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About Ygrain

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    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

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    Czech Republic
  • Interests
    Fantasy, history, Tolkien, Dragon Age, Mass Efect, fanfic
    gardening, embroidery,

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  1. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    And what they told. Because we only know that Brandon "heard about Lyanna". If he heard, say, that she left a letter saying "screw Robert, I'm leaving with Rhaegar because I love him and will become his second wife", I can imagine that Brandon would still be pretty miffed and consider Rhaegar a seducer who filled his sister's head with bullshit to get into her pants.
  2. That dream about wearing an armour of black ice doesn't exactly scream Dayne. Nonsense. The similarity is the promise and the mother's response to it, the identity of the father is irrelevant to it: The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.” She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Also, Barra is so very young, a child-woman. That is bound to trigger Ned, as well. Your argument is largely irrelevant, I'm afraid, as Jon's dreams do not reflect on any real-life event, nor do they contain memories "as it had been in life". That memory with promises, blood and roses is of Lyanna's death. The dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, it features blue roses petals and his response "I promise" to her calling - in other words, the dream is connected to Lyanna's death, as well. And since Ned dreams repeatedly about ToJ, the three white knights and Lyanna's death, those three things are connected. Two out of those three things are confirmed by his memories and I see no reason why the third thing should be disconnected. If Lyanna was never there, then the name "tower of joy" needs to be explained, we still don't know where Lyanna died and why the three KG hung out in the middle of nowhere or why Ned considered necessary to fight them. Localising the scene comes in one of the "as it had been in life" paragraphs, so I don't see what makes you think the location is false. - Though, you are right - it wasn't in Dorne but before it. The location of ToJ had already been stated, so no need to repeat it. He then goes on "Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.", by which he elaborates on the content of the dream without mentioning any discrepancy or problem with the location, so I don't see anything that would make the information from the dream invalid.
  3. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    Indeed :-) There are a couple other similar instances, such as Ned mentioning that Rhaegar named the place "tower of joy", which is rather weird for a rape place unless one is called Ramsay, or when Robert's whoring brings Ned to musing whether Rhaegar possessed the same vice, which equals to comparing Lyanna's betrothed with her rapist, and that would be one hell of weird thinking on Ned's part. Not sure which way you are leaning here, but GRRM's response to what happened with Rhaegar's corpse was "he was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens." This, of course, brings about the question who called the shots to honor Rhaegar like that because it couldn't have been Robert. Methinks, the answer is Ned, and that would constitute another clue, IMHO. I hope that when TWOW come at the long last, we'll get some an infodump on the events preceding the Robellion, it's definitely long overdue.
  4. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    Amen. There is absolutely no way Ned would want to put baby Jon on the throne, and absolutely no way he could gain support for such a plan.
  5. Ygrain

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    I don't see why Varys shouldn't believe that KL would burn down. To me, there are two possible scenarios (with Varys definitely knowing): either he planned a quick and safe excape route, which he would take the moment Aerys gave the order, or he planned to dispose of Rossart the way Jaime did, only Jaime acted sooner. IMHO, the escape route would involve a ship either into the bay, or upriver, as the stashes were placed around the city but not on the water like during the Battle of Blackwater. I can also see Varys staying around pretty long, the kind of scheme he is carrying out requires quite some balls
  6. Ygrain

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    However, we don't know about Varys' whereabouts after counselling Aerys. He might have been keeping an eye on Aerys to make an expeditious leave once the order was given, perhaps keeping a ship at the ready, and when Aerys was Jaime'd, he simply returned in time to hail our new king Robert. We're missing quite a lot of information here :-(
  7. Should I be glad I never watched it? I love Greek mythology and the way it is being butchered these days is almost as bad as the way the Athurian legend is being butchered.
  8. I agree that Robert wouldn't take kindly to any child of Lyanna's by another man, but with R+L=J, there is one huge difference: the child is Rhaegar's heir and has a claim to the throne, which many might be willing to back. If it became known that Ned Stark had Rhaegar's son, Robert could order him to surrender the child for the good of the realm, could even rally his vassals against the Starks, and would find backing for this as the child would be perceived as a threat to the stability of the realm. Whereas, if Robert wanted to off any other man's child, he has absolutely no grounds to do so, no support in the realm. Denounce Starks as traitors because they are raising Arthur Dayne's son? Seriously? Later on, it is specified that the promise to Lyanna was made when she was in her bed of blood, which is birthing bed. It doesn't rule out post-birthing complications, which would involve both haemorrhaging as well as fever (most likely, childbed fever). When Ned ponders all the occasions involving murders or attempts on children in which Robert closed his eyes, it is stated: He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. Sansa was pleading with him to save Lady: stop them, don't let them do it, she's innocent. Lyanna may not have been pleading with these exact words, but the idea would be the same, to protect her innocent child, not to allow anyone harm him. Also, Lyanna's relief parallels that of Barra's mother when Ned promises to take care of the girl. Either Ned brought the news, or the news had reached ToJ prior his arrival. I am leaning towards the latter, as it allows for interesting possibilities in who knew what and from what source, with incomplete information possibly leading to the tragical fight. To play a bit of devil's advocate: we don't know when they learned. We can only be sure that their choice to fight was a well-informed decision and they knew exactly what and why they were doing.
  9. Ygrain

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    The very contrary. Unless Varys was totally in the dark about the wildfire plot, which I find rather difficult to believe, that's what he should have believed - that the fire would destroy everyone and everything, so he didn't have to look for any substitute and he could have smuggled out comfortably any number of people who could have gone into hiding afterwards.
  10. Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. I don't think that Arthur Dayne scenario qualifies.
  11. Ygrain

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    Oh? And where does it say that Brandon was her first? Or that she saw their affair as more than just a tumble with a hottie? Agreed - but 99% out of next to zero is still next to zero... A huuge assumption here. Noble girls don't hang out with guards, and Ashara as Elia's companion is a stranger to KL. There is very little basis to assume that the guards would be inclined to risk Aerys' wrath for her. Not if it can make you a toast. Plus, you haven't elaborated how Ashara came to know the secret tunnels. Hate to break it on you but lack of food, water, light and the like can undo the libido like nothing else. I wouldn't know, a quickie would be like the last thing on my mind.
  12. Well... some time ago, @teej6 introduced a story from Indian mythology in a very similar setting - IIRC, the girl was to be married to someone, was in love in someone else, the families would never allow it... so, a very consensual abduction happened. When her family came to seek bloody retribution, it was pointed out that she was holding the reins of the charriot, hence she kidnapped him, and her family couldn't do a thing Love is the death of duty. It is known.
  13. Ygrain

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    Lol, I'd say that sneaking and bringing buckets of water are mutually exclusive, even if you have a full freedom of the castle. BTW, when Ashara sneaks in, who do you suggest opens the door for her? I don't think he took care about hygiene and proper sanitation, either. The place is as uninviting for sex as it gets, and I highly doubt that even Brandon himself would be in the mood. And she is definitely not in KL at this time. Why should she go there on her own, without Rhaegar, with a baby son and recovering from the childbirth that nearly killed her? It's not clear how much time passed in between but if she was bedridden after the birth of Rhaenys for six months, there is no reason to assume that her recovery after Aegon's birth was miraculously fast. Does Ashara now have DnD rogue skills to find secret entrances?
  14. I think that the part about taking what they want doesn't necessarily apply to Lyanna, but I don't exclude it, either. And as for Lyanna and Rhaegar's roles being reversed, I proposed this scenario quite some time ago Maybe she even took Rhaegar at swordpoint? Besides, there is a possible parallel with Alys Karstark - running from an unwanted marriage to a higher authority, and due to being swept off his feet, Rhaegar didn't find it in himself to refuse. Though, I do think that the sweeping off was mutual, that sniffing over Rhaegar's song does seem to be indicative of something, and Rhaegar's inspired victory seems to be paralleled with Jorah's victory for Lynesse. Very much, only no-one who isn't Robert describes him as such. - Oh, one more point, though not from Ned's PoV: Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar when she saves the women from rape. Not that he has any way of knowing, but clearly, in his mind, Rhaegar is not the raping type. Well, love is the death of duty, as they say, and there are definitely certain double standards at play, but having an affair iss not the same as sleeping around. Plus, Rhaegar would be keeping to one bed - Lyanna's. Since he never loved Elia and she cannot birth any more children (Aegon's birth either left her barren, or the next childbirth would kill her), he has no reason to have sex with her. I don't see how memories, old or not, can be considered unreliable unless the person has memory issues, and conflicting reports can be compared to memories, thoughts or behaviour, to see if they hold any water. If rape is the official story but Ned's reactions contradict it and nearly everyone thinks that Rhaegar was a good man, then the rape story is most likely not true. Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned's continuous disillusionment and realization how much Robert has changed doesn't qualify? where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead Jon, fAegon or Dany aren't Robert's heirs. I don't think Ned had any legalese loop in mind, he just couldn't make himself write "my son Joffrey" when he knew that wasn't true. I like Jon, too, regardless of his parentage. He is simply an interesting character, a bit entitled boy growing to be a fine young man under difficult circumstances. He defends a weaker person against attackers, just like she did. With a practice sword. Rhaegar was talented in next to anything and was a charismatic leader. Jon excelling over Robb made Cat feel uncomfortable every time and he seems to be an inspiring leader to a lot of people, too. The lack of restraint in emotional moments (waking the dragon?) doesn't seem to come from the Stark side, either - though, thinking about Uncle Brandon, perhaps it does. He is brooding enough and has had some peculiar dreams. Nurture is a bitch
  15. But of course he does. People usually don't say about a beloved dead sister who died as a result of kidnapping and rape that her own wolf blood led her to an early grave. Neither do they jump from being critical of her betrothed (and their BF) to making an assessment that the rapist didn't possess that particular vice, especially when the guy was so depraved as to call the place where the sister was imprisoned "tower of joy". Yep. But we never hear that Lyanna went to smell them in the greenhouse every day, plucked them for her bedroom and the like. We only hear that she got them from Rhaegar. Lol, perhaps she might actually be impressed by something more exotic to her? Could be either. If blue roses are considered something special in the South, as well, then they would be a good choice for a lavish tourney. The blue passages are from the dream, the green passages are mentioned elsewhere in Ned's PoVs. The one purple passage is from Ned's feverish recollection in the black cells. The bolded passages are not the content of the dream but Ned's inner monologue comments: He dreamt an old dream, He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. of three knights in white cloaks, Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. and a tower long fallen, Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. ... “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …” Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed ... It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.