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the trees have eyes

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  1. To the OP, in general terms, no, but there is a wide readership so that's like asking how long's a piece of string. Tyrion is written quite sympathetically to start before turning darker; the initial sympathy carries him a long way. Jaime is written as a monster from the moment he throws Bran from the window but GRRM is consciously playing with the idea of redemption so Jaime appears differently as the story goes on and we get his pov as he struggles with doing the right thing: he's far from good but we have a more sympathetic view of him than to start. Tywin and Cersei are written as antagonists without any sympathetic qualities and without any redeeming character development. Indeed Cersei appears worse as we learn of her childhood murder of Melara Hetherspoon and see her take part in Qyburn's tortures. She is consciously imitating Tywin and seeking to outdo him in ruthlessness so they are very similar. As some people like good villains there is niche fan approval for both of them (as there is for Roose Bolton). Even if someone "likes" Tywin and despises Cersei I'm not sure that implies sexism - it would depend on their reasons. It could simply be in terms of effectiveness: Tywin was an efficient Hand for Aerys and won TWot5K while Cersei is a hot mess in terms of judgment and conduct with even Kevan and Jaime, her closest family, realising she is a disaster in a position of power.
  2. Ramsay has been legitimised while Jon has not. He has no reason to be touchy about his lack of status any more and It's quite possible that he is simply gloating and gratuitously insulting Jon. Crows could point either way: to the letter being from someone else or to Ramsay's general disdain and insults for the NW. You have to figure that if only wildlings ever refer to the NW as crows then this is a clear and obvious evidence of forgery in itself and that seems too big and simple a mistake to make.
  3. Sansa said she didn't remember what happened. If I failed at logic as badly as you I could claim her memory loss affirms Arya's version and exonerates Mycah.... Not to mention that it has no bearing on what happens to him. Or that she had already told Ned the truth.
  4. Fascinating discussion. As a layman my idea of a psycopath is basically framed by Alfred Hitchcock / Norman Bates so I connect it with the willingness to inflict extreme violence without having any normal emotional or moral restraints (psycopaths are serial killers in other words). Whereas sociopaths lack the normal emotional or moral restraints but have no particular interest in inflicting violence personally, just a total ruthlessness in achieving their goals and indifference to any suffering caused. So Ramsay and Biter are psycopaths, Roose and LF sociopaths. Seems I was wrong but it worked for me So a psychopath created a sociopath? All the damaged and abandoned Stark children need some love and care (Sansa, Bran, Rickon) but only Arya really needs therapy. Theon has a fractured personality and has suffered appalling abuse and Tyrion has been rejected and betrayed by all his family so that's my three.
  5. He refuses to condone or take part in the authorisation of Dany's murder as it is an affront to his honour and morals. He resigns the Handship for a time but he doesn't actually leave or abandon Robert. He's pretty easily side-tracked by LF giving him a "lead" on the Jon Arryn murder. The Trident is really just a quarrel, however nasty, and at this point he is still Robert's friend, intending to help him and uncover who killed Jon Arryn.
  6. Out of curiosity do you consider Joffrey, Sansa and Sandor equally guilty? I hope I don't need to point out that Sansa has no involvement in Mycah's death and has already told her father what really happened. It's a feudal monarchy though. Refusing to serve at the King request and breaking off a betrothal with the Crown Prince will have serious consequences. Plus he believes Robert is in danger from the Lannisters and that they have already murdered Jon Arryn. He's kind of stuck.
  7. Ok. I understand that you said from the outset that she only bares a small part of the blame. What we're really differing on is 1) how much she knew and divulged to Cersei and how much harm stemmed directly from that and 2) how realistic it was for her not to see Cersei as she truly was and understand the folly of her own actions. Taking 2) first, it's beyond obvious to the reader that Cersei is an enemy and that she cannot be trusted but we have the benefits of heaps of information that Sansa does not, an adult's reasoning capacity and an objectivity unmarred by puppy love for Joffrey and the heartfelt, overwhelming desire to live her fairy tale life at Court. I find her actions exasperating but more comprehensible because of her age, lack of maturity and experience and the bizarre song-like filter she sees the world around her through. It's frustrating to me that she talks to Cersei in lieu of Robert but not totally baffling. As for 1) all she knows is that her father is sending her away on The Water Witch. This information has a limited impact on events. LF betraying Ned and bringing the goldcloaks to Cersei is what sways the outcome. You could say that Ned would not move until his daughters were safely away so Sansa hands the tactical initiative to Cersei but this is wrong. He moves to have Joffrey taken into custody while his daughters are still in The Red Keep. That while Ned is being captured in the Throne Room, The Tower of the Hand is being stormed by Lannister guardsmen is because Ned got outthought and outplayed. He knows they are all in danger but Sansa is allowed to sneak out of her room and goes missing without him knowing? Arya is having a dancing lesson with Syrio without a single Stark guardsmen around instead of being surrounded by guards in Ned's quarters? These aren't good decisions by Ned. He badly underestimates how committed and ruthless Cersei is - and he trusts LF with far greater consequences than Sansa's trust of Cersei. I think we're meant to see how Sansa wrestles with the discrepancy between the world as it is and how she wants it to be. She's not quite a fantasist but she does have odd ideas about "songs" and her memory can be unreliable (the unkiss, telling Arya Mycah attacked Joffrey). What I think she is doing is recasting unpleasant events in a light which is easier for her to relate to and accept. It takes Ned's death for her to really see the world as it is and the people around her as they are. I don't think this is bad writing, it's part of her character development, though she is not a particularly likeable character in AGOT. You can see how she would rethink what happened to make it more comprehensible or recast it to seem how she wants the world to be. Nymeria did injure Joffrey: it's not fair that Lady paid the price but normally nice Cersei had a right to be angry. Her mother did kidnap Jaime's brother: it's not fair that he should kill her father's guards in retribution but that was nasty Jaime not nice Cersei. Etc... The original pitch for the series had Sansa as betraying House Stark. Although GRRM ditched that I believe there are echoes of that in Sansa's naïve view of Joffrey and Cersei and her attachment to them. In terms of the Stark downfall Ned, Cat and Robb all make decisions which have major adverse consequences. So do Balon, Theon, Roose, Ramsay, Walder Frey, LF, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey and Jaime through open opposition or betrayal. So do Varys, Pycelle, Stannis and Renly through inaction or irresponsibility. Ser Rodrik and Edmure make tactical blunders that have serious military and political consequences. Jon, Arya and Sansa? Not that I can see. Ned is moving to arrest Cersei - and relying on goldcloaks who LF has secretly secured for Cersei - while his daughters are both still in the castle. Once he's arrested how do they get to The Water Witch?
  8. Is it? That's a pretty bleak view. She didn't know what her father would do because he hadn't told her. The mistake is that Ned warns Cersei, ignores Renly and relies on LF for the Goldcloaks. Sansa knows nothing about any of these things... If he doesn't do those things events play out differently whatever she does or says to Cersei about leaving KL. Ned's already told Cersei he intends to tell Robert and that she should leave with her children before he gets back. All Sansa does is hand herself over. This she does and it clearly grinds your gears. But it doesn't make her responsible for events or revealing information she doesn't have. Ned is not getting out of KL because he will declare Cersei confessed the bastardy of all her children and that Stannis is Robert's heir. Stannis and Renly will still fight Joffrey. There's a butterfly effect of course but I don't think you can extrapolate House Stark's downfall, or survival, to Sansa being captured or not.
  9. I don't think that's right. He certainly damaged her marriage prospects but A Game of Thrones - Jon IV "Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father's eye she named it rape suggests she could have said it wasn't. And then there's Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" Frey. She was willing enough though tbf we are never told what happened to the four squires she was found with. To be fair she killed the stable boy in King's Landing and the Bolton guard at Harrenhall. These are kills out of expediency but neither are criminals and the cutting of the guard's throat bothers me as much as Daeron. The child soldier analogy is a good one as she has become desensitised to and accustomed to taking life. Arguably, the insurance salesman is a further step down this slippery slope as she is being taught to kill without understanding why (I'm not sure if she reasons out why the salesman is to die or perhaps she rationalises the act to justify it to herself). Taken out of context I love how this fragment reads. Eh, that's all. Tell that to Salman Rushdie She is kind of copying Ned in executing a deserter and, if not exactly listening to his last words, hearing him explain himself to Sam. But she gets it wrong. The point of the last words is to hear his final rebuttal or extenuating circumstances and Daeron says over and over again "the girl was willing". Logically, if there was no crime, then a forced oath to avoid death or castration is an oath he should be released from, not executed for breaking. Arya doesn't seem to give any weight to his last words and to be more motivated by the fact that he is abandoning the NW, and by extension Jon, and is angry with him for it. I know she never specifically references Jon but I always consider that an understood subtext.
  10. Arya wants to return to Winterfell, KL holds nothing she wants. That's a big difference. She also has no fondness for romance and songs and doesn't spin fantasies about living the stories of Prince Aemon The Dragonknight and Serwyn of The Mirror Shield. That's another huge difference in how they process what happens around them. They are different in character. Arya manages to overhear Varys and Illyrio plotting but has no understanding of what she is hearing and Ned dismisses her account as one of mummers practicing. And she's about to go with Meryn Trant and the goldcloaks when they come for her until Syrio stops her. It's true that she hates Joffrey because of The Trident and Mycah but she isn't betrothed to him and in love. She dislikes him for personal reasons, the opposite of how Sansa likes him for dreams fulfilled reasons. However unpleasant a shit Joffrey was being you have to acknowledge from Sansa's pov Arya does indeed attack Joffrey A Game of Thrones - Sansa I "I won't hurt him … much," Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher's boy. Arya went for him. Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince's head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa's horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion's Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, "No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it," but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey's head. Other than this he's prince charming around Sansa. Adult women have been known to look the other way or to dismiss it as an aberration when the guy who is usually charming to them suddenly shows a different side. This is pretty ugly btw. The man who attacked him fled. She doesn't go to the men who attacked her father she goes to the king..... except she finds him scary so she goes to the Queen instead. As far as she knows Cersei was angry after Arya and Nymeria injured her son and that's the only time Cersei has not been kind to her. There's no reason for her to believe the King and Queen are in opposition and that Cersei won't speak to Robert to grant her wish. It's naive but it's not as outrageously dumb as you seem to make out. She knows nothing to tell other than her father is sending her away on The Water Witch. I take it you mean Cersei and Joffrey Barratheon? I.E. The royal family Sansa is about to marry into. It's true that Sansa and Arya look at them differently but Arya is consumed with anger over Mycah and has no betrothal and wider in-law relations to try and put back on an even keel so can hate them with a passion. Sansa wants to repair relations so she...forgets...The Trident as an aberration. A little more than forget actually, more like reimagining a more palatable version A Game of Thrones - Sansa III Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them." "It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince." But this is how she processes the events and deal with the memories. Does she tell Cersei her father has bribed the goldcloaks to take Joffrey into custody and that he has written to Stannis to tell him to come and assume the throne? No. She has told her that her father is sending her home and that she wants to stay and marry Prince Joffrey. Ned, bless his cotton socks, has told Cersei he knows Joffrey is illegitimate!! Perhaps if he had told Sansa that she might have understood the situation and why the betrothal was being broken but, alas, she's eleven and not privy to her father's plans or his understanding of what is really going on..... They might have escaped, yes. Assuming they weren't chased down they would have reached White Harbour. And then they would have gone to Winterfell and been captured by Theon Greyjoy.
  11. She could have begged but he has broken a sacred Dothraki taboo and threatened the life of Drogo's child, "The Stallion That Mounts the World". It's hard to see this not damaging her relationship with Drogo and the Dothraki and as @GMantis said it would cause Drogo to lose face if he indulged her. Mercy for the man who threatened his son because his wife asked for it? That's not the Dothraki way, that's not a Khal's way, it's weakness. It's never going to happen. Absolutely everything? No, that encompasses, well, absolutely every possible action, however reasonable or unreasonable. Feudal rights and obligations are reciprocal though of course heavily weighted in favour of the King / Lord rather than the vassal but by threatening to cut her child out of her belly he has most comprehensively broken the feudal compact. Does she have a duty at this point? No. She might choose to intervene out of familial concern, mercy or forgiveness but Viserys is becoming or already is mad and just signed his own death warrant. It certainly affects her. For all his many and obvious flaws he has been her companion for all her life and the only family she has ever known. Her detachment also made me uncomfortable - it reminds me of the morbid curiosity that Sansa felt on seeing Gregor Clegane kill Ser Hugh of The Vale at The Hand's Tourney but Ser Hugh was a stranger while Viserys is Dany's brother. I think she looks back on Viserys with regret and guilt, not so much guilt that she didn't try harder to save him but that she flourished and grew in strength and influence on the Dothraki Sea while he withered away into an abjectly pitiable creature.
  12. I tend to think he is telling Ilyn Payne he would have killed her. Even Jaime has to know that cutting her hand off (as Cersei wanted Robert to allow/order(!)) would cause an almighty sh*tstorm, not least because Robert would have no difficulty working out who had done this and why - in defiance of his wishes - if a handless Arya was brought back into camp whimpering or found dead, having bled out from the wound. She spent half the night arguing with Robert over Arya's hand not Nymeria. Cersei isn't someone who likes being balked and the last time someone harmed her precious Joff - Robert striking him after he cut open the kitchen cat - she threatened to kill him if he ever hit him again. It seems unthinkable to us but if she really set her mind on it - half the night arguing - Jaime offing Arya and dumping her body in a river weighted by a couple of rocks gives her satisfaction and no one is any the wiser. It's risky but I can see it after precious Joff's injury. Oh, and Melara Hetherspoon has something to say about Cersei getting rid of people she has a grudge against if there's no one to see.
  13. She's eleven Of course she is self-centred but she is a goody two-shoes whose one act of naughtiness is to go against her father's instruction and prevail upon the Queen (in lieu of The King) to allow her to marry Joffrey. She can't possibly know open warfare is about to break out or that Cersei is planning to murder Robert and hold her hostage. Robert isn't the sharpest tool in the box but he doesn't see any of this coming. Why should an 11 year old be held to a higher standard of political understanding? And she knows that Robert is King and Ned is his hand. That's an important counterpoint to the Stark-Lannister feuding and should offer safety and stability. After all she is marrying into the Royal family not the Lannisters and Jaime fled after attacking her father. I doubt she sees her mother as a Tully rather than a Stark: should she see the Queen as a Lannister rather than a representative of the King? She can't possibly know Cersei is working to overthrow Robert and her father. There's no doubt that Sansa is written far less sympathetically than Arya in AGOT and the scales only fall from her eyes at the end but the issue isn't whether she is likeable or perceptive, it's that she's a naïve, sheltered, love-struck child and her understanding and awareness is governed by that. I mean, this is her after her father sends Beric rather than Loras after Gregor Clegane: A Game of Thrones - Sansa III Her father's decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she'd been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan's stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell. She had said as much to Septa Mordane as they descended the stairs from the gallery, but the septa had only told her it was not her place to question her lord father's decisions. That was when Lord Baelish had said, "Oh, I don't know, Septa. Some of her lord father's decisions could do with a bit of questioning. The young lady is as wise as she is lovely." He made a sweeping bow to Sansa, so deep she was not quite sure if she was being complimented or mocked. Septa Mordane had been very upset to realize that Lord Baelish had overheard them. "The girl was just talking, my lord," she'd said. "Foolish chatter. She meant nothing by the comment." Lord Baelish stroked his little pointed beard and said, "Nothing? Tell me, child, why would you have sent Ser Loras?" Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king's councillor smiled. "Well, those are not the reasons I'd have given, but …" He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of a cheekbone. "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." This is eleven year-old Sansa. It's how she sees the world and how she thinks about it. She doesn't just idly think this stuff to herself, she says it out loud to privy councillors. Roll your eyes or whatever you want but whether you think she should know better or not she doesn't. Not yet.....
  14. You're a strange one. She isn't culpable for the misery in Westeros because she didn't cause any of it. If she didn't exist the Houses would be using other pawns or hostages in their contests and the world would be just as bloody. She was born so she's culpable for people trying to take advantage of her as a hostage? Her brothers were murdered so she's culpable for people trying to use her for her claim? That's some horrible logic and misdirected blame there. In what way? She's an 11/12 year old with a crush on a handsome but unpleasant boy several years older than her and she overlooks his flaws due to inexperience, naivety and of how much she is enchanted by the prospect of her dreams and romantic songs becoming real. Seems pretty realistic to me.
  15. I'm not sure she even needed to give the order. Joffrey has accused Mycah and Arya of conspiring to attack him. No one wants to hear Mycah's version of events because they're high nobility / royalty and he's a commoner. Joffrey's arm was quite badly injured so any of the Lannister guards might have felt justified in taking retribution. I'm sure they would have been rewarded. The bigger question is what would have happened to Arya. Given she's The Hand's daughter the guardsmen and even The Hound would be unlikely to go so far. But given Cersei specifically argued with Robert to cut off Arya's hand it seems likely she took his refusal badly and persuaded Jaime to kill her instead. A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV "Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."
  16. Remember she does try and get him to put the sword away but he ignores her and then directly threatens her child. Viserys didn't just break a sacred Dothraki taboo, he pointed a sword at her stomach and threatened to cut Drogo's child out of her womb. There is no way back from this and no real reason Dany should try to intervene further. Once Drogo knows what Viserys has said - and his actions are easy enough to interpret - he's toast. So even if she lied about what Viserys said he's going to die right there. I just don't have any sympathy for him at this point or believe that Dany has any further obligation to try and save him. A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V "The blade … you must not," she begged him. "Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There's drink, food … is it the dragon's eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword." "Do as she tells you, fool," Ser Jorah shouted, "before you get us all killed." Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.
  17. Weird thread with some weird arguments from some certain folks. Quick recap: Joffrey was tipsy from the wine and trying to show off to Sansa. As he's a cruel little shit he showed his real self by bullying Mycah quite viciously. Mycah simply ran off the first chance he got. Sansa told her father what really happened and Joffrey lied through his teeth to his parents. This is all before Arya is found and brought before Robert on Cersei's orders. She tells the truth but as it's her word against Joffrey's, Ned brings out Sansa to confirm what happens. She panics and says she doesn't remember. She doesn't "take sides", she doesn't "cover for Joffrey", she just doesn't say anything. In the meantime Jaime, The Hound, Lannister and Stark soldiers have all been out looking for Arya and the former for Mycah too. Whether The Hound was ordered to kill him* or simply interpreted that as his duty as Joffrey's protector (having heard "from the royal lips" that Mycah had attacked him) he killed him rather than bringing him back for punishment. The only people who bear any responsibility are The Hound, Cersei and Joffrey. *Jaime makes it clear later on that Cersei wanted Arya punished and that if he had found her rather than Jory it's quite possible that he would have killed her and hidden the body. I think Cersei would likely use Jaime if she wanted someone dead and that The Hound took the initiative in thinking, correctly, that both Joffrey and Cersei wanted Mycah killed rather than returned for punishment. As it's his job to protect Joffrey and Joffrey accused Mycah of attacking him I think this was pretty straightforward for him.
  18. Beyond absurd. You know culpable means being at fault, right? It's literally what it means. If people fight over using her for her claim they are culpable for what ensues not her. She's a pawn, most of the time unwitting, all of the time a powerless captive looking for a way out.
  19. Old enough to know better about what? She has no idea about the paternity of Cersei's children or that her father has revealed to Cersei that he knows, making the whole situation incredibly dangerous. We have her pov where her thoughts reveal that she had no clue what was going on until Jeyne Poole is shoved into her room screaming "they're killing everyone". Her thoughts also reveal what she intends when she approaches Cersei, namely to be allowed to marry Joffrey, and that she feels guilty about disobeying her father (for once) but that's it: her father and the King are best buddies, not mortal enemies, so what possible consequences could she foresee? She's a naïve, sheltered 12 year-old who thinks she's living in one of the romantic songs she likes so much. She does not know better but learns the hard way in brutal fashion.
  20. I'll be charitable and say it's a meme at this point so a few people parrot the same in-joke. A meme isn't meant to be debated, just repeated for amusement, so whatever other people post to refute it is irrelevant and a little later the meme gets repeated. Trying to rationally and patiently deconstruct the meme just keeps the cycle going. "For the Watch" is the new "For Stannis the Mannis!". I never got that either but some people really adopted it big time. Rather like this. It's the exact same argument, really the same sound bite. It will fade eventually like "For Stannis!".
  21. Not Joffrey for lying about being attacked? Or Cersei for wanting Mycah killed for "his part" in injuring Joffrey? Or The Hound for actually butchering him while he was running away? But Sansa for saying "I don't remember"? If she tells the truth she completes Joffrey's humiliation, if she lies she condemns Mycah: so she does neither. As with the premise of this thread it's true Sansa is involved in a minor way but the real blame obviously lies with others.
  22. Remember she intended to go to Robert and get him to order Ned to let her marry Joffrey. But she was scared of loud, drunk, boorish Robert so went to Cersei as more approachable. Naïve? Sure. Willing to ignore the flaws in Joffrey's character out of puppy love and to ignore the flaws in Cersei's because most of the time Cersei acted like her idea of a proper Queen and showed her a kind face? Absolutely. Even an adult overcome with love and seeing their hopes and dreams dashed could be foolish and display poor judgment but she's a 12 year-old child not an adult and we should always bear that in mind. Not a lot would change. Ned would still send his best guards with Beric, warn Cersei to flee, ignore Renly's offer of assistance and advice to strike first and trust LF to bring the Goldcloaks in on his side. Ned would still be captured, Robert murdered and the Lannisters seize power. Robb would still raise his banners and come south to rescue Ned who would still be executed by a spiteful Joffrey, just without declaring his guilt in an effort to save his daughters. TWot5K would still rage and Robb be murdered at The Red Wedding. If Sansa and Arya had returned north to WF either they would have ended as Theon's prisoners and Sansa as Theon's wife as he fantasized before ultimately becoming Ramsay's bride; or they would have hidden in the crypts and be on the run as Bran and Rickon are. Stannis would still look to make Jon king in the North Lord of Winterfell and it's likely Robb, still believing Sansa and Arya dead or captive, would make Jon his heir. GRRM is taking House Stark down: in KL, at WF and at The Twins. Sansa's crush on Joffrey (the result of a betrothal arranged by the King and her parents) is not to blame.
  23. Terrible argument. Always has been, always will be. Baffling that it still gets raised. Nothing to see here people, move on...
  24. Not everyone falls in love at first sight. People grow on one another. As for Jon being drunk on teenage hormones or blinded by sex, his view of her changes long before they sleep together: A Storm of Swords - Jon II The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte's hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons. At a lord's court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he'd seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat. Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling . . . well, that stirred some things as well. But he was a man of the Night's Watch, he had taken a vow. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. He had said the words before the weirwood, before his father's gods. He could not unsay them . . . There's your sexual predator. A girl singing in a low husky voice and smiling at the man she is stirring things in. He even regrets he can't, i.e. shouldn't, sleep with her. Exactly, e.g. later on in the caves: A Storm of Swords - Jon V "Yes." His voice was thick. "First we'll live." She grinned at that, showing Jon the crooked teeth that he had somehow come to love. Wildling to the bone, he thought again, with a sick sad feeling in the pit of his stomach. He flexed the fingers of his sword hand, and wondered what Ygritte would do if she knew his heart. Would she betray him if he sat her down and told her that he was still Ned Stark's son and a man of the Night's Watch? Or at Greyguard: A Storm of Swords - Jon V If the Magnar takes Castle Black unawares, it will be red slaughter, boys butchered in their beds before they know they are under attack. Jon had to warn them, but how? He was never sent out to forage or hunt, nor allowed to stand a watch alone. And he feared for Ygritte as well. He could not take her, but if he left her, would the Magnar make her answer for his treachery? Two hearts that beat as one . . . They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it. Of course he cares for her and the knowledge that he will betray her and likely cause her death troubles him deeply.
  25. There's also the point that, as Jon spares her life when he captures her, she considers he already stole her: A Storm of Swords - Jon III And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." "I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat." From our pov she definitely pressures him for sex and he is conflicted because he is still a man of the NW and does not want to get too close to the enemy. He definitely wants to, though, that's obvious. The clincher is after the slaughter on The Fist is discovered and both The Magnar and Mance suspect Jon of being a spy but Ygritte vouches for him. The victim impact statement would be fascinating but it seems you would disregard all of it. Where is the harm to Jon?
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