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About Ygrain

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    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

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    Czech Republic
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    Fantasy, history, Tolkien, Dragon Age, Mass Efect, fanfic
    gardening, embroidery,

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  1. Yes, that's the way I'm reading it, as well. She would be perceived as blameless, and Rhaegar would take the blame on himself - he would place Lyanna's honour above his own. Which is what Robb does for Jeyne, regardless the personal cost to himself. We could even say, with similarly tragic consequences. I agree that post-tourney, the Starks wouldn't be inclined to allow this. However, if Lyanna's stay had been arranged pre-tourney, cancelling the arrangement would mean, besides breaking a Stark word, implying that Lord Whent would be unable, or unwilling, to protect Lyanna's honour like his own daughter's. I think Lord When would be mightily offended. Would the Starks want to offend him like that? Could they even afford to? Not to mention, would Lyanna comply? Was there a way she coud be bodily dragged away without causing yet another scandal? I'm not sure I fully grasp what you have in mind here. Why do you think the HH events would require talking to Jon Arryn? A good point about Ebert Arryn and Royce as Brandon's companions. How did they end up with him? Was Brandon visiting the Vale during Ned's time there, or did they become acquainted at HH? I find it hard to imagine that they would choose to accompany a guy that had only met. Or they did not dare to engage the Crown Prince at swordpoint? But Robert was definitely absent, I agree. You are always so nice
  2. If she travelled officially and not Alys Karstark style, then she certainly would have been accompanied, but even so: the parallels with Ned's journey south and the complete mess it was still offers plenty of opportunity. However: the swordpoint version comes from Dany's chapters, hence has to be taken with a grain of salt as a potential romantic embellishment. It could even be a coverup protecting Lyanna's honour in case of mutual elopement, either as a rumour or a staged abduction. I think I have brought this up before - there is such a staged abduction in G.G. Kay's A Song for Arbonne. I'm not saying GRRM must have read, or taken inspiration from this, I'm merely pointing out that such a scenario is not out of realm of possibility. The problem is, is it still winter when Rhaegar "eventually" comes back into the Riverlands? I don't think the passage of time is indicated anywhere, and we don't know where Rhaegar had to go so urgently that he abandoned his wife and newborn Aegon. ETA: @SFDanny, why do you think Lyanna might have been in the Vale? To my best knowledge, this is indicated nowhere in the text, and the fact that Ned and Robert are still in the Vale when the summons from Aerys come, IMHO, speaks against it. If Lyanna was in the Vale, those three would have been travelling for the wedding together and Lyanna snatched from under Robert's nose would have been something worth mentioning. Had that happened, I don't see how Robert could have been convinced not to pull a Brandon or something else similarly stupid. Also, I don't see why, in the aftermath of Lyanna's abduction, both of them would travel back to the Vale - with Brandon imprisoned and Rickard having to deal with this blow, Ned would have been instrumental in coordinating House Stark's powers, and a message to Jon Arryn could have been relayed via Robert alone. Also, sorry but I'm currently unable to adress all the points I'd like to, and I don't know if and when this might be possible, so I apologize for the brevity.
  3. I don't think that the wolf blood here refers to ignorance in political matters, but rather a tendency towards impulsive behaviour. Elsewhere, Ned says: "Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens." To me, this reads that Brandon was an intelligent man, perhaps even politically savvy, but his rash nature (and most likel his ego, as well) sometimes got in the way of that savviness. In that case, I suppose Ned and Robert wouldn't be in the Vale but at Riverrun, or at least on the way? However, I do think that the two weddings might have been quite close to each other in time, so that people spared themselves some long travel. Also, if Rickard indeed had some Southron ambitions, it would make sense for him to travel around Westeros under the pretext of his children's weddings.
  4. Only, Brandon doesn't seem to be inclined to present his matter to Aerys, he is hellbent on challenging Rhaegar right away. I find it quite plausible that Brandon wanted to challenge Rhaegar first and foremost, but that still doesn't explain why he went to King's Landing. Brandon would have to be very ignorant not to be aware of the strained relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar, and I find it hard to believe that he would expect the two to collude to kidnap Lyanna. IMHO, Brandon's reaction to Lyanna's crowning when he had to be restrained not to come to blows with Rhaegar (or perhaps challenge him then and there?) points towards more personal motivation - and, indeed, if he thinks that Rhaegar is a callous womanizer like himself, he would project quite a lot into Rhaegar's motivation. In which case, he absolutely would have wanted to challenge Rhaegar to a duel, but not expect him in KL. I've long proposed that Brandon went to KL due to some misdirection but I admit that the OP's solution offers the easiest and most elegant solution. The reason why I never thought about Rhaegar himself as its source is that I was misled by another parallel, from Worlorn, with a love triangle awfully similar to Cat-Brandon-LF involving a false message. I'm not letting LF off the hook just yet (a chance meeting on the road/ at the inn and a couple of words with far-reaching consequences would have been in line with his later career) but I'm afraid that it would require quite a lot of coincidence. A related question, though: where was Rickard in this scenario? Was Lyanna travelling from the North in his company (meaning the "kidnapping" would have had to occur right under his nose), or was she travelling separately (most likely from HH)?
  5. A very plausible explanation, OP. Doesn't explain, though, why Brandon thought that Rhaegar was still in KL with his father who he didn't get on with, when all he had to do was take a ship to DS. Would it really be so difficult to check if the Crown Prince was in KL, and why wouldn't Brandon believe when told that Rhaegar wasn't there?
  6. Ygrain

    “It should have been you.”

    She had a breakdown. It's not like she didn't care, her head wasn't functioning right. One child versus two children and a husband, and by extention, the safety of House Stark. A nasty choice but one that had to be done. One child versus the survival of House Stark. Again: it had to be done. It's very sad when people have to prioritize like that but I really don't see how she might have stayed at home with a toddler while other members of her family, whose fate would affect the said toddler's future, were in mortal danger. On a side note: has GRRM ever stated if "it should have been you" was inspired by the very same scene between Denethor and Faramir? (now that was one hell of family abuse, if you ask me). - Come to think of that, Denethor even later has exactly the same breakdown when Faramir is injured.
  7. Ygrain

    What to ask GRRM?

    Don't recall this phrasing, but he did say that Brandon died "before he had sons", so either a daughter(s) or a posthumous son are still on the table. I suggest close reading questions which probably haven't been asked before (read: the questions I'd ask if I had the chance): - When Olenna mentions Rains of Castamere at Purple Wedding, is this an intentional Red Wedding parallel as a signal for the poisoning scheme to start? - Did Rhaegar dismount at some point during his duel with Robert, or is the HotU scene showing him sinking to his knees merely symbolic embellishment? - Alternately: when Jorah says that Rhaegar fought nobly, is he referring to some specific action/event, like the duel between Rhaegar and Robert? With the first question, I am aiming for a confirmation if there were more people on it - e.g., if it was a warning for Margaery not to drink any more, plus, the short Olenna most likely wouldn't be able to drop the strangler into the tall chalice, so she would need to signal her accomplice. The point of the second question is if there is a parallel with Daemon Blackfyre getting killed due to his chivalry and there is an intriguing discrepancy between the vision and the depiction of the duel as a mounted combat. ETA: Got one more as I was responding to the thread about Cat and Jon: When Cat says to Jon "it should have been you", was it inspired by a similar scene between Denethor to Faramir?
  8. He's taking after his mama's side of the family. Nature and nurture working together, I suppose :-)
  9. Wow. One then has to wonder if GRRM had something specific in mind here when he wrote Lyanna as a half-Dothrakicentaur.
  10. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    I mean, Dany knows Lyanna's name, why the ambiguity? In case it escaped your attention, the whole scene is left purposefully ambiguous. A blue flower, a stone beast.... yet a couple chapters later, we learn that Dany did identify the flower, as a blue rose. Dany knows that Rhaegar supposedly "died for the woman he loved", knows about "his northern girl" whom he "carried off at swordpoint". The one and only female name that would make sense to Dany in this context is Lyanna. If she couldn't recognize the name at all, she wouldn't know it was a female name. If the name was completely unrelated to Rhaegar, she would wonder later why the hell he said "Susan" as his last word. If it was "Elia", she would have thought that he must have loved her, after all, when Barristan claims that he was "fond of " Elia.
  11. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    Trust me, the variations of this possibility have been discussed very thoroughly in this thread :-)
  12. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    Ned's thoughts on multiple occasions are not consistent with the rape version, either. I don't think anything is being glossed over, it's just that Rhaegar was known by many while Lyanna's feeling could be reported only by Ned or Benjen, or Bran via the weirnet. Ned's PoV would have made for a pretimely revelation and the other options are clearly meant for much later in the books. - That said, I do believe that Ned's thought provide veiled hints that Lyanna actually made her own choice and chose Rhaegar over Robert, but with no further corroborating information, the case is not as strong as for Rhaegar loving Lyanna. With a very non-fairy tale-like ending... I'd say that the prophecy led him away from Dragonstone, to look for some guidance for his problem, and gave him a pretext to follow the romance which he, being a dutiful guy, wouldn't have chosen solely to satisfy his feelings.
  13. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    And what they told. Because we only know that Brandon "heard about Lyanna". If he heard, say, that she left a letter saying "screw Robert, I'm leaving with Rhaegar because I love him and will become his second wife", I can imagine that Brandon would still be pretty miffed and consider Rhaegar a seducer who filled his sister's head with bullshit to get into her pants.
  14. That dream about wearing an armour of black ice doesn't exactly scream Dayne. Nonsense. The similarity is the promise and the mother's response to it, the identity of the father is irrelevant to it: The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.” She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Also, Barra is so very young, a child-woman. That is bound to trigger Ned, as well. Your argument is largely irrelevant, I'm afraid, as Jon's dreams do not reflect on any real-life event, nor do they contain memories "as it had been in life". That memory with promises, blood and roses is of Lyanna's death. The dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, it features blue roses petals and his response "I promise" to her calling - in other words, the dream is connected to Lyanna's death, as well. And since Ned dreams repeatedly about ToJ, the three white knights and Lyanna's death, those three things are connected. Two out of those three things are confirmed by his memories and I see no reason why the third thing should be disconnected. If Lyanna was never there, then the name "tower of joy" needs to be explained, we still don't know where Lyanna died and why the three KG hung out in the middle of nowhere or why Ned considered necessary to fight them. Localising the scene comes in one of the "as it had been in life" paragraphs, so I don't see what makes you think the location is false. - Though, you are right - it wasn't in Dorne but before it. The location of ToJ had already been stated, so no need to repeat it. He then goes on "Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.", by which he elaborates on the content of the dream without mentioning any discrepancy or problem with the location, so I don't see anything that would make the information from the dream invalid.
  15. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.165

    Indeed :-) There are a couple other similar instances, such as Ned mentioning that Rhaegar named the place "tower of joy", which is rather weird for a rape place unless one is called Ramsay, or when Robert's whoring brings Ned to musing whether Rhaegar possessed the same vice, which equals to comparing Lyanna's betrothed with her rapist, and that would be one hell of weird thinking on Ned's part. Not sure which way you are leaning here, but GRRM's response to what happened with Rhaegar's corpse was "he was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens." This, of course, brings about the question who called the shots to honor Rhaegar like that because it couldn't have been Robert. Methinks, the answer is Ned, and that would constitute another clue, IMHO. I hope that when TWOW come at the long last, we'll get some an infodump on the events preceding the Robellion, it's definitely long overdue.