Le Cygne

I like the way you put that. I dread Cersei surviving. If she died in Winds it would offer readers a bright spot in a dark book. And hopefully it's Jaime who kills her, and she never sees it coming until it happens. A nice Cersei death would offset the torture of Tommen's kittens, so we'd have something to hold onto. Also ditto for Littlefinger. I don't want to see him survive Winds, either. Hopefully Sweetrobin takes him down.

Laughing it up, love these dark predictions that will likely come true.

Nice list! No stupid meme for Sandor. And get back, Arya! Get back! Get back to where you once belonged. Also for me, don't want to see: Sansa still in Alayne mode. Enough already. Be yourself, girl! Dany being fooled by Tyrion. She's too damn smart for that! Basically I'd like GRRM to allow these characters to express themselves and to put things they've learned to good use. It's time to lay some cards on the table.

This conveys what I was trying to say. What a difference in the depiction of elves. In the books and movies, there's an entirely different way of bearing themselves, of being. RoP made them humans with pointy ears.

This sums it up nicely! Even the way it started was like, well, we could give everyone a chance to see how cool elves can be, but instead no, let's go right into how awful they are, even the kids.

Gandalf: 'The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again. But come! We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire. 'So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever... 'But for the moment, since most of all you need to know how this thing came to you, and that will be tale enough, this is all that I will say. It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood. 'But the Ring was lost. It fell into the Great River, Anduin, and vanished. For Isildur was marching north along the east banks of the River, and near the Gladden Fields he was waylaid by the Ores of the Mountains, and almost all his folk were slain. He leaped into the waters, but the Ring slipped from his finger as he swam, and then the Ores saw him and killed him with arrows.' Elrond: Then all listened while Elrond in his clear voice spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power, and their forging in the Second Age of the world long ago. A part of his tale was known to some there, but the full tale to none, and many eyes were turned to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared them. For in that time he was not yet evil to behold, and they received his aid and grew mighty in craft, whereas he learned all their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the gate of Moria was shut... Of Numenor he spoke, its glory and its fall, and the return of the Kings of Men to Middle-earth out of the deeps of the Sea, borne upon the wings of storm. Then Elendil the Tall and his mighty sons, Isildur and Anbrion, became great lords; and the North-realm they made in Arnor, and the South-realm in Gondor above the mouths of Anduin. But Sauron of Mordor assailed them, and they made the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, and the hosts of Gil-galad and Elendil were mustered in Arnor. Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. 'I remember well the splendour of their banners,' he said. 'It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.' ... 'I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.' Here's another, Faramir: 'The valley of Minas Morgul passed into evil very long ago, and it was a menace and a dread while the banished Enemy dwelt yet far away, and Ithilien was still for the most part in our keeping. As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city. But it was taken by fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepared in secret, they grew strong again. Then the Nine Riders issued forth from the gates of horror, and we could not withstand them. Do not approach their citadel. You will be espied. It is a place of sleepless malice, full of lidless eyes. Do not go that way!'

There's also a good amount of the story of the 2nd age in the LOTR chapters, I just did a reread and bookmarked all of them, and it's quite frequent, with Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn and others recounting past events.

Musk is like Trump, they are both overgrown babies. There's nothing deep going on, he tried to get out of it and failed, and now he's acting out. He's very exposed for what he is at this point, it's like a very public temper tantrum of a baby inflated by money. That Trump Baby balloon is the perfect visualization for this.

Just seeing this, from August, GRRM talking about differences: Will your upcoming books diverge from “Thrones,” the TV series? A lot of this story comes to me as I write it. I always knew once the show got beyond my books — which honestly I did not anticipate — they would start going in directions that the books are not going to go in. Now, as I’m writing the books and I’m making more and more progress and it’s getting longer, ideas are coming to me and characters are taking me in directions that are even further from where the show went. So I think what you’re going to find is, when “Winds of Winter” and then, hopefully, “Dream of Spring” come out, that my ending will be very different. And there will be some similarities, some big moments that I told David and Dan about many years ago, when they visited me in Santa Fe. But we only had like two, three days there, so I didn’t tell them everything. And even some of the things I told them are changing as I do the writing. So they will be different. And then it’ll be up to the readers and the viewers to decide which one they like better, and argue about it. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/arts/television/george-rr-martin-house-of-the-dragon.html

I guess a lot of this has already been said, but this is interesting, how the whole revenge thing is just off: In Finrod’s case, he gives his life in order to defeat Sauron and the growing darkness the evil lord is spreading across the lands. But the reality of his death goes against this message of honor and love that Tolkien believed so deeply in, because it actually has the opposite effect. The Rings of Power series follows Galadriel’s journey after her brother’s death, and it is a journey of wrath and vengeance, as Finrod’s dagger symbolizes. And her own anger and need for justice actually keeps alive the very evil that she spends over a thousand years hunting down and seeking to destroy. So if anything, Finrod’s is not a heroic death as Tolkien would have intended, but a spark that ignites the greatest war Middle Earth has ever known. https://gamerant.com/rings-of-power-death-goes-against-tolkien-beliefs/

Good thread. 7 years would have been appropriate for his part, and that he didn't take it seems to be the thing that bothers many viewers. Prison is hell, I'd have rather seen him die than rot in jail (and realistically, he would have, too). If it's a love story, well, Kim definitely would have stopped him from rambling in that courtroom. The judge would have, too, he was acting like a nut. There was nothing profound about it, it was more like insanity. Like someone said on that thread, it was so unrealistic, it was unjust. The drug cartel terrified him much of the time, telling him there's no way out. When you are hogtied in the desert facing your grave, you say things. Basically the tone was off from the rest of the show; comedy was a thread running through the show. Jimmy was so out of character in season 6, they all were. The season felt contrived to force a faux moralistic ending. (Just to add, Vince Gilligan didn't write the ending, he said it was Peter Gould's baby. Gilligan was no longer showrunner after season 3. Gilligan helped again in season 6, but said he was just another staff writer.)

I like that Tolkien's female characters had a soft side to them, too. You can be powerful and still be gentle and kind (of course men can be these things, too). But Benioff and Weiss seemed hell bent on making women badasses. One thing I really missed were the songs and pretty dresses and happy little moments of life. They had a very twisted way of seeing the world, and women fared very badly at their hands. Tolkien takes time for those things.

Ah so this is where the Tolkien fans are hanging out. Did anyone get turned on to Tolkien thanks to Led Zeppelin? Seriously, I don't know if they led me to it or just enhanced the experience. I remember the friends who were reading it were convinced pipe weed was another kind of weed. When did I first read it, I think maybe 13. I still enjoy The Hobbit, I never thought of it as a kid's story, just as something written more like a fairy tale. Ramble On!

Indeed, they need to get past all of the same problems many others saw.

Maybe the overseer person can clean up the obvious messes, like scenes where actors are alone and yet still being deceptive (hello Sauron), low hanging fruit for mockery. (Also good question about Amazon merch... I saved a shipping bag until I lost faith in the show.)

Sauron risked his life to save Galadriel, too. And then those angsty scenes where he's alone, wondering if he should leave Numenor. It was such a deep deception, he fooled himself. Then she dragged him across the sea so he could be Sauron, whereupon he was like, yep, I meant to be here, like Pee Wee Herman falling off his bike saying I meant to do that. He could have just gone himself, and Galadriel would be dead. He had one job... (Just saw a video that said maybe Sauron was method acting when he was alone, or maybe he was breaking the fourth wall, trying to fool the audience, who mostly guessed it anyway.)

This is one of the best articles I've seen about the problems with the show: https://www.polygon.com/23414847/rings-power-season-1-review Also this one (thank you, Bilbo): It's "like butter that's been scraped over too much bread."

I have some issues with PJ's LOTR movies (I take issue with a certain story beat with Faramir for instance), however... I think we are very lucky to have it, and I can get past those things. I watch it every year (only the extended version) and am doing a re-read and re-watch at the same time, and one thing I just noticed, he included the moment with Sam and Bill the pony at the door of the mines of Moria. Now, that doesn't seem so important, but it said a lot. And he had Aragorn tell Sam not to worry. What did that do? It told us a lot about both Aragorn and Sam, in a simple, quick moment. He could have easily left it out, but it's little things like that that make us love characters.

I saw that, too. Tracked it down to this guy from filmthreat.com, Chris: I agree, the dialogue and characterization are big problems. It's really hard to try to fix something that's this messy, so they'd need to get someone really good to tackle it, and involve Tolkien professors or the like. Update: Just saw an article where the showrunners said they already wrote season 2 before season 1 aired, they said the cake is already baked. The guy in the video makes a good point about the missing feedback loop.

It shows just how special Galadriel and Gandalf are. They are larger than life, so to speak. It's sad how the show utterly failed to grasp what it's like to be an elf among elves, and a wizard. It's a fantasy, and it's a story of good and evil. Without them, the story would have gone very differently. Bringing Galadriel and Gandalf down to bumbling idiot status, and Sauron up to poor misunderstood guy status, as the show did, is a lot to overcome, but it's also not in keeping with the story.

Yes to this. She laughs twice in that scene, and after the second time she laughs, she says "I shall remain Galadriel." It's like whistling when you go past a graveyard. It's a lovely revelation of who Galadriel is, that she laughs. There are two similarly structured scenes in the text, where Frodo says you are wise and offers the ring to both Galadriel and Gandalf, and they both tell him why it would be wrong to give it to them. And after she says this, Frodo still asks her questions about the ring, he doesn't fully understand it. He's looking to Gandalf and Galadriel for wisdom. They are showing him the nature of the ring. Anyway this all makes me wish we'd seen a better depiction of Galadriel in the show.

This is a good point. Sauron is not that kind of a character at all. After spending a whole season on a pointless plot that they tossed aside in the last 15 minutes, they at least could have been clear about his precious feelings. One of the writers of the second and last episodes is a former Breaking Bad writer, and they tend to insert that in other shows where it doesn't belong (one made Anne With An E, a sweet coming of age story, super dark for some reason). The scene with Sadoc dying, just wanting to sit there, was like Mike dying. Like, Sadoc is not Mike. The other harfoots didn't even comfort him. It was such a mess, it just seemed obviously inserted for yet another homage to a better show/movie.

Yeah, I am doing a re-read and re-watch at the same time (read a bit, watch a bit as I go), so I just saw that. I actually meant the part after she gets gleam in her eyes (the equivalent of the laugh in the books), where she's like, lemme show Frodo what a mistake that would be, then launches into it. The wise ones all know the thing is trying to draw them in, so they already decided that to the best of their ability, they are going to resist it. Gandalf doesn't even want to touch it. They've thought about it. That was my point.

I don't think she was quickly tempted by the ring in LOTR. In the books (and I think she's trying to show this in the movie, too), she laughs when Frodo offers her the ring, and seems to be trying to show him it would be wrong for her, or anyone, to take the ring: "You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel. I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me." Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh... "For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp..." "And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In the place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen..." She stood before Frodo, seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. "I pass the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel." It's a story of good and evil, and this choice is at the heart of the story. Frodo tries to give the ring away twice, to Gandalf and Galadriel, who he knows are wise and have good intentions, and both resist temptation (evil). Here's the scene that plays out the same way with Gandalf: "You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?" "No!" cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible... Do not tempt me, for I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. "And now," said the wizard, turning back to Frodo, 'the decision lies with you. But I will always help you." He laid his hand on Frodo's shoulder. "I will help you bear this burden, as long as it is yours to bear."