the trees have eyes

On 2/28/2023 at 9:56 PM, Mourning Star said:

Dany’s old guardian’s sickness is described as “the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor” in contrast to Aemon’s time sick in Braavos where they can’t keep him warm.

The cycle of the seasons is irregular in Planetos but we are now in Autumn so Braavos is colder than it would be in Summer.  The climate is not fixed all "year" round and the seasonal swings are greater the further north you go.

It's entirely possible that Dany spent a few summer years in Braavos and that Willem Darry, who died of a wasting sickness in a hot Summer, presented very differently to Aemon, who died of extreme old age in a dank Autumn.

The author changing his mind between Tyrosh and Braavos is the most likely cause of the discrepancy / inconsistency theories.

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as the exaggeration hyperbolic absurd statements, yea, guilty as charged. I think it's fun to be silly and I don't wanna spend the day devoid of humor. I truly am not just trying to get people riled up, and if you thought I was I'm sorry. I'm just droll. I do particularly enjoy our conversations.

I meant stir things up as in shake things up to get people thinking, often by being provocative  to challenge their views or assumptions (not bad in itself, depending in how far it goes) not to get people riled up so my bad in miscommunicating and no need to apologise.  I understand it's your style and it's usually engaging even if I often completely disagree which is why I debate you but it is often hard to know what you genuinely want to make as a point or are merely saying for effect.

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Psychotic darkness was definitely an exaggeration lol. Sorry, I'll try to do better when talking to you 

But like after she compared Jon to Theon, Robb (rightly) cut her out of his life (hyperboles still working, sry. This is hard...), she was really alone at that moment. Not losing her final kid like that, but kinda.

Sansa as well, she seemed really taken back. Like despite everything she placed all her trust in Lannister words and when news came of Sansa

This is clear  but as with so much, it's where we disagree.  Catelyn in ACOK and ASOS is someone who becomes deeply unhappy, worn down by grief, worry and despair.  She has become depressed and notes that people avoid her as she has become poor company (and, well, she did release the Kingslayer so she is practically persona non grata), understandable enough, but she is eking out an existence rather than living a life and is a hollowed out version of herself.  Grief and worry do that but they don't turn her into a psycho.

When Robb writes Sansa out of his will it is as if he is giving her up for dead, a further hammer blow when she is still trying to process that her daughters are not going to be returned to her safe and well. She tries to dissuade him and above all to keep her own children in the line of succession not have them supplanted by a bastard.  He didn't listen to her about Theon so she makes damned sure he hears her objection over legitimising Jon because this cannot be undone.  She's right about the potential consequences even though she misunderstands Jon's character but we have Ramsay and Domeric to illustrate the worst case and Stannis later wooing Jon to show what she fears.

In any case Robb does not "abandon" her because of her "darkness".  He does what most young men do, which is shake off the apron strings.  He rode south as a boy, son and heir of Lord Eddard Stark, with his mother as his chief counsellor, but he's now King of The North and Riverlands and he doesn't want her interfering.  The main reason he plans to send her to Seaguard is that interference, most notably releasing the Kingslayer, that most of his Lords see as a huge strategic blunder that will cost hundreds, if not thousands, of lives in battle.  How many other wives and mothers are with the Army?

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Again, choose your semantic but something was chipped away from her stone heart. (Again I'm really sorry lol, but this is the only way I know how to talk)

Eh.  You would be better to say something caused her heart to harden further or part of her beating heart to harden and turn to stone.  After all, she doesn't start as Lady Stoneheart / Mother Merciless / The Hangwoman.  She needs an epic Greek tragedy, an awful death consumed by madness and two days dead in the river before resuscitation in a decaying body to become this corruption of herself.  Not just some bad news.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Just like Snow becoming heir and Sansa married off pushed her to further psychotic darkness.

Do you think this skin bit is a reflection of her arc?

First, I don't see her despair at Sansa's forced marriage or her opposition to Jon being promoted above her own children in the line of succession as pushing her to darkness, let alone psychotic darkness, let alone further psychotic darkness. 

I do believe she hated the man who she believed murdered her two young children, one already crippled, yes.  She also rejects the "token" in revulsion.

It's hard to have a conversation when the other person resorts to exaggeration and hyperbole, enjoys contrarian and absurd statements (the reader not knowing Brienne was trying to fulfil her oath, those dying in performing their duty being guilty of abandoning their duty because of "failure", etc).  You make some good observations and some serious points but they tend to get lost in the noise and it's hard to know what you really believe and want to say rather than being droll or just saying stuff to stir things up and see what falls out.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They had five minutes of conversation, she appeared compromised. Hence the reason she was forced to choose sword or die with her companions. This is not how Catelyn behaves pre-resurrection, however it is post. The darkness that Cats experienced compounded with Briennes possible guilt is character growth, commonly referred to as an arc. 
I feel like we're going in circles here.

You think? 

Five minutes of conversation where Brienne was injured, off-balance and unprepared.  She thinks it's so obvious that she was doing what she promised to do that it's pointless explaining any more because she has been led to believe it's a foregone conclusion she is going to be hanged.  The only surprise is that the leader of this band, known variously as The Silent Sister, Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman or Lady Stoneheart is actually her liege Lady and the charges, that she abandoned her duty, rather than that she's a filthy Lannister who has been pillaging The Riverlands.  Neither's true but she is taken aback and doesn't really know how to respond.

It's an arc alright, I said so up thread, but it's not character growth.

And the whole point of justice is to establish guilt or lack of it, not hang people out of suspicion or anger.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I thought it was funny 

You would.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It often can imply incompetence

Or not.  It can imply orders given without enough information to make them feasible, it can imply changing circumstances or unforeseen developments or evenly matched forces, it can imply a competent commander nonetheless being outgeneralled, or bad weather or bad luck.

Brienne is not hanged for incompetence.  Catelyn would not have hanged her at all.  Any more than Rhaegar or Robb would have hanged Dayne & Co or Rodrik for failure, any more than they would have deemed them oathbreakers or guilty for failure.  If they would have it would have been monstrously unjust and quite obviously not in keeping with their characters.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Roberts king. This is what Sandor said btw. Arya threw lions tooth in the water, she wasn't accused of beating him. (And come on, what are they gonna do?)

This is all wrong.

First, Cersei accuses Arya of attacking Joffrey because this is the version of events that Joffrey has told his parents and everyone else:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s only a guess, but I think a Ser Whent married Danelle Lothston, starting House Whent at Harrenhal.  My guess is the sigil of House Whent adopted the Lothston bat.  

So unless the Whents who inherited Harrenhall were descended from Mad Danelle there is no relevance. 

Or do you want to argue Mad Danelle was presenting the Lothston family madness that has now been passed by the Lothstons to the Whents, Tullys, Starks and a bunch of other Houses in Westeros? 

There's a "mad" Hightower, aka Malora the mad maid, and Mace Tyrell is married to Alerie (nee Hightower) so that would mean all the Tyrells, from Garlan to Wylas, Loras to Margery are at risk of presenting inherited madness.  And all the other families Hightowers have married into and the families that those children have married into.

The Targs are set up as at risk of inherited madness due to a long period of inbreeding.  Really they should have some physical or mental abnormalities as certain of the later Habsburgs did rather than presenting as normal before flipping but that's the way GRRM went.  No other family has any inherited madness in story.

I get you are pointing out connections and language references as curiosities but that's all this is.

2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Sansa will do the bad.  It is only a matter of time before she murders Robin.  There is hope yet.  Somebody with honor can come along and protect Robin from Sansa.

You mean like how someone brought him down from The Eyrie, rescuing him when he was about to fit on the narrow ice bridge?

Who was that person with honour who came along to protect him?

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So does the chicken.

You do know the chicken's not processing any information and making any decisions, right?  However droll it is to compare Brienne's efforts to reflex muscular actions, it's just silly.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you'd like. 

I don't.  I was interested in how far you would extend your glib analogy.  Looking for someone in hiding and when the trail has gone cold isn't easy but it's not unthinking either.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes! It's fucked up and kinda unfair but thems the breaks. Jon Conn failed and was exiled, in like the French rev mad generals got killed for a military blunder. 

They swore to do so and so, they didn't. They definitely failed in their duty, I wouldn't go so far to call them traitors although the Committee of Public Safety did.

How silly.  Scapegoating is a thing but it's just a way of assigning blame to someone expendable.  Failure does not imply guilt or betrayal, and blaming those who fail is just a way of offering up targets to popular anger that shield those really in power from the consequences of failure.  Or for crazed despots to vent their fury like Aerys. 

Most French generals were Ancien Regime noblemen who were, often correctly, suspected of a lack of loyalty for the increasingly rabid and revolutionary government.

In any case Brienne is still looking for the girls, both of whom are alive, whereabouts yet to be discovered.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We don't have her thoughts, and she got lucky that Tyrions marriage and stuff ended but if it didn't it seems like she'd let Mrs. Lannister be

We don't have her thoughts but you can draw conclusions about what she would do? Convenient

What we do know is she's a prisoner on her own and with the agreed prisoner swap no longer in force.  When she regains her freedom she does the only thing she can, go looking for them, specifically "Mrs Lannister".  We most certainly do have her thoughts on this.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's the way he governs. Prince of the blood was struck and the prince wasn't declared guilty.

The Hound follows Cersei's and Joffrey's orders in this not Robert's.  If the Prince's word is law and is reinforced by Robert not saying "no" then Arya is guilty too.  Except of course this is not how Robert acts or what happens. 

Sandor is not exonerated by Robert's negligence which is why Beric, a knight acting in the Riverlands under a charge from Ned, Robert's Hand, to do justice in Robert's name, tries him based on Arya's accusation.  Sandor knows he has no evidence of Mycah's guilt and that he killed him on Joffrey's word alone and that Arya is a witness to what happened.  Sandor has admitted guilt so he chooses trial by combat.  Robert had the power to ignore "doing justice" when it was complicated and did not give a damn about Mycah.  Beric is a very different paladin-like character.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They chose Arya's because it was concrete, Sandor was still going to face trial. And he choose trial by combat because otherwise it'd obviously be a farce like any other Westerosi trial (Tyrions, dunks)

I disagree.  The smallfolk pour out all their frustrations and Sandor becomes the target of all their grievances but he correctly points out that he is not Gregor and did none of these things.  None of them can legitimately lay a charge against him and Beric sees this.  Only when Arya accuses him of murdering Mycah is he tried.  There is no follow-up trial for all the other stuff because none of that has any substance - and with Sandor being at KL with Joffrey while it was happening he has an obvious alibi.  It's why they let him go afterwards.  Beric does not abuse his position or power to settle scores.

Despite your cynicism there is justice even if it's from a Knight who is effectively now an outlaw.  UnCat's judicial lynching of Brienne is intended to show the darkness taking hold and the corruption of an ideal.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely. Kangaroo courts at court, it's the middle ages. But in the woods with outlaws? The fact that Hunt is an occupying soldier is enough guilt.

Not for Ned, not for Catelyn and not for Beric.  Hostages held for ransom or prisoners for exchange would be much more likely.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

If you mean Catelyn's arc is one of suffering, deepening gloom and ends in tragedy, then yes.  If you mean Catelyn herself is cruel and dark and life's experiences exacerbate this then I profoundly disagree.  She is herself until The Red Wedding.  Since then she is different and it's not just how she looks.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

GRRM painted her with a cruel streak on purpose 

Sigh.  I never really understand the "Catelyn is the worst person in the world because she was mean to Jon" argument any more than the thread of all threads

but she makes one cruel remark to him when Bran is lying crippled.  That is the argument for her "cruelty" and for seeing her hanging Pod and Brienne as just a progression of her demonstrably cruel nature?

That's some pretty weak sauce to go with your chicken.  Enjoy!

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whatever 

Ok? Word?

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For the sake of justice or truth? Yea dont hang Tyrion. For the sake of hit the Lannisters any way you can because they're gonna murder your family and kidnap Sansa. Yeah, probably wouldn't have hurt.

Justice.  Yes, that's what we're talking about and why her treatment of Brienne is appalling.

Tyrion.  Well, she didn't have a crystal ball and if she had she would have done better to tell Ned to wise up and not tell Cersei everything or trust LF than to hang Tyrion and his serving man.  That would have just led to Jaime killing Ned in KL along with his men....

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Cat wasn't sailing smooth until AegonF. She arrested Tyrion, yelled at her dad, freed Jaime. But again I don't think any of this is a big deal (like Arya and her soup). But she definitely has been progressively going darker since her doom premonition in the first book.

What?  Her actions are not "dark" until she kills Aegon Jinglebell in grief and rage.  We're in her pov, we see her despair and then see her lose her touch with reality when Roose Bolton kills Robb. 

Arresting Tyrion was an entirely rational action not "dark" or "cruel"; she never "yelled at her dad" at all, maybe you are mistaking the show for the books; and she freed Jaime in order to secure the return of her daughters, you know, the bit that's germane to how she later treats Brienne.  This is not her character getting "darker", it's the reality of events turning against the Starks.  She is herself until The Red Wedding.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's like a chicken with her head cut off. Shs going places, but it's not far.

She is following what leads she has.  They amount to little more than rumour but a headless chicken?  She makes the best decisions possible with the limited information she has.  Are the BWB looking for Arya headless chickens too?

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's a huge point. She swore to defend Renly, swore to return Jaime safely. She didn't.

Yes. Definitely.

But they're dead so it's not like they're gonna get punished.

So someone who dies in battle fighting for their Lord is guilty of breaking their oath even though they are actually fulfilling their oath while fighting and just happen to die?

I know you like to be contrarian but this is really nonsensical.  Was Rodrik a traitor for losing WF to The Ironborn and being betrayed by Ramsay?  After all he failed in his duty.

You may doubt Brienne's ability to find the girls but so what?  Catelyn sent her to KL to conduct an agreed prisoner swap but the "terms" she agreed are impossible to fulfil.  Doesn't make Brienne guilty of bad faith or "guilt by failure".  She is following through on her duty by attempting to find and protect them.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And like I said she wasn't planning on offing the Imp when she found out about his marriage, so it is possible for her to be dissuaded.

What?  When Brienne and Jaime arrive at KL she is a prisoner and Tyrion is in a cell as an accused regicide.  He later escapes and Jaime sets Brienne free to search for Sansa, now also wanted as a potential conspirator in regicide.  How is she dissuaded from carrying out her duty to find and protect the girls?

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well if it's like that then she's totally under Cats leadership and shouldn't baulk about bringing in the kingslayer 

Why?  She is attempting to recover Catelyn's daughters.  She knows Jaime doesn't have them or know where they are.  He specifically told her that the Boltons did not have Arya so she would not go off on the wrong track (something the BWB of course already knew) but she knows Jaime has tried to fulfil his part of the deal, at least by allowing Brienne to search for them as a proxy.

She's then hanged by unCat for association with Jaime.  UnCat, one of whose last memories in life was Roose Bolton saying to Robb "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" and thrusting his sword through his heart.  UnCat is about vengeance for the betrayals done to her and Brienne's "betrayal", not a betrayal at all, sees her and her associates on the end of a rope.  What happens is she doesn't yell "sword"?

Brienne is injured and off-balance and she knows Jaime can't help return the girls.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert decreed Mycah the guilty party, so Sandor was acting in the law. That's called not guilty.

Did he?  Cersei wanted Mycah dead and Arya punished.  Robert called Arya to tell her version of events and Arya and Joffery contradicted each other.  Sandor heard from "the prince's own lips" that Mycah attacked him.  Robert is negligent and removes himself from the situation in half-assed Robert style.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Besides, my point was the farce of Berics trials are the same as Stonehearts

But they're not.  The guilty are punished not the innocent.  UnCat is a witness to Merrett and Petyr Pimple's involvement.  When Sandor is captured the smallfolk accuse him of all of Gregor's actions which he denies and Beric acknowledges.  Only when Arya accuses him of killing Mycah and he admits to it is there a valid charge and a trial.  The Hound chooses trial by combat because he expects to win - which he does, despite killing a wholly innocent Mycah.  Brienne and Pod just end up dangling form a rope.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hunt did war crimes against the Riverlands. Obviously guilty.

Pod fought in Blackwater. Less guilty.

Anybody the brotherhood would come across that's not Brienne but carries orders from Tommen is not only guilty but probable to do more.

You can rationalise this as "war to the knife" and anyone on the other side can be killed on sight but then you acknowledge that trials are unnecessary and just execute people out of hand.  Which is effectively what a kangaroo court and farce of a trial amounts to anyway, just with a fig leaf and pretence of legitimacy.

Hunt was a household knight of Tarly's not one of the Bloody Mummers or Lorch / Gregor's reaving parties.  Beric required evidence of Sandor's wrongdoing before moving for a trial.  What evidence of Hunt's wrongdoing was sought?  None, it's just team colours and guilt by association.

The BWB are darker.  Lem even dons The Hound's helm despite what Rorge did at Saltpans wearing it.  The symbolism is not accidental.  It's part of the tapestry of gloom and decay and horror that GRRM gives us in AFFC and unCat's decaying body and vengeful actions are part of that.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How about as GRRM would say, bittersweet.

What is bittersweet about being hanged for betraying an oath you did not betray?  Or being tortured into agreeing to trick a man into becoming a hostage / prisoner likely bound for execution, when you know that man has tried to assist in fulfilling his bargain and helping you fulfil your oath?

It's dark and dirty, not bittersweet.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No I wasn't trying to say that.

So I'm not sure what your comment about Cat judging her father's actions with Lysa's teenage pregnancy was to illustrate.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not the same, but someone who was never cruel imo is less likely to do cruel stuff even if pushed to the limit.

Saying hurtful things is not a clue that someone may torture people or hang people after sham trials.  That's a non sequitur.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And I don't have an issue with Catelyn. I love Cat! She's just a horrid stepmom.

I haven't heard that one in a while.  She is not his stepmom, foster mother, hostess offering him board and lodging as a guest.  In a pseudo-medieval world there simply is no relationship between them and Ned, raising his bastard along side her trueborn children, is offering her and House Tully a very large insult. 

That doesn't translate well into the modern view of family arrangements but it's realistic for the "time".  She would not expect to ever have to see or interact with him but Ned keeps him close for obvious reasons.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But she probably should have

There's lots of reasons not to but for someone of Caelyn's character lack of evidence of guilt is the overriding one.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's darker, sure. So is Tyrion Arya and Moonboy for all I know. Doesn't make them a different character tho

Depends what you mean by "different".  Tyrion is a fair-ish comparison as he too is betrayed by those around him (really only Shae) and took revenge on her and his father.  But his conduct in general is more problematic over a longer timeframe - taking Tommen hostage and threatening whatever done to Alyya(?) would be done to him, Symmond Silvertongue ending up in a bowl of brown - before he snaps.

Catelyn was true to herself up until the last moments of her life at The Red Wedding when she cut Aegon Jinglebell's throat.  You seem to see that person and her resurrected self as all the same, just part of a natural progression under pressure.  I see it as more of a break, perhaps a psychotic break as her last moments were so traumatic, with that influence on her personality and memories hardened (as with Beric) by her resurrection.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

I don't doubt her commitment or her heart.

She almost died, saved by a boy.

So you don't doubt that her commitment is to fulfilling her oath to Cat.  Ok, we agree.  Except you challenged the idea that the reader knows that Brienne's actions vindicate her.  This is contradictory.

If, as your comment on her actions at The Crossroads Inn seems to imply, you are questioning her ability to deliver on that oath then that's something else entirely.  Were the KG who died at The Tower of Joy obeying Rhaegar's last command somehow guilty because they failed?

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Return them. 

What does that mean? To Stoneheart? Back to the pad with Bolton? It's so ambiguous, and if I was angry Catelyn I wouldn't respond well to ambiguity either 

Return them to her.  There is no ambiguity in that at all.  With Catelyn dead Brienne meant to find and protect them.  A wild goose chase and a fool's errand perhaps but one in which she was sincere.  Except Catelyn is not dead so there's a twist.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Right but Berics justice was the same. Sandor was kinda innocent and shoulda died but Berics sword broke. And when Cat takes command a trial for the Freys is just a nod.

Sandor was not innocent.  Arya specifically accused him of the murder of Mycah of which he is guilty.  He claimed he was duty bound to obey as Joffrey alleged Mycah had attacked him.  This is what Beric tries him by combat for.

Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podric are guilty of nothing.  They are hanged for suspicion and association with the wrong side.

The Freys hanged are guilty of involvement in The Red Wedding.  We see that with Merrit Frey in the ASOS epilogue with Petyr Pimple and Merrett Frey.

Brienne did not get a "sweet deal" because she survived a hanging as she has done nothing to be punished for.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Cat doesnt know Jaime is arguing for castles to surrender instead of war or that when he went to KL Sansa wasn't. It's understandable that Jaime should answer to Cat. Did she go hard in getting what she wanted? Sure. Did any one die yet? 

And she admitted her boys were gone, betrayed by the foster child. Said goodbye to her dying father, and judging his treatment of her sister. It started off pretty fucking dark.

I've no idea what you are trying to say here.  If you are saying unCat is hanging Brienne and co in order to force Brienne to bring her Jaime, then yes, I follow. 

If you are saying that this is part of a pattern because of a) a cruel statement to Jon and b) a bit of exposition to the reader that reveals the reason for Lysa's deep unhappiness and resentment of her family and are somehow equating these actions with embracing the end justifies the means and hanging children as a bit of persuasion then I think that's a bit silly.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

She threatened and tried to stop Jon when he was saying goodbye to his possibly dying brother, then told him she wished he was dead. And you know she meant it. That lady could be super fucking cruel.

So you have an issue with Catelyn.  Ok.  But this is not factual or objective at all.  She never wishes Jon dead.  She wishes her son was whole and well and she effectively tells Jon she would have him trade places with Bran.  I believe that 100% just as I believe she would have preferred any other child than her own to suffer that fate.  A cruel comment is not the same thing as hanging someone.  Does this really need to be argued.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Briennes innocent. Maybe.

Hyle? He was a knight for Tarly. Definitely guilty of crimes against the Riverlands.

Pod? He was the Imps squire. By helping Tyrion he was hurting Stark. It's a little more ambiguous, but like I said I don't think Catelyn likes ambiguity 

The Catelyn Tully who took Tyrion, whom she believed arranged the attempted murder of her son (kudos LF for misdirection) intended to have him tried by Robert.  That person did not hang him an his serving man and would not have hanged three people for being on the other "side". 

Resurrected unCat is something different and darker however you try and portray pov Catelyn as as a ruthless child-killer for being mean to Jon.  Catelyn =/= Cersei.

On 2/22/2023 at 9:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Wait, what?  What is that eyeroll meant to imply?  That of course Catelyn would murder children?

Leaving aside the conjectural hypotheticals Catelyn of course never harms any children and never harms Jon. 

UnCat hangs Pod, why exactly?  Because he is Brienne's de facto squire (actually Tyrion's but he's acting more or less in this capacity) and he is guilty by association.

On 2/22/2023 at 9:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Wode is an old English word meaning: mad, crazy,  or insane.

So we have a Wode who is with the Whents, Cat's maternal line.

And in the same castle, predating the Whents, are the Lothstons.  The most famous being the red haired, Danelle Lothston, known as Mad Danelle.

What is the link between the Lothstons and the Whents, though?  Is there any relevance to Danelle Lothston being mad.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:08 PM, Hugorfonics said:

She obviously may kill kids, she wishes Jon croaked after all.

Nah.  She is cold and distant towards him because he is not her son and she makes one particularly unpleasant remark to him when Bran is lying crippled in a coma, the gist of which is she would have preferred it if Jon had been crippled in his place.  Wishing the life-changing accident that befell her favourite son had befallen someone else is not the same as wishing that person dead and being a clear and present threat to his life that she "may" act on. 

What we know is that she expected Ned to raise his bastard out of her sight not in front of her face.  I believe you're mistaking her for Cersei here.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:40 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which is one of the reasons why I think Jaime is going to be hanged.

Yup.  If she'll hang Brienne and Pod, she'll not want to hear what Jaime has to say or let him swear a second oath to return her daughters to her.  Question is, will Brienne turn into the new "Kingslayer" and decide that unCat has to be stopped and that doing the right thing is more important than her oath of fealty.  I wouldn't put it past GRRM....

On 2/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

The "good side" in her is vastly diminished, and seems to be tied solely to her faith in life rather than her significant personal empathy as well.

The "bad side" in her is drastically intensified, to the point that she isn't anything like Catelyn was in life, as @the trees have eyes alluded to regarding her approach to "trials." It's more a vengeful spirit possessing a corpse than a version of Cat at this point, and you can bet that the physical decay of Lady Stoneheart is meant to reflect her mental and moral decay.

The Cat-Brienne-Jaime intersect is particularly interesting as GRRM is playing with character arcs.

On the one hand we have Cat's tragic story which appeared to end at The Red Wedding but is given new life with Lady Stoneheart.  That name is revealing enough on it's own and doesn't need much explanation.  It might be too much to see her as The Furies unleashed but I see this version of Catelyn as not just a more war-weary and bitter version of herself (like Lysa became) but one who lost something of herself in those two days before she was resurrected and is more ruled by the clearer memories of the end of her life than the fuzzier ones of her earlier life.  This borrows a lot from Beric's exposition and he of course had multiple resurrections and memory losses / reinforcements of his last objective in life but I think it offers insight into what I term unCat.

Then we have Jaime, the boy who wanted to be a dashing knight and the next Arthur Dayne but ended up, in his own thought, becoming The Smiling Knight instead.  Brienne has become the catalyst for him to consider honour, oaths and the purpose of knighthood.  It's no accident that he gave her a sword named Oathkeeper so she could attempt to fulfil his bargain with Catelyn and return her daughters to her bearing her late husband's sword (ok, half of it, but that's the best he could do).  Whether he will find it any easier to do the honourable thing and stick to the ideals of knighthood is open to question: the threat to destroy Riverrun and send Edmure's baby to him from a trebuchet suggests it's work in progress at best.  Brienne, who began this transformative experience and who he goes with unquestioningly, is now leading him to a meeting with unCat...

And Brienne, the most straightforward, honest and loyal character in the book who lives up to the ideal of knighhood better than any knight is about to find out how hard it is always to do the right thing when all your choices are bad.  Stick to an oath even when your Lady orders you to do something "vile" or break your oath?  To an extent it parallels Jaime in KL in Aery's KG.

What is the right thing to do here and who is attempting to do the honourable / right thing or "do justice"? 

GRRM at his best.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Do we?

Do we, the readers, know that Brienne is true to her purpose?  Yes of course we do.  Why question such a clear and obvious statement?  It's the whole purpose of her "knight's quest" through the Riverlands.  What part of her pov chapters leads you to doubt it?

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

When destiny will eventually knock on their door in the form of Gregor and Amory?

Amory had a close encounter with a bear iirc.  If unGregor comes calling Brienne will behave as she did at the Inn at The Crossroads when Rorge and co were about to unload on the smallfolk there.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

She obviously trusts Jaime, it's not impossible to think they'd fall back into Lannister hands.

And I thought you dismissed someone else's post as conjecture?  What we know is that Jaime secured Brienne's release from KL and sent her looking for Cat's daughters precisely because he was trying to fulfil his part of the bargain to return them to her in exchange for his release.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

What was Briennes plan?

Are you really suggesting that as she doesn't have a definite plan about how to keep them safe we should doubt her intention to do so?  It really shouldn't be hard to accept that she intends to find and protect them and will deal with the situation as she finds it.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It's not immediate. It's a long list of sketchy things.

Brienne is recovering from serious wounds suffered in protecting smallfolk from The Bloody Mummers.  Riverlands smallfolk whom Catelyn Tully would have owed her a debt of gratitude and rewarded for bravely protecting.  Instead she's ushered, off balance and unprepared, into a farce of a trial with unCat, the hanging judge, where her guilt is assumed by association and she has to prove her innocence, a notoriously hard thing to do and why our criminal justice system works on the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" and returns verdicts of guilty and not guilty.  It's more appalling for the reader because we know Brienne's trustworthiness and loyalty.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

But words are wind and Cat forced her to choose action. And Brienne did wind up choosing.

What unCat did was hang Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne for no crime at all.  Brienne chooses not to let Podrick die.  She is watching him kicking on the end of the rope when she decides and yells "sword".

unCat has a new purpose for her sworn sword.  Vengeance against the enemies who betrayed her and brought ruin on her family.  Catelyn had more hope and sent Brienne to recover her daughters. It's much darker.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely a darker Cat then what we're used to, but ask Snow and he'd say she's regularly dark.

Are you seriously comparing a wife, shamed by her husband's public humiliation of her, being cold towards the bastard son raised along with her own with.....hanging innocents out of anger and callousness?

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

But the brotherhood is still feeding and looking out for the vulnerable, at least in the Riverlands so we see both sides of "un"cat like we did prestoneheart.

How would she stop them?  Why would they follow her if she attempted to?  Something of Catelyn Tully remains, it's why the BWB look to her for leadership (plus the whole resurrection thing being a bit awe-inspiring for simple folk) so she's hardly likely to.

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Good call. Very similar. Eerie. 

That's quite good, actually 

57 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's looking for her kids, with a parchment stating she's working for Tommen, armed with a perverted Ice and mouthing off about the Kingslayer.

There is no version of Catelyn "Cat" Tully Stark Stoneheart that would let that slide.

Cat would let her speak and explain her actions which, as the reader knows, completely vindicate her.

UnCat experienced betrayal in the last moments of her life and immediately leaps to the conclusion that Brienne has betrayed her too.  Brienne's "trial" is far more Lysa at The Eyrie than Catelyn, who reminded Lysa that Tyrion was her prisoner and who confided to Brynden that she was unsure of his guilt.  UnCat is a travesty of Catelyn.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree, that's why I put crazy in quotation marks.

Oh, I know.  I was agreeing with you then leveraging the same post to elaborate on Lysa.

41 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She isn't. You can make the case that during the final moments of her life she had a psychotic episode, but that is not the same as being crazy, and it had a very clear external cause as opposed to being mad due to genetics.

Which makes her end all the more poignant.  Overcome by grief and despair, she's one step away from clawing her own eyes out 

36 minutes ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

And now she is back, fueled by a single desire. Justice.

I'm of the view that Cat is now "unCat", further heaping indignities in GRRM's savage treatment of her.  With Beric we see that he loses part of himself and his memories but that what motivates him most strongly and that what he holds to the closest is what he felt in the last moments of his life - a duty to protect and serve the realm.  With unCat I fear that what she'll hold to most closely is the loss she suffered and the desire for revenge.

Whatever GRRM is up to it looks appalling enough: mushrooms growing on her face, having to clasp both hands over her throat to manage an approximation of speech because of how deeply the blade cut into her vocal cords.  She has only been resurrected the once but Thoros refused because of how long she had been dead and Beric sacrificed himself to do it.  The BWB appear darker with her at the helm.  As we see with her hanging Brienne, I'm not sure how much of the real Catelyn is left.

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Both of them went 'crazy' due to external events. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Tullys are genetically predisposed to madness. People should cease and desist with these arguments that are clearly made in bad faith.

Have to agree in sentiment but I'm not convinced Lysa is mad.  She's certainly emotionally unstable, self-centred, foolish, capricious and temperamentally ill-suited for power but is that enough to be deemed crazy?  It's easy to refer to her actions sometimes as crazy or label her as "batshit crazy" but the same is true of Cersei.  Neither is well-adjusted and both have glaring character or behavioural flaws but neither is "mad".

Lysa's conduct is largely driven by her deep unhappiness.  A childish infatuation with Petyr Baelish led to an accidental pregnancy, a forced termination and an unhappy marriage to a much older man who knew of her indiscretion.  She clings to Sweetrobin and smothers him because he is all she has.  Jon Arryn's plan to foster the boy with Stannis led her to murder him and flee to The Eyrie at LF's instigation but he's been playing her like a harp for years.  Her resentment of her family for her forced marriage and her resentment of both Catelyn and Sansa for being the object of LF's affections lead her to fiddle in The Eyrie while Westeros burns but this is a bitter, unhappy woman enjoying being her own mistress for the first time in her life.  Her judgments and actions are atrocious but they are understandable.

Traumatic events leave a mark and unhappiness makes people bitter, distrustful and dangerous.  Genetics have nothing to do with Lysa's behaviour.  But that's not as much fun as the "Tully/Stark madness" chew toys currently in vogue.

On 1/16/2023 at 2:13 AM, Sydney Mae said:

The stress triggered the madness in Cat.  Ned's public execution triggered the same illness in Arya.  Something very stressful will happen to Sansa and she might break too.  Their blood make them vulnerable to madness. 

PTSD is not hereditary.  Arya, arguably, has a form of PTSD. 

Cat went mad at the very end, but that was just the final act in the classical Greek tragedy of her life.  We meet a happily married powerful noblewoman with five children and progressively: her middle son is crippled and rendered comatose, her husband and daughters are separated from her and then arrested / taken hostage, her husband is executed, her father dies perhaps of cancer, her elder daughter is married to a mortal enemy and her younger daughter disappears, her two younger sons are murdered and, finally, her last child is murdered in front of her face.  Sophocles could not have done any more to her.

On 1/16/2023 at 11:02 AM, StarkTullies said:

There's a sudden explosion of madness threads which are obviously joke threads, but it seems that this one is actually real?

It's not, at least no more or less than the others.  It's just a circle jerk for some people.  Establishing contrarian positions and then pretending the "alternative facts" are legitimate is apparently entertaining and empowering.  We all got to get our fun times somehow I guess.

On 1/16/2023 at 1:10 PM, SeanF said:

Terms like "madness" and "insanity" are bandied around far too readily.

There is nothing to suggest that Catelyn suffers from schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, or major clinical depression.

However, Catelyn does get increasingly depressed as her life goes from bad to disastrous.  Her husband and (as far as she knows) two sons, and a daughter, have all been murdered.  Sansa is a prisoner, and then Robb is murdered in front of her. She finally snaps.  At the point that she kills Jinglebell, she is almost certainly insane in the legal sense. 

But, it's not because mental illness runs in her family.  Her psychosis is triggered as a result of all the horrible things that get done to those that she loves. 

Exactly.  But some folks have chosen a side and anything that makes the other side look bad is good and anything that riles the other sides' supporters is extra special fun. You'll have more luck convincing a MAGA crowd to drop election denial.

10 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

True, many will find it hard to trust the Freys.  But if we use the same idea, many would find it very hard to ever trust the word of a Stark.  Robb Stark broke his oath to Lord Walder Frey.  Jon Snow broke his vows to the Night's Watch.  So in this, I say both families will have a terrible time earning trust again.  Both families violated something considered sacred. 

Robb broke a promise to marry a man's daughter; he made restitution by Edmure marrying one of Walder's daughters in his place.  Walder Frey slaughtered thousands of men and murdered dozens of guests from noble families in The North and Riverlands under his own roof.

What harm did Robb really do the Freys other than a bit of injured pride and what possible restitution can the Frey family make after The Red Wedding?

You are drawing an utterly repugnant false equivalence that beggars belief and it's absurd to see people engage in this nonsense.

As for trust: why does one of the Mormont girls write to Stannis to say they will recognise no king whose name is not Stark?  Why does Stannis offer to legitimise Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell?

This stuff is not hard to pick up from the books, really it's not, you might try reading them some time 

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Yes. To all of the black brothers his behavior and his intent to attack the Boltons is madness. 

Which part?  After he read out the pink letter his intent to attack the Boltons appears exactly as it is: a move to gain the tactical advantage in view of Ramsay's threats.  Or do you mean his behaviour in sending The Watch to Hardhome?  Maybe  you think Chett and his pals a fine bunch of heroes for planning to murder Mormont and the other officers for "the madness" of their orders too.  At some point the penny has to drop you're backing the wrong side.

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He's not putting Cersei before Tyrion either. He's choosing Tommen.

Ultimately.  And only maybe - as part of trying to become a better person.  But he's at Riverrun not safeguarding Tommen from Cersei's influence.

But when Cersei denies she had anything to do with the dagger I don't think she is lying and doing it out of a fear Jaime will choose Tyrion or Tommen over her.  Tyrion's transgression is far too great and outweighs anything else.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It wasn't much of a gamechanger when Tyrion lied he killed Joffrey

Actually it does mark their estrangement and Jaime turns his back on him for good.  I can't think of him regarding Tyrion either fondly or with regret after this.

He's not putting Tyrion before Cersei here in any case which seems to be the heart of whether Cersei would need to lie to him or not.  I still can't see that she does.

On 1/29/2023 at 3:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

I'm pretty sure that Jaime cares more for Tyrion than he does for Joffrey. And Cersei knows this. Jaime loved her, and was the seed provider, but he was never allowed to form a bond with them. The sole son he just tried to become some type of father figure to was Tommen, right before Cersei sent him away to the RL.

True but Joffrey is Cersei's son so it's not so much pitting Jaime's love for Tyrion against his love for Joffrey as against his love for Cersei.  And murdering her son (as is believed) is surely a gamechanger if there was any doubt as to whether Jaime was going to ride off into exile with Tyrion.

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime is seeking for a justification why Tyrion would murder Joffrey.

She knows Jaime has a fondness and weakness for Tyrion that is in her opinion irrational.

So your view is that it was Cersei that uttered the line about it being a mercy to kill Bran / putting down injured animals etc leading to Joffrey hiring the catspaw?

I mean it's possible and she's blaming Robert just like she blames her maid for "shrinking" her dress in the wash rather than acknowledging her middle-age spread.

But to think she would consider Jaime would be angry with her for an action that indirectly led to Tyrion being in danger that he came through unscathed is a pretty light straw against the pretty heavy bale of Tyrion having (as she believes) murdered her and Jaime's son.  I just don't see a reason for her to lie in this scenario.

If she did send the catspaw then she might have more reason to hide this from Jaime but Tyrion having murdered her son outweighs this by far and makes it very hard to see why she would need to hide an action that was not intended to harm Tyrion and, though it made his life uncomfortable, did not.

If anything - and as  Jaime wonders - revealing that she did send the catspaw might give Tyrion a / another motive for killing Joffrey (to punish her rather than get revenge on Joffrey).  Which in turn would surely help to overcome Jaime's "strange affection" for Tyrion and help her to convince Jaime to kill him for her - as she later attempts to persuade him to do in White Sword Tower in return for a blow job 

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime is seeking for a justification why Tyrion would murder Joffrey.

She knows Jaime has a fondness and weakness for Tyrion that is in her opinion irrational.

I'm not a narcissist, not a pathological liar and don't have a brother who's always had my other brother's back. You approach Cersei as a rational normal person. She isn't. She never was.

She loathes Tyrion so cannot understand why Jaime does not as well.  That's not really that unusual.  Is she self-centred, manipulative and narcissistic?  Yes, but I don't see how lying here benefits her.  At best I can see that she (not Jaime) might think that the dagger became a reason for Tyrion to kill Joffrey so she disassociates herself from the event and projects blame onto Robert for inspiring Joffrey, similar to how she disassociates herself from Melara's "fall".

Interestingly you've made me consider that the catspaw plotline may still have some mileage - in the culmination of the Lannister siblings tangled relationship.  I still think it unlikely though: Cersei accepting responsibility for inspiring Joffrey to hire the assassin, leading to Tyrion's arrest, leading to Tyrion's murder of Joffrey, only really has relevance if Cersei admits it to herself as no one else can know this and it only really has relevance for Cersei's personal tragedy (as she morphs into Catelyn with all her children dying) because no one else gives a damn about Joffrey. 

This doesn't seem likely and the reveal about who did kill Joffrey is likely to have more of an impact on their relationship.

Cersei is not "normal" as in "well-adjusted" but neither is she irrational (unless you're positing her misuse of power as a secret Targ developing full-blown Targ madness rather than a standard case of megalomania?).

3 hours ago, Aebram said:

Ironically enough, the "both barrels" aspect of it is one reason why I don't trust it. If an author writes a mystery subplot into a story, does it make sense that he will have some characters simply blurt out the answer? It seems too obvious. It seems like it could be a misdirection.

Such an important plot element ought to have a strong resolution, not just a few characters guessing at it.

That's a stretch.  You seem to be looking for reasons to reject the text rather than assessing what the author is trying to do.  If he wants to misdirect then Tyrion's conclusion is enough.  Instead he gives us two pov characters who come to the same conclusion.  No, there's no trial or smoking gun, no deathbed confession, but that doesn't mean we should assume what the author shows us and then reinforces with a second confirmation is false.

He's on the record as saying that readers might come up with solutions that were more pleasing than his own and this seems exactly what he has in mind.  I feel you simply don't like the solution or the reveal while a deeply-layered and complex scenario planned years in advance and still hidden (the enigma of Mance Raydar) seems more satisfying.  Whether you feel the solution ought to be stronger or more satisfying this is what he came up with.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not the morals of the assassination attempt on Bran's life that Cersei would lie for. She doesn't care about that. But it was such an amateuristic sloppy execution too (so nothing to claim in pride), and it got Tyrion arrested by Cat. Cersei doesn't care about Tyrion, but she knows Jaime does. 

But this is long after Tyrion returned to KL quite safe and sound.  If he was still a prisoner in The Eyrie I could see why she might want to hide it from him but not at the time Jaime talks to her.  At that point Tyrion is a convicted regicide and parricide and Cersei asks Jaime to kill him for her.  I don't see her worrying about his reaction to her having put Tyrion at risk, however inadvertently.  And after all she would have been protecting Jaime and herself by trying to get rid of the witness to their incest.

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Automatic response. She does it even in her own head during the walk of shame. She's a pathological liar due to her narcissism who cannot be seen as being responsible for anything "bad" that happened, and by extension Joffrey. At the most she can admit at some point during the walk of shame is that she agreed to do the walk of shame. 

In part.  She remembers that Melara "fell" down the well when they were children but even in her head she does not admit she pushed her.  The reader has to infer that.  But the author presents us with a very clear picture that she did.  Given she is a pov and truly believes that Tyrion killed Joffrey I would at least expect her to gnash her teeth that her ploy with the dagger did not get Tyrion killed and thus spare Joffrey.  But the author gives us none of this, just Tyrion and Jaime reaching the conclusion that it was Joffrey.  And then it's never mentioned again.  Except on this forum  

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no way she's going to allow Jaime to be angry with her over the brother she despises.

That brother has killed her son.  Jaime's son.  He was found guilty in Court and Trial by Combat and I really don't think Cersei is going to worry about Jaime being angry with her over Tyrion.   After all Joffery was both her and his son and she might expect him to feel something for Joffrey (though he does not). 

Forget we're talking ASOIAF for a moment: your son is murdered by your partner's brother.  Are you really going to worry your partner might get angry with you over something you may have done that put him at risk a few years ago or are you going to be cursing that he wasn't killed before he could harm your son?  If your partner is more angry about you accidentally putting his brother at risk (he survived unharmed) than he is about the murder of your son you are 100% getting a new partner.

31 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Cersei was aware of the change; that would give her a reason not to trust him as much as she normally would.

Tyrion is a criminal and kinslayer wanted for murdering her and Jaime's son.  He knows secrets that will kill them both in a heartbeat (Tommen and Myrcella too).  The dagger doesn't even register on the scale for her and is not something she needs to hide from him with Tyrion being Westeros's Most Wanted.  Assuming she ever had a reason to hide it from him when they were travelling from WF to KL for however months.

Cersei is not honest I give you.  But that doesn't support Cersei sent the catspaw and it certainly doesn't outweigh the textual explanation the author gives us with both barrels.

11 hours ago, Aebram said:

Since Cersei's character (or lack thereof) has been called into question, I will add one piece of evidence.

First she merely suggests that Robert probably said it, as if she was groping for an excuse for Joffrey's behavior.  A moment later, she suddenly recalls that he did say it, not once but "often."  If he had said it many times, wouldn't she recall it at once?  Is her sudden "recollection" actually a lie?

The sudden switch from "most like" to "often" reminds me of the switch from "we were alone" to "us and the children" in chapter 72.  Later in that chapter, she tells Jaime that she had lied to him "a thousand times." It seems that she's quite willing to lie in order to protect herself and her children.

But why lie about this?  Cersei is with Jaime when he throws Bran out the window.  What does she need to keep hidden from him?  After all they travel together all the way back to KL from WF.  When Cersei has that conversation with Jaime it's after the Lannisters have won and after Stannis has declared their incest to the realm to no effect.  Who tried to kill Bran Stark, a boy believed murdered by Theon Greyjoy, is of no importance. Why does she need to lie or hide anything from Jaime?

We gain her as a pov in AFFC and learn all about Melara Hetherspoon and "Robert's children".  There's simply no reason to speculate that she was somehow behind the dagger but is lying to Jaime and hiding it from us and herself.