R + L = J v.167 in General (ASoIaF) Posted August 29, 2020 On 8/26/2020 at 6:36 PM, LynnS said: The only person who is being coy here is yourself. You dissemble, obfuscate and make up a lot of stuff, just to keep this idea afloat. Cast the beam out of your own eye, before before accusing me. In other words, there is no piece of text you can offer stating or at least suggesting the lack of water and wood at ToJ. On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said: Just because a dream is old it is still a dream. I dream a lot of things that are very real in my dream, but never happened in the reality (?) I wake up in. And do you keep dreaming about the same elements connected to a real event all the time? Lyanna in the bed of blood does not actually appear in the dream, yet Ned still lumps her in as a part of what the dream is about. On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said: The events are connected in Ned's dream, it seems to be a safe conclusion that Lyanna died after the fight at the ToJ. An hour or a day or a week ...? We do not know. And this matters how? Even if she persisted a couple of days after the fight, which is certainly not impossible, it would still be the place where she died. On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said: There needs to be an explanation why Ned gave Lyanna's bones to the silent sisters, but not the bones of his friends. Lyanna dying (a little) later in another location might be a good explanation. First, it is in no way a given that it was SS who treated Lyanna's bones. Second, even if Lyanna died elsewhere, Ned could still arrange for the SS to be sent to ToJ - unless the time needed for fetching them was actually much longer than for arranging the burial that he did give them and the corpses would start to decompose, (which is really not something you want to do to your friends and esteemed enemies.) Also, arranging for Lyanna's remains to be transported is not a matter of choice for Ned, he promised it, so he had to do whatever it took to fulfill that promise, even travelling with her body already rotting (unless there were some ingredients that could prevent or at least slow the decay, which definitely wouldn't be available in the amounts needed for all the other eight bodies). I still think cremation would be easiest, but again - collecting enough fuel for one pyre is way easier than for eight more. On 8/28/2020 at 10:52 AM, SerTarod said: What is the evidence (your emphasis) that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy? My reading of the story is that Lyanna is placed there because Ned, in his fever dream, thinks/dreams of Lyanna after the battle against the Kings Guard. A little correction: Lyanna is placed there because Ned states that he repeatedly dreams about her, the fight with the KG and the tower. 18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: If Lyanna was at Starfall, I think the sequence is: 1. Ned learns from some source that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, and that Lyanna's child was taken from her to the tower of joy. 2. Ned travels with a guide who knows the location of the tower of joy. I would guess Howland. 3. Ned rescues Jon from the tower of joy and brings Jon back to Starfall to be reunited with Lyanna. Returning Dawn was a cover story for the reason for his trip to Starfall. 4. The death bed scene with Lyanna occurred after Ned arrived at Starfall with Jon. No extra step, no double travel, and it explains why Ned would take such a dangerous trip through enemy territory with a baby in tow, as opposed to getting the babe to safety and then sending Dawn back to Starfall via ship. It also does away with the very ackward scenario of Ned travelling a great distance through the mountains carrying his dead sister. Really the "return of Dawn" makes no sense. It doesn't rise to a level of importance for Ned to travel through the Mountains with a baby and with a dead sister. Dawn could have always been sent with a formal peace party at a later date. The only part here I can agree with is that "return of Dawn" is totally a coverup. The rest doesn't really make sense. Why take newborn Jon to ToJ, where you lack the resources and it is close to Robert's territory, from Starfall, where you can easily arrange the care and transport to safety? And if you take him from Lyanna, why would you inform her where you are going to hide? If both Jon and Lyanna are at ToJ, you still need to get Jon away and you cannot return to KL or your forces exactly from there because you wouldn't convince anyone that he is your baby. You need to put time and place between Jon and ToJ, as well as yourself - if you have been gone for months, there are tons of possibilites where you might have picked him (personally, I'd ask Howland to take a ship and bring Jon North where I might pick him somewhere along the way, while I travel back to KL, with Lyanna's bones, to give Robert a shoulder to cry on. No baby, no suspicions). If Ned turns up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon, no-one has an idea that he had gone to find Lya or what he had been doing prior, so they have no reason to question if the baby is his. If Ran's theory about Jon at Starfall is correct, then the scenario works even better - Ned goes to "return Dawn" and pick his natural son, and the Daynes cannot really refuse him. And since Wylla arrived well before him, no connection to the ToJ events there.