James Arryn

Aside from my usual issue with Renly, I thought the Joff scene was a bit over the top. I admit that it might seem that way because readers already know who/what he is, and maybe viewers need it made more evident. And I need to keep reminding myself that these aren't the books, so that every departure doesn't seem so annoying. Of the departures today, Cat's performance with Ned's bones was awesome. And Charles Dance can pack more electricity in 90 seconds of screen time than anyone else in the show. The opening scene with Robb/Grey Wind was awesome. I liked the idea of seeing Robb from his enemy's POV. A kind of frightening looking young warrior at home with the wild night, a preternatural skill at warfare, and a huge fucking direwolf. If you hadn't read he books with a Stark POV as the foundation, Robb could easily look like the scary bad guy.

That's up there with 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much' as most misquoted Shakes lines. I'm only bitching because I played Hamlet and Well (Horatio). And because I've been house painting all night. Sorry.

Well, all I can say is we read this very differently. I think he's contrasting action vs. accountability, which was the subject they were all kind of talking about. I didn't get the first part as indicating distaste or whatever at all. Right, is my point. It's an important part of medieval statecraft. It is one of the most reliable methods of winning popularity. It's the equivlent of modern commercials/billboards, etc. Again, none of these are considered good at statecraft, if they're involved in it at all. And Robert wasn't known for dressing particularly one way or another that I can recall. ? Disagree. Think about the notion of pure white cloth in that age. And what that means, in a practical sense. 'More'? You may be right, but I can't recall examples, but I would say the same is true for Tywin, Jaime, etc. Unless there is some benefit to huge heavy red cloaks or golden or enameled armor. Agreed. And as noted re: Theon, that's not a feminie/gay thing, it's a Westerosi thing. I don't think we can discount how unreliable Stannis is as a source for this kind of thing. Not that I think he's lying, but that his standards are recognized as abnormal for his time/status.

Can't speak to source, just the consistency with the other aspects. Yeah, but was wasn't that meant more in the passive context, as in how tourney are like feasts? Can you give me the context? I don't agree. Look at the list of great warriors. Jaime's golden armor, Tywin dresses magnificently. Pretty much every great Targ/Blackfyre warrior dressed to excess. You're applying modern standards...where dressing to impress (in certain cultures/areas) can connote homosexual or effeminate leanings...with medieval ones, wherein it was pretty much the standard way for nobility to outwardly distinguish themselves, and the monarchs/nobles who were considered great at public relations were almost always considered to place a high priority on how they dressed.

Again, I don't think 'this society' is homophobic, or even really makes exclusionary sexual definitions. Most societies didn't in history. Really only beginning with Judeo-Christian and then onto Muslim cultures. We tend to misunderstand this...as in, other cultures were 'ok' with being gay, or more 'tolerant' or whatever, when the point is tolerance or being ok with it never really came up. It wasn't an issue, and being gay wasn't an either/or thing. It would be discussed only in terms of how different manifestations of heterosexuality are discussed now; promiscuity vs. chastity, dominant vs. submissive, etc. Not 'are you gay or are you straight' and the acceptance or rejection of the former. And in that Westeros wasn't ever influenced by Judeo-Christianity, my sense is they don't really draw hard lines there either. Not in the books. For example, Oberynn's fairly open bisexuality doesn't seem to cause any confusion for failure to conform to one group or another. It's mentioned like any other taste.

Wenching, food and drink, yeah, but even Renly's wiki description mentions that he enjoys fighting (tourneys) and hunting. That's what I mean. Much more a man's man in the classical sense than in the sense they chose to emphasize.

In the book, I agree.

I think you are completely misunderstanding my point. Which is not that being gay contradicts being martial. Military history is pretty much my primary field...I know the illusory modern stereotype. My point is that the image of homsexuals being soft and the alteration in Renly's character in the show go step in step in the same direction, leading to the same stereotype of flamboyant, sensitive but ultimately weak/soft homosexual.

No time to surf the text, but just from his wiki: "Renly enjoys tournaments and hunting but isn't driven by the passion for food, drink, or wenching, as Robert Baratheon came to be...He performed well in the Tourney of the Hand, losing to the Hound, Sandor Clegane..." And there's also the discussion about him on the morning of battle, anything but nervous, but instead completely at ease and confident. And the first time we see him he brazenly and openly laughs at the heir to the throne...for being disarmed by a girl. Something which would only amuse a certain kind of man so much. You can't help but note the contrast, and its all in one direction. From someone who enjoys hunting and tourneys and fights well, to someone who is afraid of blood, offended by hunting, and nervous at the mention of war. In the book he is very much a warrior king type, he just has more going on besides that, and hasn't been alive for any real warfare yet.

Renly competes in tourneys and acquits himself well, never remotely displays fear of battle or blood, etc. It's a stark contrast. Re: the peach, I think we read that differently. He's always lighthearted, but that wasn't a sign of weakness, imo. It was complete confidence. No, again, the pregnancy thing was said with complete confidence; he's contrasted with Stannis, not defensive. And the Rainbow thing? I think GRRM has specifically stated that he didn't remotely think of that as a gay sign...it was the seven colors, and reflected Renly's love of pageantry and willingness to create his own traditions. And more, the disbelief everyone has of the 'official' status of Margary's pregnancy can only be down to a belief that Renly was at least bisexual.

To a degree, but within the confines of the show we've seen him engaged in 3 fights. 1 he wins by cheating, 1 he gets saved by the Hound, 1 he gets beaten by Brienne. It's pretty in line with the book in terms of results, but the emphasis is different. The cheating is more of a possibility in the book, in the show it's an explanation. The Hound thing I think played out fairly, but he looked more like a scared kid than I imagined in the book, and from what I recall in the fight with Brienne...and this may be faulty memory...but I seem to recall Brienne's bullrush as a kind of desparate last gasp, that Loras was pretty much winning before she caught him off guard with that, and there was an implication that that, like the Mountain joust, was possibly borderline behavior, which contrary to the Loras aspect is downplayed in the show. (Yeah, just checked the text. It's explicit. Loras was very much winning the fight and Brienne's bullrush was a desperate last gasp, after Loras had disarmed her, and comments were made about it being a 'vile trick'. I'm not even saying it was, but the contrast is again there...both fights have insinuations about tricks; Loras' is made explicit and unchallenged, Brienne's is unmentioned. And, beyond that, much secondary stuff is made about the Knight of Flowers being an acknowledged prodigy with arms, whereas here the secondary stuff mostly deals with him being popular with the girls. And his personality comes off a little more petulant and whiny than in the book, where he's mostly arrogant but gallant. So in general I'd say that while I agree with you that in contrast with Renly, Loras is portrayed as brave, warrior, etc. even that is diminished in contrast with the book, and looked at together they are much less than they were in the text.

Yeah, can't put my finger on exactly why, but Shae's scenes generally annoy me. In the book as well, but in a different way. More for her myopia. In the show its partly because she only has 2 gears, acting sexual or acting pissed off.

I should clarify that I didn't object to the gay 'sex' scene for its own sake, or find it gratuitous at all. I just find the complete weakening of the character coincidental with the decision to completely amp up the degree to which being gay is a central characteristic a bad combination. And as you say, it's not just that he goes from being a brave, able warrior to afraid of blood...they downplay him pretty much across the board. His confidence and charisma, which in the book are 3 dimensional and very real, in the show come off as forced and kinda squirmy. Like, for example, how he deals with Cat's challenges. In the show he pauses, kinda twitches a bit, forces a smile and makes the best of it...in the book he genuinely laughs, talks about her besting his defenders (with words) and smoothly overcomes the difficulty about titles. That's just one example. You mentioned others...we never get a sense in the book that Renly is being lead, is indecisive and in need of constant prodding. We never get the sense that Loras is the dominant one in the relationship, or Margery in the marriage. Whenever Renly's there, he's the one who commands attention and admiration. In the books he's a man. In the show he's a child. And lastly, my own impression based on the vague evidence from the book is that he's not necessarily exclusively gay. He talks pretty openly about getting Margery pregnant, etc. And, more, I don't get the sense that to whatever degree he is gay is something he's ashamed about. Again you get a sense of a man completely at ease with what and who he is, whereas in the show he seems nervous and insecure about almost everything. I'd like to add that I don't blame the actor; the character as written, he's playing pretty well. And I also think that I can understand, to a degree, why they are marginalizing Renly and possibly Stannis. Too many titans. The book has room enough for a bunch of awesome people...but in a 10 hour show, too many will reduce scope and come off cartoonish. I just wish they'd picked another means that an easy stereotype.

No. In S1 I thought Loras had a bit of Leo...who I don't think is good looking, but I get that most do...so I kinda shrugged it off, but Renly never fit and now neither do.

I really noticed the Irish accent in ep. 2. Hadn't even figured his as Irish before that. Knew his accent wasn't exactly on, but didn't think too much about it. But in Ep 2 it was like 'oh, he's Irish.'

I also thought the 'get out' but was played perfectly, and encapsulated why she has trouble as a leader: her reaction to the unfavorable is to reject it.

Don't agree with everything you wrote, but thoroughly enjoyed how you wrote it. One point, though...loved the rant too, and agree it answered an inner scream, but maybe I'm alone in thinking it was one step short. The last dot that should have been connected in that rant was the part about..."And now you're doing it again, and acting like I have no perspective on this! Will I be the one to pay the fucking stupid-price again?"

One small but cool element was the fact that only Pycelle doesn't argue.

No.

Same. Rivals Cersei's 'game of thrones' line as foundational for the series, and yet having seen it before lightened it.

I'm not one prone to seeing ____ism wherever I look, but I think people conscious of portrayals of homosexuals would have a pretty solid issue with this show as contrasted with the book. They have simultaneously ratcheted up Renly's gay-ness while completely doing away with his martial skill/bravery etc. and conforming him to a stereotype of, well, homosexuals as 'soft'. It may be entirely coincidental, but I doubt it. I think they reached for easy-to-identify archetypes. And if it was coincidental and no one thought to put 2 and 2 together...wow.

Thank any and all gods they abridged the Drowned God aspect. Overall, liked it. Tyrion and Yoren were the highlights, Balon's moment of self-doubt the surprise, and Renly again the least well served. Brienne was closer than I ever thought they'd get, but her devotion is only covered in the script...in action/demeanor she was pretty unreadable, and that's not how I read it. By far the best scene was the Tyrion's test sequence.

I do agree they seem to reach for sex as a constant bridge...not as subtly as Rome or Deadwood. Doesn't bother me, but it's where you don't wonder where they're going to go with certain scenes/conflicts/interactions anymore. Just kinda ''so how long until she takes...oh, ok." I think GGRM's sex scenes weren't written all that well...the show's sex scenes are a little more effective, but still slightly obvious and as I said, beginning to be predictable.

I think I unwittingly gave my response in one of my 20 edits. My best guess is they are worried about too many bigger than life characters...great for books, might make for bad tv, other than cartoons. Every attempt at filming the Illiad has had the same problem. If there are so many great could-be-kings walking about, it doesn't seem like such a big deal to be/get/kill/betray one. In the books the titans do have some flaws, to a degree, but they are more subtly revealed. In a show I guess they have to paint in broader strokes. Hated it with Renly, starting to get a bit annoyed with Stannis. I also think it's specifically the Baratheons because they are the biggest distractactions from the main plot conflicts they want to emphasize.

IMO, they have weakened both Brothers Baratheon. Robert was just lacking in stature, but Renly they completely lessened, and they seem to be edging that way with Stannis. I guess I get why...too many titans makes for weaker plot when it's limited to 10 hours. Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Jon, and the whole Yoren crew were excellent. Pyke was visualy great somehow...especially when Theon first lands. Everything else was in the middle. Ros is annoying me, and her crying defies her presumed life experience, but they used it well for LF's character. Same for Shae...her acting has always been a bit off key for me, but they used her well in this episode. Cersei is easily the most improved character this season. Edit: minor point, but why is Tyrion suddenly such a whistler? Edit, again: Making Joff the baby killer doesn't bother me for as it applies to Joff...not inconsistent, more like bigger Bran attempt...but I'm not crazy about the motivation; sympathizing Cersei. I think they are concerned about 3-dimensional-izing long term characters.