Hedge Lawyer

I voted an 8, rounded down from 8.25.

The Meeren, Eyrie, and duel scenes were fantastic. The Moat Cailin scene was also well done.

I could do without the Grey Worm love subplot. The beetles conversation was entertaining and well acted, but probably should have been shortened in the editing process.

Sigh. This again. Jaime would've never lived to see the morning. Karstark was right there in camp, stirring-up trouble, as opposed to off with Robb like in the book. If anything, the way the show did it makes more sense, not less, than her letting him go in some desperate (and probably misguided) hope that it'll get her the girls back. She know, for a fact, that if the Karstarks kill him, the girls are dead meat.

What's with the condescension? Your explanation doesn't exactly hold water. Jaime killed Karstark's son- in the book and in the show- long before Cat let him loose. Karstark could have murdered him long before. Karstark was in Riverrun in the book while Jaime was prisoner, after the Whispering Woods, yet didn't kill him. He didn't, because he was obeying Robb. In the book, Karstark goes psycho after Cat releases Lannister.

Cat's rationale for releasing Jaime has nothing to with Karstark, and there's no absolute logic dictating that but for Cat's releasing him, he would have undoubtedly killed Jaime. It's a stretch.

Cause otherwise it isn’t believable that Robb would get himself hitched to somebody he’s fighting against. The Westerlings are Lannister bannerman, after all. So the showrunners needed to find a way to make it believable. If he doesn’t think of her as an enemy, then maybe he can toss her a bone without fearing it’ll get nipped off by filed-down teeth.

GRRM made it work in the book- the Westerlings were a family that used to be the power in the Westerlands before the rise of the Lannisters. Honestly, it's a stretch either way.

I generally don't complain about the show's changes (I actually prefer some of them- e.g. the new and improve Qarth story), but I'm a little troubleed / concerned about a few:

1. No mention of Tyrion's giant chain? How will there be a Blackwater without the chain? Even if it's there, the build-up to the chain was one of the best parts of ACoK, and it really showed Tyrion's brilliance.

2. I didn't like Cat setting Jaime free before hearing of Bran and Rickon. It was the supposed death of her two sons that spurred her to free Jaime in the book. Freeing him before hearing of their deaths doesn't make as much sense. It seems out of character. Her act in the book was pure desparation. Here, there was no basis for such a rash act.

3. Why make Jeyne from Volantis?

For sheer entertainment, 9/10 again - it's just so gripping, even if you've read the books. This series has really gone up a notch in the second half (so far).

I don't feel too strongly about the changes because they've been relatively well written in. Alton dying worked pretty well, that was a strong scene. In fact, this was the first episode where I'd say almost every scene was acted absolutely superbly. Perhaps one too many Ygritte-Jon scenes but I'm glad they're developing that relationship. I have a real thing for Ygritte - she's uh... feisty. ;) She reminds me of girls from Scotland (where I'm from), so that's probably why. I again loved Tywin-Arya, even if they need to get moving a bit with that storyline.

Qarth worked out well, I just dunno what happened really. It was wonderfully creepy though. Theon gets A+ again. Um, what else... yeah, no I couldn't find much to complain about. I'm sure a bunch of you will though haha.

I agree with this.

I gave the episode a 9- it made an hour seem like 10 minutes. I know that the show is deviating from the books, in some cases pretty significantly, but the show holds up. I think having GRRM involved makes the differences still feel believable. I think that I like show Cersei better than book Cersei (and I like book Cersei), and I know that I like show Qarth better than book Qarth. Dany's story is much more interesting in the show that it was in ACoK. Ygritte is pitch perfect.

The show keeps me wanting more. I look forward to each episode.

I got chills and I sure hope Tywin did as well!! do we know who any of the council members are supposed to be? besides the one Lannister that gets kicked back to lannisport? I'm trying to remember when Kevan pops up and if he's been casted yet

Kevan was in season one, and he was at the council meeting in this episode IIRC.

I'd give it an 8 to 8.5. Another quality episode. My only problem with it was that it once again crammed too much into a single episode.

Am I the only one who is glad that they're apparently cutting the Reeds? I never liked them in the books, especially creepy little Jojen. Giving Bran Jojen's greendreams and sending him north with Osha is a good way to simplify the story for tv without cutting too much important detail.

ME TOO! I was strangely relived to see it just be used for beating. I think that would be too far...even for HBO.

My wife and I said the same thing!

I'm not so sure that he's that much more sadistic in the show. He's fucked up in the book, he enjoyed shooting people with his crossbow.

The book never implied that Joff was sexually aroused by torture. This scene did, IMO. Book Joff was sadistic, but TV Joff is off the charts.

Ok, so I get that there's a hell of a lot of backstory to get through here, but "I've loved you since I was a little boy"? Seriously? Littlefinger is CUNNING. That's his single defining characteristic. Sure, he's lovelorn, but that's a secondary trait to how god damn clever he is. He's supposed to be the Cheshire Cat of Westeros. Clever, creepy, snarky, but undeniably lovable. But, the writers keep giving him the most obtuse lines. "I've loved you since I was a little boy"?! Gag much?

A clever man does not confess to a grieving widow who definitely already knows that he loves her. A clever man makes himself indespensible to her, perhaps by saving her children. Or, a cleverer, less sweet man, marries her sister while manipulating her very similar, but younger and hotter daughter into his grasp.

For a story that relies so heavily on identifying where characters have merit along with human or even monsterous flaws, the show writers are really failing Petyr. They seem to think that his love for Cat is sympathetic? I never felt that. I always saw that aspect of him as a pathetic carryover from childhood that he resented. The best part of him was that he's a small lord of no significant birth or fortune, and yet had managed to gain hold of Harrenhal and the Eyrie, and perhaps soon the rest of the Vale (And then, of course, the world. Bwahahaha.) Name ONE other character who is that successful in that time frame. Seriously, I think Bolton's Bastard might be the only real comparision in upward-movement. Also when he pushed Lysa out the door. Who didn't love him dearly then?

I mean, I see what they're doing. They're setting him up as sympathetic so that when he steals away Sansa and does various other deeds, it can be seen as done by a man suffering from chronic heartbreak. I just though LF was made of sterner, more guiling stuff.

I agree. That line was the worst thing about this episode for me. Book LF would never have said it. TV LF isn't as cunning as book LF. In the book, LF is a brilliant operator and financier, personally keeping the kingdom afloat finacially. This doesn't come accross on TV, where the character is much more hamhanded. That said, he's perfectly cast/

I liked the Joffrey/whores scene. It established that t.v. Joffrey is more of a sadist than book Joffrey. As someone else said, he's a teen boy given two beautiful women to do with what he wishes, and he chose to torture them. I thought that it was a statement scene for his character. Not a bad addition IMO.

I'm 99.99% sure that the "Volantis" girl is Jeyne Westerling.

To me, this was the second best episode of the season behind episode 3, and I get the feeling that things are really going to start picking up next week.

Also, I liked the Joffrey and the whores scene. It firmly established his sadism in a way that even the Sansa scene didn't- after all, he's always held a grudge against Sansa since the incident with Micah, and he hates the Starks in general. The fact that he passed up sex to torture prostitutes that never did anything to him shows Joff in an even dimmer light. Joff is basically Ramsey Bolton level evil on the show, whereas he wasn't quite that bad in the book.

I'd give it an 8.5, but I voted 8. Very good all around, but a bit disjointed (as with most of this season, things feel rushed because they're trying to fit to much in to single episodes- I really think that they should have done at least 12 episodes this season). I like Littlefinger proposing the Jaime for the girls trade; it will make Cat's release of Jaime seem a bit more rational.

I loved the quick intro to Roose Bolton. Tyrion once again stole the show. I can't wait for next week.

P.S.- bring back the original Mountain! Hopefully he'll be available again and reclaim the role. If the series makes it to his duel with the Viper, then I want the original Mountain fighting it in all of his glory.

Just when I was starting to get worried about this season, episode 3 won me back. I'd rate it 9.5. It was outstanding, easily the best of season 2 so far IMO, and better than almost all of the first season. I love the way that it stuck so close to the spirit of the book while simultaneously making significant changes (e.g. compressing about 5 Arya chapters into one brilliant scene). They even redeemed some of episode 2 by taking the opportunity to better explain Yara's motivation in her ride with Theon. I think the thing that made this episode so great is that the individual scenes were longer. The disjointedness of the first 2 episodes wasn't an issue here.

I'm very much looking forward to episode 4- maybe they'll finally do justice to Stannis & Davos .

Um, no. In standard UK English, this is the second series. Each series has ten episodes.

What is it in standard Australian English?

It's a show written by Americans, adapted from a series of novels written by an American, produced by an American cable station, being discussed on a forum headed by an American, so don't be surprised if people discuss the show in American terms using American nomenclature. If this were Dr. Who or Fawlty Towers or something, then you'd have more of a point. I didn't intend to insult British fans- I didn't know the alternate British usage. It was a language barrier issue. Abifer understood that, so I don't see why you're defensive about it.

I hope that if the series lasts long enough the writers will give serious consideration to dramatically eliminating many of the narrative threads and characters from Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons. These are the two weakest books in the series, almost qualifying as narrative failures. I don't know how they can be integrated into a compelling cinematic story.

Bottomline: we who love the books need to give the writers plenty of slack. They need the freedom to make a successful adaptation, which probably means more departures from the source material, not less.

I think that they'll have to drastically change AFFC and ADWD to make a T.V. show out of it. I can't see them having Dany sit around Meereen for two season, I can't see them devoting time to making Briene and Victarion and Quentyn Martell and Areo Hotah and Griff and all the others into feature characters on the show. I wouldn't be surprised to have them do away with the Euron/Victarion and the Dorne threads altogether.

I think that seasons 3 and 4 (if there is one) are going to be based off of ASOS. If there's a season 5, I see it being dramatically different from the books.

Yes. You have touched on my single serious criticism of the second season. I am not a purist when it comes to TV/movie adaptations of novels. Novels and film are two very different mediums. Most importantly, Martin's Song of Fire and Ice novels are particularly convoluted and unwieldy ... and long. Successful adaptation of these books will require often drastic creative decisions, including changes to the narrative, creation of new characters, and changes to the established characters. This is all expected. We cannot rightly expect faithfulness in all the details. If we who know the novels (I've read them all twice) are going to enjoy the HBO series, we must find a way to bracket what we know and to enjoy the series on its own terms. This is difficult to do, I know.

I'm beginning to fear that the show already can't handle the books. By ACoK,the story is already too spread out, with too many viewpoint characters at too many different places, for the show to be able to present with nuance.

HBO either should have given Season 2 15 episodes instead of 10, or HBO should have more drastically changed the story from the beginning to be able to present a more focused and narrow story. For instance, they could have written Renly and Loras out of the story from the beginning and had Stannis at King's Landing in season 1. He could have then left for Dragonstone after King Robert's death, and he could have began Season 2 with the support of the Stormlands and plotting to attack King's Landing. That way, people would know who Stannis is, and Season 2 could have focused on developing him.

As it is, the show feels too disjointed to me. HBO is taking the middle path- trying to stick as closely to the books as possible within the alloted 10 episodes- and it's feeling over-compressed, rushed, and shallow. My non-reader friends don't really even know who Stannis is, given that he has received about 5 minutes of screentime so far (2 of which had him hunched over and grunting on top of Mel). Blackwater isn't going to be impressive if no one knows or cares who Stannis is.

I don't buy that he was "full on fingering her." Dude would have to have some awfully long fingers. I've watching it 3 times and it was pretty clear to me he got his fingers just below her pants; not to be vulgar, but he mighta felt bush, but no clit. He wasn't far enough in there. Where I think the scene failed was in cutting some of the flirty banter between the two when he thought she was the shipwright's wife.

We can debate his technique, but ultimately your last sentence underscores the problem with the scene. HBO didn't set it up- it just looked like Yara was relaxing and letting her brother grope her for her pleasure. There was little hint of Yara's goal in that scene- to take the measure of Theon and, once she decided on his worth (or lack thereof), her decision to humiliate him. She squeezed him, but not out of her lust or her desire. In the show, she just reclines and lets the magic happen. It was disappointing to me ( a reader) and confusing to non-readers. It just looked like another random incest scene.

He wasn't grunting with ecstasy, he was grunting with effort. That's not a terribly conducive position for sex.

What? It's not like he was holding her or lifting her up- she was sprawled back on the table. It didn't look like such a stressful position that you'd be grunting from exertion after two or three pumps. Regardless, I think that they could've built up Stannis more before having him hunched over and grunting. That, coupled with his gasping "a son," It just made him seem like a desperate, lecherous weirdo. Stannis is one of my favorites from the series, and so far the show isn't doing him justice.

Terrible Stannis scenes. Stannis having sex with Mel, fine. Grunting with ecstasy as he does it? Not fine. And the hopeful "A son!?" line...so un-Stannis like it made me cringe.

Exactly.

I know I am comparing what I see in this season to what I saw last season from a quality perspective and I believe others are as well, so we have 12 episodes to compare.

Exactly- hence the word "series" rather than "season." There have been twelve episodes in the series, and I think that this was the worst episode of the 12.

I gave it a six. If I could do so, I'd give it a 6.5.

There were three scenes that I didn't think were well done (Theon & Yara on horseback, the brothel scene, and the Stannis / Mel sex scene).

The good scenes were undermined to a certain extent by the disjointed feel of jumping between the many POVs.

It was enjoyable, but I think that it was the worst episode yet.

She squeezed his package numerous times in the book, even once at a feast after she'd revealed she was his sister. I fail to see the difference.

In the book, the squeezing was clearly in the context of Asha mocking Theon. Besides, she was squeezing in the book. Theon was doing far more than squeeing or quickly grabbing Yara on the show. He was full on fingering her. It was not equivalent to Asha's squeezing- rather, it would be like if Asha was j*cking him off in the book. It went a level farther on the show than in the book, and it was made worse because it was basically stripped from the context.

The show turned a funny scene of overconfident, somehwat delusional Theon being humiliated by his crafty sister into another creepy incest scene. Yara looked like she wanted sexual gratification from Theon despite knowing that he was her brother. That completely misses the point of the scene in the book. HBO botched the scene. I don't remember many (if any) scenes from Season 1 that I thought were poorly done. I can think of several poorly done scenes from Season 2 and we're only two episodes in.

Yes! Thank you! Why did we need to see Theon banging some rando in the bowels of a ship?

As others pointed out, that was in the book. He led her on the entire trip, used her for her body, and then abandoned her to her fate. It was used to show Theon shallowness and lack of character. I actually thought that that scene was well done on the show.