Castel

agreed

but the breakup scene with tyrion and shae would go a long way to justify shaes behavior later. like they say "hell hath no fury etc"

why did he have to breakup with her. just put a bag over her head and toss her in a ship to pentos. DONE.

lord tywin is not what his mask shows. he is quite capable of passionate acts. but the order of elia's murder is not so much an act of passion but a rational (and horrible) act.

Murdering the kids made sense.Murdering Elia was either spiteful or a mistake.

Where? With Shae? Not really. I doubt that that'll be seen as anything other than him Nymeria-ing her-for her own good of course.It's not like the idea of him settling down with Sansa is even slightly credible.

Joff? Nah, he's just an idiot there and has always been.

Erm, Brienne's love for Jaime is canon. She thinks it when Stoneheart's hanging her. She can do something for honor but still feel love for someone.

Also the scene doesn't even have to mean that she definitely loves Jaime. It just means that the question has taken her aback and she's now questioning how she feels about someone she hated just a few weeks ago. She doesn't have an obvious answer and she doesn't recover quickly when questioned by his sister of all people. That has to be awkward.

Sure, she probably does but that scene doesn't have to be the final word.

It's only because Shae is a moron and has been told multiple times that shit won't work out but she's apparently too dumb to hear.You would think that a whore who was a camp follower and then a handmaiden to one of the greatest victims of the Lannisters, one who was poised to see exactly what happened in court to people who came to the attention of Joff or his family would know better.

If a guy tells you to leave for your own safety and then you refuse, then he bashes you over the head and forces you to leave then you should know what's up.

But no,still not "just".

But of course, that doesn't mean it won't happen. I hope not, but it's possible. As someone said above: they could just take her at this emotional time and force her to confess. It's not like she's in a particularly good mood. It's possible she just takes up with Tywin there.

Dinklage can definitely do it. He's done a great job with the character despite the fact that the writers have stripped every bit of darkness and shade of gray out of the character. Saint Tyrion's behavior has become so predictable and risks becoming boring. At this point, I fully expect Shae to strangle herself to death while Saint Tyrion watches helplessly and cries.

Yeah, I'm not at all sure they'll do it. They're odd, these writers; it's like they have a limit to how far they can go. Kill a baby at a wedding? Sure. But have Tyrion be an asshole...nah, that's too much.

I'm actually curious about how this ends now just to see how the writers resolve this plot they've written.

Hopefully we don't see vengeful Shae though. Christ, this plot is already melodramatic and tired enough.

Good episode. Beyond the Shae bullshit that is but then, that's been around for a while, like a bad smell you grudgingly get used to.

We know that, but no matter how well they were to try to tell that to the audience, it would not have come off that way. Look at all the "Talisa is a spy" theories abound this season. Rather than a gift that fell in Tywin's lap, the whole ordeal would appear as if Tywin planned it all.

Except that the theory was probably influenced by book viewers' own theories about Jeyne. And even so...so what? They'll end up being proven wrong. This happens. Tough shit. And all it would take to disprove this notion is Tywin uttering a few lines. Clearly an insurmountable problem.

While I think it's sappy as all fuck (and even more emotionally manipulative than usual-or at least more hamfisted at it) FLOW's concerns about the time constraints and the audience swallowing the cultural dissonance probably weighed more on the minds of the producers.

Your joking right?

There's no colleges in that time and just because she is good at medicine doesn't make her smart. We've seen a few occasions where she isn't very bright.

Have you watched Community? You don't have to be smart to have moral convictions. I wasn't talking about intelligence as much as certain ideas that are common to that group.

Well exactly does she have that's more than a 'pretty' body? She has shown multiple times that she's very dim witted so its not intelligence lol.

But back on point this is Walder Frey. He could have easily insulted them both, but it was still good for what it was.

The moral convictions of a liberal university student?

Of course he could have insulted them both but personally ,it was more interesting to me to see him attacking Robb's so-called honor there. Talisa only matters in the sense that she's occupying space that belongs (or should belong, as Frey sees it) to him. Making her squirm is probably of lesser importance to him.

Okay, Catelyn had every bit as much to do with Robbs downfall as Talisa did.

Catelyn tore the army apart with her release of Jaime Lannister. Karstark turned to the other Lannister prisoners because The Kingslayer could not be punished for the killing of his sons, so he got his cock-eyed revenge as he could. He was emboldened by the lack of stern punishment of Cat for her treason.

Cat's betrayal also drove Robb away from her as a trusted advisor. Which Talisa showed she could be.

If Catelyn doesn't free Jaime, Robb doesn't break his vow to the Freys. If the army doesn't lose the Karstarks, Bolton doesn't turn cloak.

Catelyn destroyed Robb and his army.

Causally she's possibly responsible. Not morally though. Robb is a grown-up,he chose to be illogical and selectively ignore her advice in a situation where he knew that she was damn well right.

I think my favorite scene was probably the apology scene. Just because it was so funny what Walder said in naming his daughters and granddaughters. And then his sly way of insulting Talisa was great. I admit though I wish he would have straight up insulted her, instead of saying 'oh so pretty', because it would have been great to see an actual facial expression from Oona than the blank one. But Robb getting angry and stepping forward still made up for that. Ooh and Frey women making flirty eyes at Blackfish, that had to be one of my favorites.

He doesn't insult Talisa because he doesn't care about Talisa. He would much rather insult Robb, the person he really has a problem with. Well, he kinda does insult Talisa by reducing her to a pretty body but it's more to fuck with Robb.

Oh she's quite the trooper. Her last act was to murder an innocent girl.

whoever wrote the dialogue between robb and talisa for this episode, should have been writing robb/talisa scenes for the last two years. for the first time they seemed natural together, like two people that actually liked each other. if they had always been like this, the whole plotline would have made a lot more sense.

How did you feel about last few episodes then?

Personally speaking I simply shut down wrt Robb and Talisa during Season Three. They seemed to be blatantly trying to make them likable and tragic and it seemed so obvious that I just switched off. I don't like seeing the puppeteers hand,

Watched it again today. Still just exasperated. Amazing how I knew it was coming and still just how impactful that was. 2 new thoughts.

At first I wasn't to happy with the way they handled Grey Wind. I originally wished for him to go out fighting like he actually did. However, watching again and thinking about it I think the way they did it was better. For many people (myself included) its more difficult to watch animals/pets die than people on tv shows. They obviously had to show this but hid most of him so we got the point. Otherwise they would have prob showed a graphic axe to the head full body shot of poor Grey Wind which would have been bitterly tough.

One of the more baffling aspects of Western culture tbh. I wouldn't have minded him getting an axe to the head. Honestly, considering that a pregnant woman just got stabbed in the fucking stomach I'd be really disturbed if that was their main motivation for not showing it.

I'm wondering if we'll see Grey Wind's head on Robb's boy or Cat thrown naked into the river. The latter seems more likely. The former...too gruesome for even this show?

6)No Manderly, Mormont, Glover and Umble. I wonder if they will introduce (or reintroduce) all of them later.

It'll take them about three lines to do so when the time comes.

Well I do think it is obviously deliberate as the words are chosen for her. It was weird to hear her say, but I think it's supposed to be, as you said, some kind of internalized hatred.

Well, it is deliberate, I just don't know if she believes them like Cersei or she thinks they'll get through to Jaime. The former seems more realistic but I'm torn.

This is the second episode where Brienne has made a comment about women being weak. The first could be seen as striking at Jaime's pride. Here? Internalized Misogyny? Deliberate? Unfortunate? I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it.

The Jaime/Brienne fight was hilarious. I guess there was no way to plausibly make it closer. And Jaime should suffer from a lack of stamina.

Tyrion and Shae is just pathetic. I couldn't stop cringing.

You think by putting effin' Ramsay Snow in a position of power in the North is 'saving people'? Another war has already started there because they can't keep their subjects under control, and Tywin knew this. The intent was to have the North exhaust it's strength further from the start. Tywin ordered many senseless massacres for no reason, enough to prove 'preventing more deaths' was never his intent.

I'm pretty sure the Boltons had things in hand before Stannis the Wildcard jumped in. Of course Tywin cares about preventing deaths. Just not across the board, I doubt he gives two fucks what happens to his enemies. And no, I don't think that Tywin ever ordered a single "senseless" massacre.

- The Red Wedding was a complete pointless massacre. Capturing the Starks was a possibility over killing them, which the Red Wedding Alliance ignored out of sheer spite.

Except that this was always the plan. Cat was to be captured. Capturing Robb is a dangerous game. What if he escaped? On top of that, unless he dies the North will always have hope. The point is to establish a new regime in Winterfell, that's best done by taking out the current leader. Robb had no value as a chip. Everyone thought that all his heirs were dead and that Sansa was with the Lannisters. What are they going to do? Surely they're not going to trade him. He was a traitor and there was nothing to gain from keeping him alive.

- Stannis and Robb were both fighting to remove Joffrey and the ridiculous Lannister regime, which, as has been proven, is an extremely crappy regime. They released religious zealots on the land, slaughtered the people of King's Landing in the streets, allowed dwarfs and other people to be killed on the streets, incurred the wrath of the Iron Bank, messed up their alliance with the Tyrells and hold a very weak grip over the Seven Kingdoms, not to mention establishing feuds by crimes such as the Red Wedding that would echo for centuries. .

The things in bold happened after both Stannis and Robb had lost their major battles. The Starks went to war first to free Ned and then for revenge. Stannis went to war for his claim. That's that. Honestly pretending that there's some greater cause here for Robb is strange. He's not trying to put a better person on the Iron Throne, he's doing his best to make it irrelevant and thumb his nose at the concept.

This opposed to Tywin who's starting of the war in the Riverlands was a complete and total overreaction. Ned Stark and his men were murdered for doing the right thing: the North was fighting for a just cause

As opposed to Robb going to war because Ned was put in prison by what he knew to be the rightful king at the time based on really questionable evidence?

No, it is NOT right to murder a man and it is especially not right to murder one’s brother! I simply fail to understand why people are ok with Renly’s murder. So what that he was an “usurper”, so what that he was wrong according to inheritance rights in Westeros. Killing a man without trial is a MURDER. Killing one’s brother is KINSLAYING. Id doesn’t matter that Stannis didn’t kill Renly personally, he ordered/allowed Melisandre to do it and as such he is as accountable as she is.

Renly admitted his guilt, a trial is only an issue in such times when the person denies their guilt and/or isn't trying to swing a sword through your head. You really think that all kings dealt with their enemies with trials? Renly was planning to kill Stannis and claim his throne, Stannis killed him first. C'est la vie.

So our Stannis is now practical kinslayer. Good for him.

And so were the Targs when they fought their Blackfyre cousins. Such things happen in war. Why should Renly be spared because he happens to share some common DNA with Stannis?

That last scene with Tywin and Loras bursting in and the Rains of Castamere cover basically justified this entire show.