Morte

Thank you very much for this. Her betrothal to Hizdahr is the reason she spurns Quentyn. Yes, Quentyn is a nice guy (I really like him as a character), and would be a good match for Dany, even though she doesn't knows this at that time, but he is too late - and alone. That's the reasons Dany rejects him, not Quaithe or his looks. This factors might have played a role in hypothetical scenarios in which she doesn't think her only way to keep the "peace" is to marry Hizdahr, with an army in front of her city. Had Quentyn come to a truly peaceful Meereen, or with an army to lift the siege, the situation might have been different, but he did not. Beside, even with the situation being as it is, she still shows him the dragons - so no, she might be cautious because of Quaithe's prophesy, but not paranoid or cold toward Quentyn, so she even might have married him, or at least considered his a fitting suitor, had there been the possibility.

Because, if this is really GRRMs ending, he simply did not understand Dune. Not one little bit of it This. I still interpret the things, one could (maybe) take from the show as happening in the books as follows: - Dany being taken away by Drogon = she does indeed leave at the end, realising that Westeros isn't her home, Essos is. So after helping with the long night she and her armies go back home. - Jon going into the wild = he doesn't take any crown, because he is the Lord Commander of the Night Watch, and he has an institution to rebuild into something useful and functional, and has responsibilities toward the Wildlings as well. - Bran becomes a Greenseer, so he will most likely end up connected to the trees, but because of his position as the first Greenseer known again to the realm since a very long time, he will be spiritual guide and magical adviser, his throne will be the trees - Sansa will end up as Lady of Winterfell or Lady of the Earie, imho Who will sit the Iron Throne in the end? Well, how about Aegon? Or Shireen? Or Shireen and Aegon?

Yes, it is. It's an atrocity and - as I already said - I think it gets worse by the "Dragon's Wroth" being nothing but personal revenge, and - as @SeanF said - a real stain upon Aegon's and his sister's record. And I have to thank you for your clear and rational questioning my answers. It seems civil conversations are still possible on the internet. Completely agreeing with your interpretation of the Harrying of the North. I think Martin did not quite get it right how this would have been seen and - especially - their horror phrased by contemporary chronologists (we have the same refusal one can see from Orderic Vitalis to justify atrocities in certain chronologists of the crusades, they are rightly very harsh and direct in their phrasing), so the whole First Dornish War imho reads too harmless in F&B. And with the burning of the countryside Aegon, too, would have failed his duty as king to his subjects, which he has even toward the Dornish, even if he first has to conquer them to rule.

Because the first sentence of your definition is the most important, as it tells the difference between genocide and any other atrocity - the intent. All of the physical elements listed are there to achieve the mental element: to destroy a group of people because of what and who they are "as such", without a way for them to convince the aggressor otherwise, without a place where the aggressor would leave them alone if getting hold of them. It's not about conquest, it's not about stupid hurt noble pride or revenge, mass murderous war tactics, scorched-earth policy, "making an example" (this sounds so harmless in English, I mean it in the sense of "pour encourager les autres"), or that else horrible ideas humanity had and has - genocide is about destroying people because they are, for no other reason. I just wanted to say that one should be cautions to use the term for every atrocity one finds especially horrible, to not water the term down until people no longer are able to see how horrible an act genocide truly is. I think it would be better to use the term mass murder with the appropriate contempt. I know it's not that's why I put 'just' in quotations. I know. Just wanted to emphasize your true statement.

That's why I said it's difficult to use it (and one maybe should not) on warfare in such a setting (mediaeval fantasy world, philosophically on the level of ... say, the Pliocean). It is a very brutal conquesting war of Dorne, that's why they are killing Dornish, but would they continue if Dorne would yield? Would Dornish be used as cattle? Forbitten higher education? Culled into special quarters? Do they start the war because the Dornish are Dornish? What would have happened, had Dorne gone the "Northern Way"? Would they still try to kill them? Would there be a war? Would there be killing/harnessing/oppression against the Dornish people? Or would it be like everywhere else? That we do have is idiotic hurt noble pride because the people were fighting back effectively and did not bent. And after the - actually very impressive - killing of Meraxes and Rhaenys, it got personal and the horrible atrocities done by Aegon and Visenya can actually be seen as petty revenge. Which - for me, personal - makes them worse than 'normal' war crimes, as their only reason is to hurt the other because someone hurt the siblings on a personal level. Unfortunately such revenge was quite common in feudal societies. No, it isn't, the definition you stated above is actually pretty clear and good, as it also covers genocide within a country/without war. And it is never "just" mass murder, "just" war crimes, "just" atrocities. It's also never "just" war.

So it does fit. Sorry, but because this is getting way too close to historical revisionism for my liking, I have to interfere. You put the emphasis on the wrong parts, the emphasis is: Without the intent to destroy a group of people as such, because they are who they are, it's not genocide, it's mass murder atrocities, war crimes, etc. I know that the phrasing became blurry in the past decades, but it is imho important to remember where the blur is originally coming from: From Alt- and Neonazis trying to frame the Shoa as "nothing special" or "not that bad", because others have killed just as many or more people. Just remember: War crimes, mass murder, atrocities don't become less horrible just because one can't mint them as genocide. Inflationary using it on mediaeval or ancient warfare (with or without dragons) takes the historical revisionism even farther than it inventors dared. There is no need to water down the therm, by doing it, one just makes genocide look less horrible than it is. So. Sorry - and thank you.

I agree that the POVs of JonCon (and Tyrion as well as Quentyn) are in line with the theme of the book, they are indeed dancing with the dragons, and Quentyn even with both human and animal, but feel incomplete because of the ending. But I especially agree with the bolded part, because every time I read Daenerys' last chapter, I get the notion that we have a time-asynchrony again, as if not as many days have passed in Daenerys' POV, as have in Meereen and Westeros, because she is still alive and strong enough to walk and stand even without clean water to drink and a serious diarrhoea, so imho she can't be out there for longer then a few days, maximum a week. If that is the case, it would have been better if this would have been solved in the same book, and I very much think that it would come naturally with the two battles and Arianne meeting Aegon included in ADwD.

I think it is more or less complete, of course some locations might change and some people move somewhere else, expect maybe: You were right to hesitate, as I, too, wouldn't call it a storyline area, as it plot-important habitants are essentially all spread around the globe at this moment. And while I like the Reader a lot, I really hope no storyline splits in a way, that would make people go to the Iron Isle too soon, as this would cost us another bunch of pages we don't have.

Even if Martin does somehow manage to get back to the pacing of ASOS, there are so many plots hanging in midair now, that it will at the very least take TWoW to get to a point, at which Dany can leave Essos without it feeling rushed. And all the other storylines are also in (dire) need of space to be told, as @Lord Varys pointed out, not even Aegon can be dealed with in just two JonCon and three Arianne chapters without looking like a filler. There is so much that has to happen, that we are running out of pages with just two books left. Of course, and story-wise you are right. The question is, whether GRRM is able and willing to deliver.

The easiest answer would be, that he wanted to deconstruct the topos of the perfect promised prince, groomed to rule and oh so perfect. But beside that: I agree. One could even hypothesise that with the threat of the Others (solved or not) they might even end the dance the way it should have been done the last time: the hard way, by negotiations. I'm afraid we will not get another (eighth) book, or if, than just because he messed up and kept the pace of ADwD. I don't know if he can wrap things up well enough to not make it look cheap.

Yes, but as you might remember (it's been some time, since we last talked about this), I'm not sure the Dance of the Dragons Part Two will ever take place in the sense of a real conflict. We already had a Dance with Dragons, and a lot of characters are still dancing it, some not even started to join, so: If Martin is not making people sit on their hands for a whole book while at the same time a lot of things is happening in other POVs, I think that Dany will "miss" most of the game of thrones played in Westeros, seeing how much she has to do in Essos before moving West. I would find it very plausible if she would even only come because of the Others and the role she and the dragons have to play in that conflict according to the things Marwyn & Co. will tell her. Yes, of course. It's just that we will see this in TWoW or the very beginning of ADoS - or we would need another book, because else we are running out of pages for solving the conflict.

That is all very optimistic considering the size of the story. That's why I said it's the earliest moment. Imho it could be doable if the chapters in Essos were as fast paced as in the first two books, but even than it would cut heavily into the page count, leaving less space for the other characters. That's why I find it more likely to happen in the Prologue or one of the first chapters in ADoS (something like: the first ships are seen emerging on the horizons by a POV on Dragonstone). Oh, it will not be a surprise for the reader, and maybe not even all the characters, but if it comes down because of something stupid (like a sacrifice or something), it will hit some of the characters like a truck. I think we will have a lot of build up for whatever has to happen on the Wall, reaching it climax in either the last chapter of TWoW, it's Epilogue or the Prologue of ADoS (or else we would really need another book ). GRRM could do something like this, ignoring everyone and every plot built up in Essos, or solving it all with one chapter of deus ex machina, but it would not be... how to put it? ... the best writing.

No chance for that. I agree. The only way this could (maybe, big maybe) work - or at least could work in the way that Dany would return only a short time after the battle - would be, if the timelines of the POVs had already diverged a very, very great deal in ADwD. Like, say, if Dany's POV in the Grass Sea would be just days, maximum two weeks after the events at the Pits, while the other POVs have moved two or more months at the same time. But this would only "save" this specific scene, it would not make Dany go to Westeros any quicker, as everybody has already pointed out, and multiple times, and not only here, that she has to get the Dothraki to trust and follow her. I agree here with @SeanF that there must be a trial so the Dosh Khaleen will recognize her as their leader. Then they all have to reach Meereen, have to meet and talk to people, Marwyn (and maybe Quaithe - I like your idea, that she will be waiting for Dany, @Lord Varys, this would be a nice way to speed thing up, a tiny bit) has to convince Dany and everybody that Shit is hitting the fan in Westeros (maybe the Dosh Khaleen would even have seen something it that direction, too)... And than we have to talk about Volantis, because even if Dany doesn't move against Quarth, I think Volantis and Pentos will definitely fall to her. So I think we will at best see her ships arrive in Westeros in the Epilogue of TWoW, while the Wall coming down (or being overrun) in TWoW is imho most likely the major event in the book, contrasted by the petty games about the "iron chair" in the south. I wouldn't be surprised if the Wall falls in the Epilogue of an already very bleak book (or two chapters before that and the Epilogue shows us people fleeing South), and we see Dany's armada in the Prologue of ADoS.