughter of Gerion Lannister, Tywin's youngest brother who was last seen in Volantis before he sailed off into Smoking Sea looking for Brightroar amid the ruins of Valyria. As to whether or not she'll turn out to be working or spying for Twywin... no idea.

Intriguing...

I always felt the Ironborn were morons here. Yeah, your strength lies in the sea. You still went to war against the North and you aren't going to conquer it or be ready when Robb goes North by harrying a few villages and staying at sea. Either don't go to war or do it properly. Theon's chances weren't fantastic, but at least he committed to the hopeless war they started. Balon and Asha had learned absolutely nothing from Theon's brothers deaths and would've steered towards the same old end if not for Euron. But here Yara when they were alone went for different angle. A Ironbron dies at sea. She wants her brother to be an ironborn win or lose. Theon doesn't get this, he doesn't see how being Prince of Winterfell and Ironborn are two different things. Which is what his character arc is all about.

Brilliant.

I like Jorah's being all "off course i remember you stepping out of flames unburnt. You were supernaked. I think about that moment every second of every day."

:lmao:

Not a bad episode. I could have cheerfully done without seeing more Robb/Talisa scenes; but at least Roz didn't talk too much while standing in for Alayaya from the books. Cersei was in better form in this episode - perhaps she just had to have somebody whipped to restore the confidence that was lagging in the last episode? It's not easy being queen... Finally, a moment or two when I liked Asha-Yara. It started when she had her feet up on the Winterfell table; a pose that seemed very Asha-ish. Nice scene between her and Theon. Poor Theon is still trying to be both Stark - wanting to compensate the miller for murdering his foster-sons - and Ironborn by claiming credit for killing Bran and Rickon. Alfie Allen is extremely believable as Theon. Tyrion is very much in love with Shae; and it seems fairly obvious to the viewer that she thinks he's cute, or gullible, but she certainly is nowhere near reciprocating his deep feelings for her.

Good points all....totally with you on Cersei...amusingly put...

Re: Shae, I always read her as a total golddigger...ironically the very thing Tyrion thought Tysha was...thought it was great writing for GRRM to juxtapose those two in that way and mess with Tyrion's head and heart.

The Jamie/Brienne Road Trip sets off in fine style! More of these two, less of Talisa and Robb, and I'd be a happy watcher! The Dany/Jorah scene had a lovely view of the Mighty Cheekbones and Azure Eyes of Iain Glen, but not much else.

Here, here!!

I'm sorry but that's one of the main problems I have with this episode, because honestly it makes Tywin look like a fool. All those past episodes I though he knew who she was and just kept her around that way for his own specific reasons that were supposed to revealed later, and I was thrilled to see where this was going. Yet now? Tywin realizes she's a highborn northern girl, yet make no move whatsoever to find out who she is? How many northern girls are running around in a war, I ask you? How come she was able to be captured when the Lannisters haven't even breached northern territory? How come that nobody told Tywin that Amory Lorch chased Arya five minutes before he got murdered? The show also lets Tywin assume he was the target of the murder where the way the killing happened clearly suggests he isn't (Lorch drops dead into his room with the dart already in his neck) Tywin just appears to be big idiot instead of smart strategist. Way to ruin a role, imo.

:agree:

Osha being seen in broad daylight, and Luwin talking to her? Yet more watering down of the great writing in the books to provide TV-esque plottery for the general public. I should have put money on Ros being the Whore That Fulfils All Plot Points That Require A Whore.

Yeah, that Osha thing was a wtf moment for me, too.

Knew that Ros thing was coming...love the way you put it, though.

I think you are missing the criticism. It isn't that change is bad. Its the quality of the changes that's the problem. This is a we will have to be an agree to disagree arguement. And we all realize its an adaption which will necessitate changes. In fact, when they do it well, I think they deserve tonnes of credit (i.e. Theon's execution of Roderick). When its done poorly or not thought through, they can be called out. Tywin and Arya is annoying, because there is no payoff. Its a great concept, with a some great moments, but its pointless because of the lack of payoff. Shae fails, because the writing never established the importance of the relationship to Tyrion before the scene with Cersei. Or a single scene that redeems Shae as a character. They attempted last week with her coming to the defence of Sansa, but that felt trite to me. Talisa and Robb is boring. I know good dramatic and comedic writing when I see it and this season has unfortunately lots of bad writing and plotting.

:cheers:

Although I did find it weird Robb imprisoned Catelyn, whereas in ASoS, he knew she did it for the best. I guess since the Tullys aren't in this season, we'll have to save face with that one. And I was also expecting the mention of the chain, especially near the end where they were looking across the bay, I just thought Tyrion would mention it. But hey, Blackwater's gonna be a beast nonetheless! Although it would have been a beautiful scene if episode 10 ended with Bran, Rickon, and co. being revealed for the first time since their "deaths", with the camera following their shadowed backs out of the crypts and out into the ruined Winterfell. Would have been a great ending and shocker for the audience.

Iirc, Robb did place Cat under house arrest at Riverrun in the books; I don't think he's actually having her penned up in the show.

Re: the chain, I think it'll be sprung on us like it will be on Stannis and Davos. They're saving it up.

And I completely agree about seeing the kids escape the crypts at the end of the season. Would've been stellar.

I wonder if they're trying to make the Jeyne thing some big shocking reveal for the last episode, like, whoa, this girl King Robb has fallen in love with is actually the daughter of a family that is on the other side, what will he do now? For me, that sacrifices characterization for a sort of lame surprise, but I can see where they might have thought it would be cool in the writer's room. It just doesn't seem to be working on screen.

Agreed.

In the preview for next week, does anyone else think it looked like Stannis was leading the charge off the rowboats, into the defenders of Kings Landing? Don't get me wrong, I am glad the are showing something that makes Stannis look like a badass, but Stannis isn't really that type of badass. He is definitely the more cautious Commander, and if he leads the charge, they are going to have to make him look even more badass IMO. He would have to be super badass, in order to survive to fight another day, after having led the charge right into a trap, and then being flanked by the Tywin/Tyrell army. So if my eyes did not decieve me, and if that preview was not just crafty editing to make it look like Stannis leads the charge, then I am very curious/excited to see Stannis fighting hand to hand the whole battle, and how he will survive it.

Damn straight.

I feel almost redeemed with this train wreck of an episode. Every major issue I've had with this season's writing was pretty much proven correct. 1. The miscast and terrible writing of Shae. Who bought for a second that Tyrion had fallen head over heels for her? There hasn't been a single scene this season that would suggest that his feelings are anything more than sexual, and now he is near tears? Uggh... 2. Talisa - Stupid unnecessary rewrite of a minor character which required a long lenghty and boring backstory this week, that adds really nothing to the Robb/Jeyne Westerling union. I wasn't against modifying the original story given the aging up of Robb's character, but this was as awful as expected. It isn't the actors, both are more than competent to deliver the goods, but I wasn't feeling anything with these two. Even the clumsy attempt of humour during the stripping down scene, as least I think was an attempt, came off as terrible. 3. Arya and Tywin - Yes - They have chemistry in spades, but other than Cersei and Tyrion, what two characters had more screen time together this season? And what was the point in the end? Nothing. Yes - We got some lessons in great acting from Charles Dance and Maise, but to have no real significant point for the characters suggests what a poorly thought out idea. Why not at least play up the drama and have Tywin get a letter from Tyrion indicating they have lost Arya and Tywin suddenly clueing in on who this high born girl is? At least it would add some drama to the events at Harrenhal. Or as I like to call it "Arya's Haunted Castle Vacation" 4. Qarth. Despite all the rewrites and changes, it remains the weak storyline that it was in Clash of Kings. It feels like its taking her a month to get from the kidnapping of the dragons to actually visiting the House of the Undying. That said, I did like Stannis and Davros, and Tyrion with everyone (excluding Shae).

Great post..."Arya's Haunted Castle Vacation" :lmao:

He is truly the prince that was promised.

DYING!!!! LOVE IT.

Yes. All of this. I think Maisie could probably have chemistry with a chair. She's so brilliant!!

The Lord of Bones! That was cool, though he needs to clatter more ^_^

LOL :agree:

Did she escape already? I wasn't clear on that, if they had only just gotten past one of the gates. If that's really the end of her stay in Harrenhal, that's really lame. Having her slit the guard's throat and not care at all is the best ending for her arc for the season. Plus, she has to meet up with Jaqen again; him knowing her real name and giving her the coin is very important.

Yeah, it didn't occur to me until several posters pointed that out...technically the escape isn't necessarily over, so there is still hope. Totally agree with you.

It’s ridiculous and it’s painful. It is annoying. It subtracts from the experience. It’s fucking assinine.

Subtracts from your experience, not everyone's. If you're pained and annoyed, don't read.

I would prefer one that forbade them to complain about every... tiny... inconsequential... deviation... every... d@mn... week.

Well you're free to start one. This thread is all-inclusive and it's a little unrealistic to expect there won't be "purists"/"nitpickers" etc. on it.

I almost laughed when Sam mentioned Qhorin as a great ranger, when in the scene before he's been caught by wildings, all because he let Jon Snow escape from him to execute Ygritte, and somehow couldn't find him in time. Great ranger my ass. He has none of the mystique or presence from the books; just seems to be the ranger in charge whose only purpose is now for Jon to kill. --Robb Talisa. Just don't like these scenes at all, and I really think the time could have been spent better elsewhere. Robb now breaks his promise to the Freys because she told him some really long story about her brother drowning? Whatever.

Agreed.

I really like the scene in A Storm of Swords where Stannis decides to name Davos his hand, when it appeared he might have him executed. Here, he just sort of mentions it offhand, and I'm not really sure why this couldn't wait.--I also think they revealed that Bran and Rickon were alive too early. This could have been held back at least another week, and I feel like they really hammered it home too much. Not only does Theon mention it to Dagmer, but Osha has to be seen outside the tombs and Maester Luwin has to visit them inside. --Cersei Tyrion scene was good, though it does feel really jumbled with how they've been portraying Cersei. Last episode she and Tyrion were confiding their thoughts to one another closely, and now this episode she feels Tyrion is out to kill Joffrey, who she basically admitted last time out she doesn't even really care for him.

Also agree.

There were some great moments in this episode. The best for me was Arya's little shrug in answer to Jaquen's "a girl has no honor." Perfect.

That was awesome.

I thought this was the most balanced and complete episode of the season. Here is what I liked: The Time Taken and the Time Spent: The best part of this episode was that it felt like every individual story-line was given the time and the space to grow and it did not feel like I was watching a “Meanwhile-at-the-Legion-of-Doom” highlights. The episode gave each part of the show the time it needed to feel real and fully formed. This was maybe the only episode all season that did not feel fragmented and disjointed. Heck, I even liked the Jon Snow parts. The King in the North (-West): Look, for reasons not entirely clear to me, some viewers do not like Robb’s relationship with the Volantian woman. But watching Robb comfortably talk to another woman (unlike Jon who with Ygritte has all the comfort of being naked on a nail-bed) is refreshing. He seems to care about her and she seems to have a genuine affection for him (or is a double-agent). When Robb said he did not want to marry the Frey girl, not only do I believe him but I kind of (sort of) understand him. Tylesa is a complete person filled with empathy, kindness, bravery, intelligence and decency. And Robb is all those things as well. And if she turns out to be a double-agent FUCK that's hot... wait, what? And before I forget- I liked that when they were having sex they both laughed. FOR ONCE on this show sex is seen as a positive and fun event. I mean, its going to kill Robb, but hey, still fun. And when he unloaded on Cat I was right there with him. She fucked it up. And she had to be told. Robb told her. And fuck her; freeing the KS was weak. The Siege of Storm’s End and Robert and Renly’s Brother: Stannis is, possibly, my second or third favorite character in the books (Handless and Noseless take 1 and 2 (usually)). And on the show he has stepped up, gotten laid, and nailed this part. Whenever he speaks you get this sense of not only his determination and raw (almost pathological) force of will, but you can sense his emotional void; how when he held Robert’s center he deserved not only praise but gratitude. Instead, he got sent to Dragonstone. And all the while he talked about the horses and cats and dogs and the hate the hate the hate. And also the unfairness. One of the reasons I like Stannis (and one of the reasons I think the actor is hitting Stannis so well) is because I think we have all- at one time or another- known what its like to be truly treated unfairly. Stannis IS the rightful King and his realm is the Seven Kingdoms. Period. Whatever Robb or dead Renly or Tywin think matters not at all. Robert was King died without legal issue. Case closed. And yet he ain't the King. And so that same sense of fairness that drives Stannis also serves him to treat Davos well; it causes him to listen to wise counsel and it makes him toss aside those who are arrogant, proud and wrong. To me that’s why Stannis works. So, ... so the fury comes out... woe be onto they who gets in that way- Mace Tyrell, Renly, the castellan of Storm's End, Gold cloaks, Mance Ryder or some Karstarks. You've. Been. Warned. Fuck... if I was Mace Tyrell I'd want ANYONE King other than Stannis. Stannis has to be the only guy in the 7 Kingdoms who kicks the shit out of you and then says "Want a rematch?" And he never blinks. The actor who plays him I think has blinked like 8 times this season. The Jaime and Brienne Show: Now that Tywin and Arya has been cancelled, I hope the Jaime and Brienne show is able to hold that time spot. So far so good; Jaime is arrogant and infuriating; Brienne proud and unbending. They make an amazing duo. The Salvation of Jon Snow: Okay so it only took them three episodes but I think the show has been able to cobble together the important bits and save Jon Snow’s story-line. They are going to do the Halfhand fight etc. And it may, potentially, save time in the long run. If that’s the case than this worked out. IF not, well…. “You know nothing, Jon Snow” is going to be the worst drinking game ever. The Spider and the Imp: I got nothing ‘cept that. Don’t need to say anything else. Bran: A boy knows… What I am on the Fence about: The Least Shocking Reveal Ever: Who didn’t think it was going to be Roz? Okay, I know- we read it in the books and all but … if you made 50 people watch this show Episode 1 to Episode 18 and then RIGHT BEFORE she walks out ask them “Who is going to walk out in that room?” How many of the 50 say “Roz?” And how many of them roll their eyes when they say it? I’m going to say 32 say “Roz” 20 of them roll their eyes and two guys add the word “fucking’ to her name. Now for me, I was fine with it, it just felt utterly unnatural the whole time. And when Roz walked out all I could think of was “Thank Christ I don’t have to listen to Shae! And then the next scene had Shae in it so I ran cold water in my bath tub in preparation of opening a vein, but, hey- she was fine. Dany: It was a pointless scene. We could have had no Dany this week and tacked on that scene to the week when she burns down the House of the Undying and it would have been fine. But what was there was fine. We Get It He’s A Moron: Whenever Theon talks to … anyone… I just want him to stop. And its not because he’s poorly written or poorly acted, but because Theon Greyjoy is a car wreck. And with that said, its pretty much IDENTICAL to him in the books so not complaining about that just … why does Theon have to be so … human? What I did Not Like: Fuck it! Was a great episode. No bad things to say really. Just next week… I put odds of Stannis dying at 25% and climbing. Fuck… just like Book 5… Stannis. Is. Coming.

Brilliant, mate. FUCKING LOVE STANNIS, TOO :cheers:

Good Lord you can not care about the changes or care about them and either point is valid. Discuss the points, not the people. If it irritates you to read "purist" comments don't read em. Or find/create a thread that doesn't allow people to disagree with anything HBO does.