Vhailorian

:rofl: So good....

No...you are not the only one enjoying the Theon scenes this season. My non-reader friend and I are both enjoying them. I am also one of the few who view these scenes as necessary. Unfortunately we seem to be a small minority. That being said, I think the scenes could be shortened a bit to accommodate other arcs that are suffering from lack of attention. As far as the rest of the episode...I fear I am in the minority here too. I felt that some characters received some much needed development in this episode...particularly Jon and Ygritte. This week was the first time I felt they were actually engaging in a "real" relationship instead of a plot contrivance. Ditto for Rob and Talisa. On a down note, I really do wish they would give Cat some more screen time...and lines. The under-use of Cat and the general squirrelyness (Yes...I know squirrelyness isn't a word :) ) of the changes made to her and Rob's storyline is proving to be a real drag on the impact of the Red Wedding.

This...exactly. I couldn't say it better if I tried...which I planned on doing when I got to the end of this thread. Thanks for saving me a lengthy post. :cheers:

I agree, but to a certain degree I think all of the characters are suffering from such alterations. Some are being whitewashed and some are being darkened. The characters are diminished by this and made considerably less...challenging. I truly enjoy the show...for what it is. Unfortunately, the lack of nuance and subtlety in the show's character development does not allow viewers the freedom to interpret the characters. As troubling as the "re-imagining" of major characters can be, I find the problems particularly prevalent with the characters for whom we have no PoV in the books. I feel we are forced to swallow the show writers' interpretation of these characters, where in the books we have a great deal of freedom to view the characters in a myriad of ways. The overt absolution of Cersei for the Bastard Hunt and the attempt on Tyrion's life serves to coddle the audience by providing easy answers without having to engage their minds. When left ambiguous, as in the books, the viewer is given freedom to speculate about who took the actions and what the motives may have been. This provides each reader with a sliding scale of morality and righteousness and leads to wildly differing opinions on who and what the characters are...to which anyone who frequents these boards can attest. :) As much as I enjoy the show...and I do...I barely recognize these characters in their altered and simplified forms. Heh...Guess I will just have to start a reread as a pallet cleanser. :)

Nope...I think once Gendry gets to Dragonstone everything is going to play out largely as it did for Edric. After Gendry is shipped off some clever (or not so clever) means will be found to get him back to where he needs to be.

Roflmao...One of the best posts I have ever read...:)

This may very well have been my favorite episode in the series thus far, though I need another viewing or two to be sure. One thing I can say definitively is that I nitpicked this episode less than any in recent memory. I managed to suffer from none of my usual "But in the book..." thoughts and comparisons. The Brienne "you're acting like a woman" comment did hit my ear strangely...but on further reflection I believe she was simply playing to what she knew Jamie would react to. The only other moment of strangeness for me was that the Bran scene seemed out of place in this episode...not a bad scene, but it was drowned out by the rest of the episode in my opinion. Also, I cant remember who originally posted it, but Cat in the Bran scene did bring Lady Stoneheart to my mind as well. The "Dracarys" scene was...just...well...I won't embarrass myself by describing my reaction while I am tired enough to be totally honest. I'll simply say that it was more amazing than I could have hoped. :)

This will be my last word on the matter as well, as my whole reason for jumping into this was to try and end it. (Poorly played me) :) The point of the scene was not Ros or showing that she was better at Varys's job than Varys...the point of the scene was to inform Varys of Littlefinger's possible plan to spirit Sansa away from King's Landing.

Heh...all too true. :) I laughed at the because of the supreme irony rather than the comment itself. I like that a reader and non-reader could be equally amused by this line for very different reasons.

Ros took no time away from anyone...Ros gave us more Varys time...This is nearly always the case with the characters she interacts with as Ros is never the focal point or the purpose of the scenes she takes part in.

I could sit down for a half an hour and invent a story or two about how and why Ros is who she is and fit it seamlessly into the context of GRRM's Westeros. I could also nitpick any number of book characterizations and how they don't blend as seamlessly with the world as they could. It would serve all the Ros haters right if D&D went to great lengths to explain and flesh out the character they detest so much. Then the complaint would be, "How can the spend so much time on making a non-canon character a major character?" It's not like they are focusing on her as a character...she is just a plot device that is useful in a multitude of ways. To those who take issue with Ros the reading whore I would say, "Books and television normally focus on characters that are unusual or exceptional in some way...get used to it." One whore in thousands in Westeros can read without giving an explanation and suddenly everyone is the Song of Ice and Fire reality police...sheesh

I don't know why I am even posting this, but everything you said about Ros applies to Talisa. How does a plucky spitfire of a Florence Nightengail type wandering around, alone and unguarded, through the battlefields of Westeros not force me to question the gritty reality of the world depicted on screen? A spunky foreign noblewoman to boot? And one that sasses Roose Bolton in front of a large group of people and lives to marry the King in the North??? Fits right in...and of course Ros the whore stretches the bounds of credulity. Everyone knows there are no whores in Westeros.

Sorry if this has been mentioned (I am a few pages behind)..but did anyone notice that both last week and this week "Boy" used my lord and not m'lord referring to Theon? Last week they even contrasted it with Locke using m'lord when referring to Jamie in the next scene. First tangible reason for some of the exceedingly well written and well acted, but seemingly unnecessary, scenes between Tywin and Arya at Harrenhal.

Gods!!!! With all the great things this episode had, all anyone can talk about for 2 plus pages is Ros hatred? I normally don't get my hackles up about people's opinions, which of course they have every right to voice, but Seven bloody Hells have I grown weary of hearing the same old Ros complaints on these boards for 2+ seasons. Every time the writers give her a line people find something in it to complain about: "The writers make her seem smarter than Varys..." "Ros is naked too much..." Ros is only good for being naked and she isn't naked enough..." "The actress is terrible..." "Ros isn't even a book character..." Maybe I will compile a list of the 1000 most common complaints about Ros and number them so the persistent complaints can read more like...Ros #768...Handy shorthand so I can get to fresh and interesting opinions rather than stale ones dating back to the pilot episode. This is coming from someone who is much closer to being a book purist than a show changing apologist. I didn't like Ros either...but I learned to live with it rather than beating everyone who will listen or read over the head with the same complaints over and over. I learned to accept the role and have come to like Esme Bianco. Furthermore, she has played a valuable and, at times necessary, role in the show in a number of ways. The way D&D have chosen to adapt the show, right or wrong, made Ros, or a character like her, necessary. Sorry for the angry rant...but I stand by everything in it, and I needed to vent it. I am far from a prolific poster, but I do spend a good deal of time on these boards and having to sort through the same rants for pages at a time for years is getting real old.

Actually, I totally agree with you Rockroi. I realize how impossible and unrealistic it would be for GRRM to be constantly looking over the writers shoulders...changing things at a whim. However, that does not always stop me from wishing for it at certain groan worthy moments. (see the Ros, Armeca, Littlefinger scene) It is also true that sometimes the show writers do in fact know better. Unfortunately, knowing better doesn't always help. An example of this is the fact that D&D clearly realized that Dany's five chapters and miniscule forward progress from ACoK would never work in a television format...but was their solution any better? Maybe, but it is certainly open to debate. That being said, I am for the most part a supporter of the changes that have been made...though there are a few headscratchers. (mostly dropped subplots and prophesy imo) Even though I started as a purist viewer of the series, (I have read the books 7,7,5,4,4 times respectively) I have let most, if not all, of my angst over the changes go. Most of them are explainable in a variety of ways...even the ones I don't like. Like many on the forums here I find discussing the changes to be a fun intellectual endeavor...though I must admit that there are days that my one non-reader friend probably wants to strangle me as I weigh him down with post viewing history and exposition...muhahahaha I reserve the right as I told him I would stop as soon as he agreed to read the books. :) I realized I was no longer a purist when I decided that I actually like Ros and felt she had a place in the show...Twice within my first five posts here I admit to the most unpopular thing on these forums...I must be daft. :)

Though this is way of the current direction of the thread...Did anyone else notice that when reciting MMD's prophetic words Dany said "When the rivers run dry?" A big swing and a miss...if this was not some crazy intentional change by D&D.

Rockroi is correct...an executive producer credit has absolutely no bearing on the accredited person's contribution to the project. Stan Lee is credited as an executive producer for The Avengers...and had no creative input and received no monetary compensation. In Stan Lee's case the executive producer credits were a vanity negotiated as part of the rights deal. I do wish, however, that GRRM had a giant veto hammer to swing...unfortunately...

I am going to take the road less traveled on this episode...I loved it...with a few reservations. 1. Littlefinger offering help to Sansa: This is likely a good thing for non book readers, and clearly LF needed to be handled in a significantly different manner from the books as so much of what he does is offstage. However, I am still not convinced that overtly showing ALL of his machinations is the way to go. I feel that the TV only people are being robbed of that WTF moment when we all realize that LF is an alpha player. 2. Rob and Talisa: I could nitpick the married in the eyes of the seven thing...but I won't...it has already been covered. Maybe there is a reason the writers did this maybe it was just sloppy. If it was sloppy it wouldn't be the first time...right AND left handed Hound in episode 1 anybody? The Talisa not being Jeyne Westerling and hailing from Volantis is far more irritating...that being said I am still not firmly convinced she is not Jeyne. The letter that Tywin had that was likely sent by her would firmly tie her to the Lannisters and the rest could just be an elaborate and well played ruse. This would add some extra spice if, in the end, she actually fell in love with Rob. I have read crazier things here in my years of lurking...and this seems like a D&D thing to do. 3. House of the Undying: Nice imagery, well acted...but pretty weak sauce for the most part. I applaud the writers for attempting to adjust Dany's relatively sparse story in ACoK, but overall I found the story overwrought and not particularly well thought out. A poor plan by Pyat Pree and no real tension or feeling of threat in the climactic scene. That being said I am fine with the visions as they appeared. We were never going to get what we got in the books...either too explicit spoiler wise, or absolutely no setup to give the visions proper and meaningful context. Criticisms aside, the imagery and acting carried the day and made all of this a net plus for me. 4. The sacking of Winterfell: I have no problem with Dagmar and Co. selling out Theon...and I am pretty sure Ramsay and his men did sack Winterfell. I guess we will have to wait and see. There is some detritus floating around in respect to whether Dagmar and Co. survived and who would and would not know what actually happened...but decent writing can clean all that up. 5. Ros and Varys: Great scene...only meaningless if you are a writer on the show and know where this is going. As none of us write for the show the "meaningless" tag is totally invalid. I had my issues with Ros...particularly that abomination of a scene with the lesbian sexplay and LF arbitrarily spilling his guts...but I got over it. I like Ros...I like Esme Bianco as an actress and I don't care if she is a scrappy and a writers pet...she has a place on this show. 6. Shae and Tyrion: I had some early issues with Sibel Kekilli as Shae and I am still not totally sure she is right for the part, but I blame many of her lower moments in the show on poorly written dialogue and not on her. The scene this week was very good though and the writing for her has been much stronger the last two weeks. Peter Dinklage, of course, steals the scene...but that happens with all but the strongest actors on this show. Lol...I have lots more, but who will actually read a text wall by a first time poster on page twenty something of a three day old thread. Cheers...Btw thanks to all of you for providing me with hours of interesting and insightful postings since I have lurked here. :) Edited to add this: Heh...guess this is my second post...I didn't think my first post went through. :)