Ser Desmond Wine's Bane

Yep - for me Varys sitting next to the box contemplating was incredibly powerful and one of my personal 'most memorable images' of the series.

I am sorry if that was the impression. It was not the intent. I was replying to a post that claimed there had been no major changes made. Clearly this is not the case.

I couldn't agree less. Tyrion didn't have a reason to risk his freedom and seek out Tywin Tyrion doesn't have a reason to resent Jaime Jaime doesn't have a reason to resent Cersei Jaime doesn't have a reason to resent Tyrion The story is primarily a character driven drama with the intrigue and suspense based upon the motivations and choices of the characters. Jaime and Cersei are now reconciled and free to live happily ever after. Tyrion is now free of Cersei's machinations and now knows he has a loving brother waiting for him with open arms if ever he is able to return. gag

My issue is not that he killed Shae. The issue is why did he go there in the first place. In the books he has a reason. In the show he did not.

I agree some of the changes are for the better. I cannot agree that overall its worked out. The whole Tyrion escape sequence does not make sense. The reveal of Arya's identity at the gate then not being allowed passage does not make sense. The ball has been severely dropped on the storyline of the Wall. There are many saying "All that at the Wall was cool but really I don't care about Jon and Stannis".

Exactly. I don't watch very much TV at all. The only reason I watch GoT is because I read the books. Had I not done that, I wouldn't be watching. In the books she tries to give Jaime oral sex and he pushes her away. It is a clear progression of his character development that they established so well in Season 3. She always used sex to manipulate him. Him refusing her at this time was a clear plot point that he was no longer going to accept that treatment. The portrayal in this episode does not continue that development and just layers on the confusion they started with in Episode 3. In series 1, there was an attempted assassination. The fallout from that is what lead to the war. Events in this series is when the person behind that assassination attempt is revealed - but they neglected to cover it.

Except Jaime reconciling and succumbing to Cersei's sexual manipulation makes no sense given that he then goes and frees Tyrion anyway. Some of the changes are great and in fact needed. Other changes are pointless. This one added nothing.

So, firstly I am in the camp who thinks the lack of LSH is a missed opportunity for a massive series cliffhanger - but I did not think it would happen after Ep 9 was cut so short. I also am not going to rate the episode one way or another based on that issue. On to this 65 minute episode (65 min 17 seconds from HBO static to end credits included) Jon/Mance/Stannis Really liked it, but have a few nitpicks. The music cue at the arrival of Stannis was a disappointment. Jon lieing about what Ned would have done is OK with me (Ned would have beheaded Mance for being a NW deserter) - it shows Jon is playing the game. This sequence really should have been in Ep 9 though. It might have been enough to encourage me to score Ep 9 closer to 10 then the 'barely 8' that I gave it. unGregor Satisfyingly creepy, mysterious and intriguing. Would have like some screaming, but it still worked. Tywin/Cersei Liked the scene... but am concerned about how weak they have made Tywin this season. (referring back to the lame scene with Jaime in Ep1 - standing there and accepting the whims of his children is not the Tywin/Dance they have established in the previous 3 seasons) Jaime/Cersei Great! Until they screwed it up with how they ended it. Would have much more sense if he had finally pushed her away as in the books. Refusing to succumb to her sexual manipulation was critical to his character development (newfound attempt to honour the office and the White Book) and a key driver in his actions later in the episode. The shagging just ruined all that. Dany/The Old Teacher Great - enjoyed the explanation of the problems caused by her naive actions earlier. I initially thought the scene would have been better served earlier in the season. That opinion changed with the next sequence. The Sack/The Catacombs The supplicant was fantastic. He nailed it. I loved the chaining. Easily my favourite Meereen scene this year. The mirroring of that with the recognition that a blanket ban on slavery is unworkable was fantastic. Her 'new world' needs some work. The Pyres Great scene. RIP Grenn - He Held The Gate. Also loved the White Harbour reference, and Mel eyeing Jon through the flames. Jon/Tormund/Ygritte Again I loved the sequence. Almost made me care about Show Ygritte. Such a lost opportunity. Team Bran Yay they made it! Boo - ice skeletons OTT. Yay D+D remembered the direwolves are useful! Boo - Jonen's stabbling was lame (I don't have a problem with his demise at this point - and I loved Book Jojen, but it was clear his usefulness is at an end once they reach the tree. If KotLT is to happen, Meera can still do it). Leaf throwing fireballs? Nope, not a fan. Too OTT. Bloodraven - yeah I liked it but it was a bit unresolved. Whole sequence was too focussed on being one about cool skellies rather than the story imo. Arya/The Hound/Brienne Liked most of the meeting, but the actual explanation for the moment that sparked the fight was weak. They did it so much better in the Polliver scene. Fight was a suitable emotional turmoil. The begging for the gift of mercy was fantastic. Episode MVP to the Hound. I actually liked the Hound v Brienne battle because it is a far more interesting turn of events than the quest of Book Brienne (by far the weakest part of the entire story for me). As presented, the sequence was really good but as a piece of storytelling it was a head scratcher. Disappointing resolution to the crappy writing in Ep 8 though. Arya's identity revealed and is the High Born first cousin of the Lord of the Vale but still isn't allowed into The Eyrie? Wat? Tyrion/Jaime Bad. On so many levels bad. Firstly overly rushed. Secondly Jaime's actions not in character with the newly sexually manipulated Jaime that has been set up as Show Canon. Thirdly, Tysha. Ugh. Tyrion/Shae Did like initially. Would have been better if he had acted first and she pulled the knife to fight him off. Scene went from 'Like' to WTF with the 'I'm sorry' line. I am not sorry for displaying my displeasure and disappointment at this. Its a critical moment in Tyrion's character and a critical moment for the whole story and they dropped the ball. PSA - you don't keep crossbows stored while fully tensioned. It ruins the bow. If you are going to trumpet about the skills of your weapons artisans at least make it believable. Tyrion/Tywin OK but was lacking the angst and power of the original. For those saying Tysha wasn't mentioned enough, they had clearly set it up previously with Tyrion's line "I was married before" in an exchange with Tywin. A reasonable set up with Jaime would have made both these scenes far better. At least this one is just a 'neutral' from me instead of clear 'negatives' of the last two. Tyrion/Varys Good but just a little lacking. Best moment for me was the final shot... but I suspect I wouldn't have cared as much about Varys had I been unsullied. Arya Good, but there are many watchers who think that Arya is sailing to the Wall... so no, the scene is clearly not fantastic. Summary. Yeah its OK... but they had so many opportunities to blow the roof off and just missed them... I am torn between a 7 and an 8. I will give it a 7 for now. I may come back and upgrade it after a rewatch... but if I do so I will also be going back to downgrade earlier episodes. People said "Don't judge the episode by what wasn't in it - the are 'x' episodes to go! They may still do it!" Its the end of the season now and they didn't have Jaime standing up to his father with the 'I don't want your Rock' line. They didn't explain who sent the assassin that started the entire war. They didn't do enough to make anyone care about the story of the Wall or Stannis. They didn't bother to tell a coherent story on many fronts. The step down from Season 3 is really disappointing. The season was 9 hrs and 8 min long... They padded it with filler and were still unable to really tell a coherent story on a lot of points. I suspect my season score would be about 7 as well.

Plenty of material this season to be able to make a judgement on that issue.... Crasters sequences. Jaime raped Cersei then the story continued as if nothing happened. Arya walking up to the Bloody Gate announcing her name and..... wat? Astute watchers are already asking WTF happened there.

So after a rewatch.... and I will try to do it based on the show with minimal book bias. Yes, it was a fantastic 49 minutes of television (or 50 min 30 seconds if the HBO static and end credits are included) Great cinematics and camera work. I totally bought the giant and mammoth sequences. Thorne was just as he should be Sam/Gilly and Sam/Aemon sequences annoyed me on first watch but I do like them second time around Greatest moment - Grenn holding the gate. One of the best in the entire show IMO. I'd really love to give it a 10 but there are just a few issues. Gilly saw the Wildlings encamped 200 m from Castle Black but didn't tell any one? Jon has forgotten why the clans united behind Mance? Slynt was a little too cartoony coward The sequence immediately prior to Jon holding Ygritte was to cliche for my tastes. Book reader me loved the depiction of Ygritte's death, but trying to judge the show by itself, Show watcher me just didn't care. Why do I even care about this battle anyway (as a show watcher)? Not enough Ghost. The book reader in me had expected the episode to run through to show all the events up to the arrival of you-know-who. This really coloured how I viewed it the first time around and why I had to (for the first time) sit down for a rewatch before I passed a score. The episode as presented was visually fantastic but the niggles took me out of the moment too often. So a 9 feels appropriate.... Except.... It was a 50 minute episode in a series that has now run for 8 hrs and 3 minutes (9 episodes) - and they just have not spent enough resources on making people care a single iota about the Wall. I have no doubt I'll be going back to review my scores on previous episodes too and fully expect to downgrade scores - where I had initially thought I might upgrade when I carried out that process. 8/10 - and I am still torn on that.

Such a shame the show has failed to communicate that point for the last 3 seasons.

I wouldn't put 'The City Watch' in the same category as 'Elite Unit of Soldiers'. They were paid thugs in armour used to quell violence in Flea Bottom - or start it if the price was right.

Normally I give my rating after my 1st watch. I do this intentionally as part of a process. Watch/think a bit/give score. I just can't do it this time.... I am going to have to think on it for a day or two, and do a rewatch. Summary thoughts - really really surprised they didn't do the full sequence up to the Stannis arrival. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I do have to reassess my position based on that knowledge. I do want to toss something out there though - about the lack of numbers of Wildlings (and I know this was never supposed to be about the full weight of Mance's army)... and the assertion it is because of budget. I'll just say this: "Mhysa"

Yes. It is confirmed that is not the case. I do agree the writing is somewhat disappointing but there is a lot about that show that is not garbage.

Indeed. Taken on its own the Grey Worm/Missandei sequences are beautiful etc.... but they come at the cost of: 1) The development of the characters of the dragons and how that represents Dany's problems with trying to be a 'ruler' while still being an adolescent girl herself 2) The 100,000 strong army we haven't seen since the start of last season 3) Stannis A big problem I have with the whole Crasters sequence was that it was cobbled together and a huge lost opportunity. They could have had Team Bran trying to sneak their way through the outliers of the army. They could have still had them captured and done the 'Brandor' thing. So we are supposed to believe Jon went to Craster's for Bran, then didn't even bother asking the wives about him and hasn't spoken of him since? Much better to have had Sam make the Promise to Bran last season then have Jon go to Crasters to silence them (as was the official reason) and also possibly skirmish/gather intel on Mance's movements. All invented sequences and all far better for pushing the tension for the coming battle. They have dropped the ball on the entire Wall storyline for 3 seasons in a row now. Edit: But we got to hear about beetles being squashed!

Exactly. I have actually really enjoyed some of the added scenes. Many others I just cannot stand and skip on rewatch (*cough* Baelish brothel monologues *cough*) There is one thing I found disturbing. When questioned about the characterisation of Mace Tyrell, Brian Cogman said "Yeah we made him a buffoon. I don't care if he isn't like that in the books. Its funny!" As they keep getting positive reinforcement from the ratings, they will continue to grow in their hubris I fear.

And I can't take many of the 10/10 scorers seriously given that they openly admit the episode wasn't perfect but are giving that score anyway in an attempt to counter someone else's score.

^ This. Her laugh wasn't cute it was maniacal.

Kinda like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5eqNp8eYp0

To me, they have missed some perfect opportunities - Bran and co could have had some dramatic moments as they had to pass Mance's outliers and scouts. They could could have even been captured and have the whole Brandor thing happen then instead of Crasters. Similar to Jon's expedition - again would have been valuable information about this army that is coming 'eventually'. Now we are going to have 100,000 people suddenly arrive and the audience is supposed to be engaged in the issues and characters?

10 minutes at any point showing there was actually an army coming to the Wall might have been nice. Hell, even 1 minute. Ever.

Indeed. It is also why he didn't address the entire crowd in the books when he said it. It was as an aside in the far more dramatic build-up that was missing.

Or they could have, you know, done it like book and have Tyrion warned not to touch the blade?

Oberyn - Today is not the day I die Cue - Mountain enters stage right Ellaria - You are going to fight that? Oberyn - I am going to kill that. Mountain approaches the dais Ellaria - He is the biggest man I have ever seen!

Be sad no longer! It wasn't cut from the show.