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Ygrain

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About Ygrain

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    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

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    Czech Republic
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    Fantasy, history, Tolkien, Dragon Age, Mass Efect, fanfic
    gardening, embroidery,

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  1. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    True - but, IIRC, the King then lived the life of a normal child and never came into his inheritance.
  2. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    It was just an example of the way the swap could have been hinted at. Instead, there could have been an old drunkard boasting how, once in his miserable existence, he got to get drunk on arbor gold. - Again, just an example. There could have been something to connect the dots in retrospect. The lack of such hints doesn't mean that Aegon is necessarily fake, it means that he is suspicious, and intentionally written that way. --- One more thing: when Tywin found out that the baby's face had been disfigured and his identity thus uncertain, Pycelle would have been the one approached to confirm the identity. If the baby could be identified as Aegon with certainty, then Tywin had nothing to fear and Pycelle absolutely had to die. If the baby wasn't Aegon or Pycelle was unable to tell, the best course for Tywin would have been to swear Pycelle to silence and proclaim the baby Aegon, solidify his power, wait if Aegon ever comes up with his claim, and then have Pycelle proclaim him as an impostor. In the current situation, with Tywin dead and Cersei bringing house Lannister to ruin, the coward Pycelle might have been convinced to verify that Aegon is the real deal, so, IMHO, a living Pycelle would have been better for the cause. It has been argued that Pycelle was a trusted advisor for Cersei and therefore had to go, but I don't recall her paying much attention to his advice, and unlike Kevan, he had no means to rein her in. Either way, the fact that Pycelle was murdered might be pointing towards Aegon being fake, or Pycelle unsure of the baby's identity at best.
  3. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    The dichotomy that you presented, as if no other option was possible. The other way round then: why make the murdered baby unrecognisable, why invent the Blackfyres at all and why plant the mummer's dragon? "Only?" He's doing all kinds of things to rob her of sensible advice and allies. Dorne still - at least officially - suppors the IT. Right. It doesn't point one way or the other. Yep. But we should already have some concealed hints, here and there. Things that seemingly contradict, scattered bits of information here and there... so far, what we have from two independent sources (Barristan and Jaime) who were first-hand witnesses, is that Varys had a negative influence on Aerys and was fuelling his paranoia. Now, was he doing it in order to make Aerys intolerable for everyone, so that Rhaegar could swoop in and save the day? Or was he simply ingratiating himself to the king to gain more power for himself? Was he purposefully creating a volatile situation to bring down the Targaryens? And still: why so taken with the children? Lots of people speak fondly about Rhaegar and Barristan about Elia. Varys never does - why? What made Rhaenys and Aegon so special that made him care (if he did)? But you see Cat interact with other people, you know that she cares and sympathizes with a whole lot of them. We never, ever, see Varys care about anyone, the single person he seems to have a relationship is Illyrio. Why care about the two dragonling, ho easily could have grown up spoiled entitled brats? There were ears around, a whole lot of them, the little birds. Yeah, he should have shut up, whether telling the truth or a lie. But he didn't. People sometimes do things they know they shouldn't, they just succumb to their impulses. We just cannot be sure about the truth of it. Now, if you take as a starting premise that if you do talk, you should stay in your role even if you are alone, what does it say about Varys' little speech to the dying Kevan with witnesses around? That if he is following the rules of the game, he is inevitably lying. Is he following the rules? Dunno. Yes, that too. There are a couple more things, like complete lack of corroboration of the babyswap story from other sources. Compare to the babyswap at the Wall - Gilly is terribly distraught by something Jon told her, keeps crying a lot (whereas, Elia is holding onto a substitute while her own biological daughter is left alone.) We don't encounter a crazy woman wailing for a babe that was sold for arbor wine three books prior we learn about the Pisswater Prince.... nothing.
  4. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    A strawman. The scenarios can combine and recombine, with additional information and ulterior motives. Except that he planted a Highgarden coin after arranging Tyrion's escape to implicate the Tyrells. Why shouldn't he continue using the same strategy, perhaps even plant a few whispers around KL that revenge is coming for House Lannister? Propaganda is a powerful tool. You are allowed to have as many secret princes as you want, just like stunted dwarves, mothers of dragons, one-handed swordfighters... Sure he won't, he has taken quite a couple of pages from other history books, as well. But because there was a pretender - two, IIRC - it is possible that he might throw one in, as well. And why did he come to care about Rhaenys and Aegon? He didn't seem to be friends with Rhaegar or Elia, so why did he take to them? Besides, being cruel to some children really makes one doubt a person's ability to really care for other children. It is a universal rule how to behave as a schemer. If Varys is playing a role, then he should follow the same rules, the same safety precautions, just like those LF is passing on to Sansa in her role as Alayne. Sounded like good old gloating to me, it had to suck not to be able to talk about his grand plan which seemed to be so successfully under the way. The story may not be true, but it seems that there did exist a woman called Serra, whose looks were not very far from Targ. Ah, I see. And I meant that it doesn't point one way or the other for the reader.
  5. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    And why his actions would be different if Aegon was an impostor? Fake or real, in order to push Aegon on the IT, Varys needs to undermine the current powerholders. Personally, I lean towards Varys planning a covert Blackfyre restoration and fAegon being a Blackfyre pretendent in the female line, with Varys either a direct relative himself or supporting his friend Illyrio (Aegon's potential father, with Serra) I meant that someone paranoid (Cersei) might jump at the connection (or be conveniently whispered through some pawn). With the Myrcella situation and Sandsnakes heading to KL, yet another keg of gunpowder for her to explode. We don't. Therefore, we cannot claim that it was absolutely outside the realm of possibility for Varys to save the royal children, either. And since we have an example of another Master of Whisperers who did save the royal offspring in this way, one must needs ask why Varys didn't seem to give a shit and had to rely on a babyswap when, to his best knowledge, KL was about to go up in green flames and thus no corpses would be missed. Because we already have one secret prince, because the War of the Roses did have its pretenders, because Varys' supposed care for the royal children doesn't ring true in someone who uses mutilated children as his spies and because, as another schemer tells us, you must always keep your role, even when you are alone.
  6. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    Aye. So, does burning Mel point to the child being true or fake? It doesn't. Only if revenge was his singular motive for whatever he does. However, the way he talks about Aegon's upbringing, he wanted to create a perfect ruler. Besides... while the way Kevan and Pycelle were murdered might be a hint towards the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, it DOESN'T mean that Varys actually gives a shit. For all we know, he might have made this reference for someone to catch up on it and presume Dorne was somehow involved. It's Varys we are talking about here. If he did care for Rhaenys and Aegon so much, it was fully within his powers to take both children along with Elia into the tunnels before the walls were scaled.
  7. Ygrain

    Kevan and Pycelle’s death

    Does it? Because mimicking the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys might just as well be pointing towards them both being dead and thus fAegon. A good catch, OP!
  8. Honestly, I don't now. It would largely depend on the particular layout of the land and ability to be supplied, I guess. If the tower is situated well off the road, it might be a good hideout because no-one ever goes there and you have a view for miles and miles to see who's travelling, you just need to keep a low profile and make fire only at night so that the smoke doesn't draw attention. It would be virtually like, the darkest under the candlestick. However... an even better hideout would be just like in Ygritte's story - right where the Stark daughter disappeared from, which would be Harrenhal or its vicinity, like the Isle of Faces. Summerhall would be the next choice, I guess. That conversation is, IMHO, the most unreliable part of the dream. It is very conscise, very impactful piece of writing - people normally don't talk like that. It is possible that it was written solely for the benefit of the reader - listing all the places where the KG had legitimate business, to make us wonder what the heck they were doing there, being so determined about it. It is certainly not as reliable as a memory and the Eddard part is definitely the voice of Vayon Poole - however, the connection is established through Ned's responses. First, he states that the KG, the tower and Lyanna "in her bed of blood" belong together, that he had dreamt such dreams before. Next, when he hears someone utter his name with urgency in that situation, his subconsciousness automatically connects it to Lyanna. Third, his response to "Lyanna" in this situation is "I promise", which we do know from his memories is the response he gave her on her deathbed. - In other words, the fight with the KG at TOJ has a strong connection to Lyanna's death. Furthermore, the dream contains all the elements present in his memory of Lyanna's last moments in a room that smelled of blood and roses - there is blood-streaked sky, there is a storm of (blue) rose petals, and he says "I promise" - that imply that's the place. Agreed. I agree that Ned absolutely didn't have to deliver Dawn to Starfall in person but there are other options. First, it is not Lyanna who is at Starfall, Jon is, and the promise that Lyanna extracted was to go and claim Jon (in this scenario, the KG have to remain at ToJ not to draw attention to the reason of their being at Starfall, they protect Lyanna and prevent anyone from finding out she had a baby). Second, neither is at Starfall but Ned needs a pretext not to return to KL directly and he must keep Jon secret, so he takes a trip to return Dawn, so that he could hire a ship to send Jon North, while he himself travels to KL to report Lyanna's death to Robert, and no-one sees him with a baby. No need for special explanations, we know that Lyanna asked to be buried at Winterfell, so Ned didn't really have a choice in this.
  9. The occupants of the tower definitely had to be able to keep a low profile, not to attract the attention of travellers. If Ned had had no idea where Lyanna was, he had no reason to travel in such a light company through a potentially dangerous territory and go enquire in his own person. All good questions. You have left out the possiblity that Rhaegar himself might have left a clue. Perhaps not directly, or else Aerys might not have played nice, but Hightower might have been instructed to reach a particular place, from which Whent or Dayne took him to ToJ. With Ned, it is possible that Rhaegar might have left a message behind as a contingency plan, with Ethan Glover being the messenger (his presence at ToJ is rather baffling, IMHO, he supposedly spent the rebellion in KL dungeons). Also, it is not impossible that after the news of the Trident reached ToJ, it was Lyanna herself who reached out to her brother (leaving aside the particular of how for the time being) as the only person who might be able and willing to protect her.
  10. Just him and his besties, who he could trust not to babble about Lyanna's condition? Besides, Prince's Pass is on the way but the tower itself is not, it is on a ridge (quite logically, for a former watchout tower), no reason to go there if you're merely heading south. Funny that he was perfectly lucid when he woke up, though. He himself identified the dream about the tower, the KG and Lyanna in her bed of blood as one he had had before, and kept thinking about some elements of the dream even when awake. It is not a recording of what exactly went down but it is not psychedelic bullshit, either.
  11. Ygrain

    R+L=J v.166

    Not one I would know of. I think it is a part of the gradual reveal of the meaning of the blue roses - first just roses, then blue roses, then a garland of them, then a laurel, with an explanation that it is a crown. From what I can see about the use of the word laurel in the word search, GRRM doesn't use it often and only in connection with winning a tourney.
  12. Ygrain

    Qhorin Halfhand was Ser Arthur Dayne - Revisited.

    A question: if Arthur = Qhorin illustrates the main theme, why isn't it indicated in Qhorin chapters that he may not be just Qhorin? Plus, ever since his death, Qhorin hasn't been mentioned much, either, only the manner of his death to be held against Jon. This is not the way GRRM usually writes his mysteries - it startswith a hint here and there, followed by a steady influx of information gradually thickening into the reveal (basically, the three-step structure his editor talked about). I fail to see such a trail for Arthur = Qhorin.
  13. Ygrain

    Qhorin Halfhand was Ser Arthur Dayne - Revisited.

    Eh... look, I cannot claim to know what is in GRRM's heart when he writes his stories but me and a couple of friends write fanfics and themes are definitely not a major drive. I know for a fact that I didn't want to send any central message and I'm pretty sure neither did my closest friend. If you delved into our works, you would probably find certain motives, like a downward spiral that tough choices can do to a person, or how cultural background affects our perception and leads to misunderstandings, but in no way, shape or form did these affect the plot. The plot is always driven by the characters, their personality and motivation, and the story proceeds through their interaction with others, who themselves must be characters in their own right and not mere plot devices to preach a theme. My own motivation was to flesh out my gaming characters - why they do what they do, how their past affects them, and delve into the stuff that the game couldn't develop. Sure, I do not intend to place myself anywhere near GRRM. However, through my own experience in writing as well as literary studies, and through my own inclination, I am fairly sure that he pays a lot of attention to characterisation, which is why his characters, both major and minor ones, feel like real people. Arthur as Qhorin, while fitting a theme, sorely lacks in the character department deviates from the way GRRM writes characters, hence I don't believe they are one. That is a rather flat reading of Arthur Dayne. Even if it wasn't for the recurring sadness of his character, there is the rift between his vows, the lacking king to whom he is sworn, and his friendship to Rhaegar who is in oposition to his father, suggesting that Arthur must have been walking a very thin line not to betray any. We know from Jaime how conflicted he was about his vows seeing Aerys' atrocities, we see how Barristan comes to reevaluate his own actions. Arthur's arc ending in the ToJ fight is a tragic one. Herein, I believe, lies the trap - putting themes and messages above the story. They can be relayed through a story, but not to the detriment of its inner coherence.
  14. Ygrain

    What do people think about Rhaegar?

    It's actually Dany who suggests it was Elia's fault, I don't see Barristan's response as blaming her. He is simply aware that Rhaegar wasn't in love with her Yes, Barristan admits that thousands died because of Rhaegar's infatuation with Lyanna. Doesn't prevent him from thinking that Rhaegar would have been the finest king of those he knew. Perhaps because Rhaegar is only one in the line of those who chose love over duty.
  15. Ygrain

    Qhorin Halfhand was Ser Arthur Dayne - Revisited.

    Arthur and Qhorin as separate characters do have their plot functions. Arthur/Qhorin does not because there is a complete disconnection between his life as Arthur and as Qhorin. It's as if he never existed as Arthur, Arthur's life experience - and failures - do not feature anywhere in Qhorin's life, do not become activated even during his encounter with a PoV character related to Arthur's past.
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