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the trees have eyes

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Posts posted by the trees have eyes

  1. 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

    Not a deadline per se, but if you are paid money to write a series then I would think it is expected by the publisher that the series will be finished at some point (barring exceptional circumstances). The publisher won't want an incomplete series.

    IIRC he pitched a trilogy.  Assuming he uses the same publisher he's delivered them five large ASOIAF novels (two, ASOS and ADWD published in two volumes), a number of side novels, and a number of history/mythos books.  We can debate whether publishers care more about artistic integrity or commercial profit but I think it's moot: they've got more from him than they could possibly have dreamed.  No doubt he signed new and amended contracts for all the other works and if he does produce TWOW and ADOS they will coin it even more but he's already a cash cow for them.

  2. 2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

    It may be reasonable to expect that the contract was with regards to a specific series. However if the publisher is making enough money regardless they likely won't care to enforce it, so long as something is produced, as you say, and it makes them money.

    I believe GRRM was contracted to deliver a certain amount of material prior to publication.  It's why we have all the TWOW sample chapters from a few years back.  Nothing about the delivery of a final completed manuscript though as how can you put a deadline on a creative process?

  3. 18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

    So do you think Ser Illyn is more responsible for Ned's death than Joffrey?

    The application of modern standards of personal responsibility and legal notions such as refusing a superior's order if it clashes with the individual's conscience are used by some posters to comprehensively misinterpret the story and the actions of characters living in a feudal, medieval monarchy.

    Whether it's the political system, the judicial system, the marriage system, the duty and relationship between a Lord and vassal, individuals are expected to buck the system in accordance with a modern point of view.  It makes for some strange views and both pointless and tedious discussions.

    Ned quite obviously kills Lady himself and has her remains taken back to Winterfell in order to prevent Cersei having her butchered and skinned.  Once the king has spoken - and publicly - this will happen unless Ned rebels and commits treason...... All he does is give her a more dignified end and prevent her corpse from being mutilated.

    Blaming him for something he tried to prevent and to shame Robert out of ordering is plain daft.

    19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

    I believe it was this line that pushed me over the edge of Eddards type disgusting.

    Lord above.  The passage reads like this:

    A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

    There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.
    Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some  terrible blow struck from above.
    "You rode him down," Ned said.
    The Hound's eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog's-head helm. "He ran." He looked at Ned's face and laughed. "But not very fast."
    The scene finishes on Sandor's line.  The Hound quite deliberately leads Ned to believe he has killed Nymeria but it's a trick and he laughs at Ned's reaction.  There is nothing to say Ned was indifferent to Mycah's fate, indeed he seems shocked, and the only thing to be disgusted by is Sandor's actions and cruel trick.  You know this perfectly well.
  4. Progress reports on TWOW have been coming out for best part of a decade so don't get your expectations up for anything any time soon.  ADWD was published in July 2011 and a lot of the material for winds was supposed to have already been written at that point.  If he's about 3/4 done after 11+ years then hit me up in 2027 about a publication date :P

  5. To the OP, in general terms, no, but there is a wide readership so that's like asking how long's a piece of string.

    Tyrion is written quite sympathetically to start before turning darker; the initial sympathy carries him a long way.  Jaime is written as a monster from the moment he throws Bran from the window but GRRM is consciously playing with the idea of redemption so Jaime appears differently as the story goes on and we get his pov as he struggles with doing the right thing: he's far from good but we have a more sympathetic view of him than to start.

    Tywin and Cersei are written as antagonists without any sympathetic qualities and without any redeeming character development.  Indeed Cersei appears worse as we learn of her childhood murder of Melara Hetherspoon and see her take part in Qyburn's tortures.  She is consciously imitating Tywin and seeking to outdo him in ruthlessness so they are very similar.  As some people like good villains there is niche fan approval for both of them (as there is for Roose Bolton).

    Even if someone "likes" Tywin and despises Cersei I'm not sure that implies sexism - it would depend on their reasons.  It could simply be in terms of effectiveness: Tywin was an efficient Hand for Aerys and won TWot5K while Cersei is a hot mess in terms of judgment and conduct with even Kevan and Jaime, her closest family, realising she is a disaster in a position of power.

  6. 13 hours ago, Aldarion said:

    3) Ramsay hates the word "bastard" - but Theon, having been a "Reek" under Ramsay, will have learned it to be the highest insult. And the letter is frankly silly in its repetition of "bastard".

    He also wouldn't use "crows" as an insult (whereas Mance would have).

    Ramsay has been legitimised while Jon has not.  He has no reason to be touchy about his lack of status any more and It's quite possible that he is simply gloating and gratuitously insulting Jon.

    Crows could point either way: to the letter being from someone else or to Ramsay's general disdain and insults for the NW.  You have to figure that if only wildlings ever refer to the NW as crows then this is a clear and obvious evidence of forgery in itself and that seems too big and simple a mistake to make.

  7. 15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

    Clegane was the one who swung the sword but Sansa's like contributed to the death of the kid. 

    Sansa said she didn't remember what happened.  If I failed at logic as badly as you I could claim her memory loss affirms Arya's version and exonerates Mycah....

    Not to mention that it has no bearing on what happens to him.  Or that she had already told Ned the truth.



  8. On 10/23/2022 at 7:03 AM, cytherea said:

    There isn't one! It's the same thing under diagnosis. They're both regarded as ASPD.

    Fascinating discussion.  As a layman my idea of a psycopath is basically framed by Alfred Hitchcock / Norman Bates so I connect it with the willingness to inflict extreme violence without having any normal emotional or moral restraints (psycopaths are serial killers in other words).  Whereas sociopaths lack the normal emotional or moral restraints but have no particular interest in inflicting violence personally, just a total ruthlessness in achieving their goals and indifference to any suffering caused.  So Ramsay and Biter are psycopaths, Roose and LF sociopaths.

    Seems I was wrong but it worked for me :)

    On 10/23/2022 at 11:34 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

    We can point directly to what caused the Hound's mental issues.  His abusive brother.   

    So a psychopath created a sociopath?

    All the damaged and abandoned Stark children need some love and care (Sansa, Bran, Rickon) but only Arya really needs therapy.  Theon has a fractured personality and has suffered appalling abuse and Tyrion has been rejected and betrayed by all his family so that's my three.

  9. 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

    I agree, but Ned made the choice to abandon Robert later on anyway when he ordered the strike against Dany.  So Ned was already willing to turn his back on Robert, and Robert would have shrieked and wailed, but ultimately I don't think Robert would have stopped him.

    Anyway, I said I would have supported Ned's hypothetical decision to turn his back on Robert (from a moral sense), not that I think that would necessary have been a wise thing to do.

    He refuses to condone or take part in the authorisation of Dany's murder as it is an affront to his honour and morals.  He resigns the Handship for a time but he doesn't actually leave or abandon Robert. He's pretty easily side-tracked by LF giving him a "lead" on the Jon Arryn murder.

    The Trident is really just a quarrel, however nasty, and at this point he is still Robert's friend, intending to help him and uncover who killed Jon Arryn.

  10. 9 hours ago, Roswell said:

    Joff instigated it. He took child's play and made it ugly.  Guilty.

    Sansa kept the truth and stayed silent to back Joff.  Guilty.


    Out of curiosity do you consider Joffrey, Sansa and Sandor equally guilty?

    I hope I don't need to point out that Sansa has no involvement in Mycah's death and has already told her father what really happened.

    3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

    Sure, I would have supported Ned turning his back on Robert right then and there.  Ned didn't want this position at all; he went with the intention of sorting out the corruption in the court, and going home wouldn't have helped that.  He also should have ended Sansa's engagement after seeing what a little monster Joffrey was.  Probably the smartest he could do- if he still wanted to help the realm but also keep his family safe- was to send his daughters back but continue on himself.

    It's a feudal monarchy though.  Refusing to serve at the King request and breaking off a betrothal with the Crown Prince will have serious consequences.  Plus he believes Robert is in danger from the Lannisters and that they have already murdered Jon Arryn.  He's kind of stuck.

  11. 10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    I agree with everything.

    And this is why I said that the lion share of the blame should go to Ned and then Catelyn. But Sansa does play her part on it, like every Stark other than Rickon.

    Ok.  I understand that you said from the outset that she only bares a small part of the blame.  What we're really differing on is 1) how much she knew and divulged to Cersei and how much harm stemmed directly from that and 2) how realistic it was for her not to see Cersei as she truly was and understand the folly of her own actions.

    Taking 2) first, it's beyond obvious to the reader that Cersei is an enemy and that she cannot be trusted but we have the benefits of heaps of information that Sansa does not, an adult's reasoning capacity and an objectivity unmarred by puppy love for Joffrey and the heartfelt, overwhelming desire to live her fairy tale life at Court.  I find her actions exasperating but more comprehensible because of her age, lack of maturity and experience and the bizarre song-like filter she sees the world around her through.  It's frustrating to me that she talks to Cersei in lieu of Robert but not totally baffling.

    As for 1) all she knows is that her father is sending her away on The Water Witch.  This information has a limited impact on events.  LF betraying Ned and bringing the goldcloaks to Cersei is what sways the outcome.  You could say that Ned would not move until his daughters were safely away so Sansa hands the tactical initiative to Cersei but this is wrong. He moves to have Joffrey taken into custody while his daughters are still in The Red Keep.  That while Ned is being captured in the Throne Room, The Tower of the Hand is being stormed by Lannister guardsmen is because Ned got outthought and outplayed.  He knows they are all in danger but Sansa is allowed to sneak out of her room and goes missing without him knowing?  Arya is having a dancing lesson with Syrio without a single Stark guardsmen around instead of being surrounded by guards in Ned's quarters? These aren't good decisions by Ned.  He badly underestimates how committed and ruthless Cersei is - and he trusts LF with far greater consequences than Sansa's trust of Cersei.

    11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Not because of her character, but it seems bad writting.

    Cersei did not used a mask and presented herself as a good queen to Sansa. At that moment it was more than clear that the Lannisters were after the Starks. Lady was killed at Cersei's demand, and Ned was attacked by Lannisters guards. Sansa is giving her father schedule to the people that just mugged him a few days ago...

    I think we're meant to see how Sansa wrestles with the discrepancy between the world as it is and how she wants it to be.  She's not quite a fantasist but she does have odd ideas about "songs" and her memory can be unreliable (the unkiss, telling Arya Mycah attacked Joffrey).  What I think she is doing is recasting unpleasant events in a light which is easier for her to relate to and accept.  It takes Ned's death for her to really see the world as it is and the people around her as they are.

    I don't think this is bad writing, it's part of her character development, though she is not a particularly likeable character in AGOT.  You can see how she would rethink what happened to make it more comprehensible or recast it to seem how she wants the world to be.  Nymeria did injure Joffrey: it's not fair that Lady paid the price but normally nice Cersei had a right to be angry.  Her mother did kidnap Jaime's brother: it's not fair that he should kill her father's guards in retribution but that was nasty Jaime not nice Cersei. Etc...

    The original pitch for the series had Sansa as betraying House Stark.  Although GRRM ditched that I believe there are echoes of that in Sansa's naïve view of Joffrey and Cersei and her attachment to them.

    11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    One thing we do know is that Sansa played her part on the Stark downfall, as little (or big) as it was.

    In terms of the Stark downfall Ned, Cat and Robb all make decisions which have major adverse consequences.  So do Balon, Theon, Roose, Ramsay, Walder Frey, LF, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey and Jaime through open opposition or betrayal.  So do Varys, Pycelle, Stannis and Renly through inaction or irresponsibility.  Ser Rodrik and Edmure make tactical blunders that have serious military and political consequences.  Jon, Arya and Sansa?  Not that I can see.  Ned is moving to arrest Cersei - and relying on goldcloaks who LF has secretly secured for Cersei - while his daughters are both still in the castle.  Once he's arrested how do they get to The Water Witch?

  12. 47 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Don't really care to be honest...Truth is usually ugly.

    Is it?  That's a pretty bleak view.

    48 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Yes, and this put her and Arya in danger.

    She didn't know what her father would do because he hadn't told her.  The mistake is that Ned warns Cersei, ignores Renly and relies on LF for the Goldcloaks.  Sansa knows nothing about any of these things...  If he doesn't do those things events play out differently whatever she does or says to Cersei about leaving KL.  Ned's already told Cersei he intends to tell Robert and that she should leave with her children before he gets back.  All Sansa does is hand herself over.

    52 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    If Sansa had sense she would also be angry, if not over Mycah death, at the very least about Lady's death, or Jory, or the fact that her father was attacked in the streets and now can barely walk.

    This is the point... She ignored too many events.

    This she does and it clearly grinds your gears.  But it doesn't make her responsible for events or revealing information she doesn't have.

    56 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Other chance is that without Sansa, Cersei does not force Ned into a public confession, then it doesn't end with his execution, and then Robb trades Ned for Jaime, and the Starks remain somewhat strong and united.

    We will never know.

    Ned is not getting out of KL because he will declare Cersei confessed the bastardy of all her children and that Stannis is Robert's heir.  Stannis and Renly will still fight Joffrey.  There's a butterfly effect of course but I don't think you can extrapolate House Stark's downfall, or survival, to Sansa being captured or not.

  13. On 10/17/2022 at 10:17 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

    He comitted a crime, rape or not and since the act was without the lord’s consent, it is a rape.

    I don't think that's right.  He certainly damaged her marriage prospects but 

    A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

    "Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father's eye she named it rape
    suggests she could have said it wasn't. 
    And then there's Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" Frey.  She was willing enough though tbf we are never told what happened to the four squires she was found with.
    On 10/17/2022 at 11:43 PM, Nevets said:

    You do realize that the total number of people she has killed by choice is . . . two.  Both of whom were criminals.  Deserters are criminals and his original offense is irrelevant to this discussion.  Her other victim, Raff, was a war criminal.  I don't agree with her actions, but she is hardly a serious public safety threat.

    What she needs is a safe, secure environment away from the Faceless Men, and preferably a mentor to help her through some of her issues.  Obviously, such an environment is difficult to find in Martinland.  Mentors could include someone like Brienne, but there are other possibilities; just someone she will respect and listen to.

    To be fair she killed the stable boy in King's Landing and the Bolton guard at Harrenhall.  These are kills out of expediency but neither are criminals and the cutting of the guard's throat bothers me as much as Daeron.  The child soldier analogy is a good one as she has become desensitised to and accustomed to taking life.  Arguably, the insurance salesman is a further step down this slippery slope as she is being taught to kill without understanding why (I'm not sure if she reasons out why the salesman is to die or perhaps she rationalises the act to justify it to herself).

    On 10/20/2022 at 3:43 PM, The Sleeper said:

    she proceeds to savagely violate the customs of the Dothraki and then proceeds to assault sovereign states. Not that I really blame her for it. 

    Taken out of context I love how this fragment reads.  Eh, that's all. :)

    On 10/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Craving Peaches said:

    I don't think that's strictly true. Where I live, blasphemy is not a crime. If I went to a country where it was a crime, committed it there and then returned home, I would not be guilty of blasphemy under the laws of my home country. I would be guilty under the laws of the other country. If the punishment for the crime of blasphemy in that country was death, a person acting on behalf of the other country could not just execute me in my home country for blasphemy. They would have to try and have me extradited (which would likely fail).

    Tell that to Salman Rushdie :(

    She is kind of copying Ned in executing a deserter and, if not exactly listening to his last words, hearing him explain himself to Sam.  But she gets it wrong.  The point of the last words is to hear his final rebuttal or extenuating circumstances and Daeron says over and over again "the girl was willing".  Logically, if there was no crime, then a forced oath to avoid death or castration is an oath he should be released from, not executed for breaking.  Arya doesn't seem to give any weight to his last words and to be more motivated by the fact that he is abandoning the NW, and by extension Jon, and is angry with him for it.  I know she never specifically references Jon but I always consider that an understood subtext.

  14. 34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Arya was 9...and showed way more awareness than Sansa. 

    Arya wants to return to Winterfell, KL holds nothing she wants.  That's a big difference.  She also has no fondness for romance and songs and doesn't spin fantasies about living the stories of Prince Aemon The Dragonknight and Serwyn of The Mirror Shield.  That's another huge difference in how they process what happens around them. They are different in character.

    Arya manages to overhear Varys and Illyrio plotting but has no understanding of what she is hearing and Ned dismisses her account as one of mummers practicing.  And she's about to go with Meryn Trant and the goldcloaks when they come for her until Syrio stops her.  It's true that she hates Joffrey because of The Trident and Mycah but she isn't betrothed to him and in love.   She dislikes him for personal reasons, the opposite of how Sansa likes him for dreams fulfilled reasons.  However unpleasant a shit Joffrey was being you have to acknowledge from Sansa's pov Arya does indeed attack Joffrey

    A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

    "I won't hurt him … much," Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher's boy.
    Arya went for him.
    Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince's head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa's horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion's Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, "No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it," but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey's head. 

    Other than this he's prince charming around Sansa.  Adult women have been known to look the other way or to dismiss it as an aberration when the guy who is usually charming to them suddenly shows a different side.

    53 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    That is limits for how dumb or self centered even a kid can be,

    how dumb, must someone be to go and tell on something he is doing in secret

    Not even kids can be that dumb.

    This is pretty ugly btw.

    55 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

    She already knows that people she knew her whole life were slain. Ned was attacked in the streets not even a week before.

    The man who attacked him fled.  She doesn't go to the men who attacked her father she goes to the king..... except she finds him scary so she goes to the Queen instead.  As far as she knows Cersei was angry after Arya and Nymeria injured her son and that's the only time Cersei has not been kind to her.  There's no reason for her to believe the King and Queen are in opposition and that Cersei won't speak to Robert to grant her wish.  It's naive but it's not as outrageously dumb as you seem to make out.

    1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

    she goes and tells on him?

    She knows nothing to tell other than her father is sending her away on The Water Witch. 

    1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Arya was even younger than her, had even less pratice in a court and was able to see the true nature of the Lannisters

    I take it you mean Cersei and Joffrey Barratheon?  I.E. The royal family Sansa is about to marry into.  It's true that Sansa and Arya look at them differently but Arya is consumed with anger over Mycah and has no betrothal and wider in-law relations to try and put back on an even keel so can hate them with a passion.  Sansa wants to repair relations so she...forgets...The Trident as an aberration.  A little more than forget actually, more like reimagining a more palatable version

    A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

    Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."
    "It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."
    But this is how she processes the events and deal with the memories.
    1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

    I've never told my uncles and the boss of my father what he called them on his privite time, even as 7 years old, it was obvious that nothing good would come of that...

    Does she tell Cersei her father has bribed the goldcloaks to take Joffrey into custody and that he has written to Stannis to tell him to come and assume the throne? :rolleyes:

    No.  She has told her that her father is sending her home and that she wants to stay and marry Prince Joffrey.  Ned, bless his cotton socks, has told Cersei he knows Joffrey is illegitimate!!  Perhaps if he had told Sansa that she might have understood the situation and why the betrothal was being broken but, alas, she's eleven and not privy to her father's plans or his understanding of what is really going on.....

    1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Sansa's actions in the end carry weight and she is responsible in part for what happened to her and Arya. Even if Ned had failed and be executed, she and Arya could be safe in White Arbor.

    They might have escaped, yes.  Assuming they weren't chased down they would have reached White Harbour.  And then they would have gone to Winterfell and been captured by Theon Greyjoy.

  15. 9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

    But afterwards, should she have done something more to try and at least reduce his suffering?

    She could have begged but he has broken a sacred Dothraki taboo and threatened the life of Drogo's child, "The Stallion That Mounts the World".  It's hard to see this not damaging her relationship with Drogo and the Dothraki and as @GMantis said it would cause Drogo to lose face if he indulged her.  Mercy for the man who threatened his son because his wife asked for it?  That's not the Dothraki way, that's not a Khal's way, it's weakness.  It's never going to happen.

    9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

    you could argue Daenerys, as his sister and vassal, was obliged to do absolutely everything she could to try and prevent his death or at least minimise his suffering. Had she done everything she could?

    Absolutely everything?  No, that encompasses, well, absolutely every possible action, however reasonable or unreasonable.  Feudal rights and obligations are reciprocal though of course heavily weighted in favour of the King / Lord rather than the vassal but by threatening to cut her child out of her belly he has most comprehensively broken the feudal compact.

    Does she have a duty at this point?  No.  She might choose to intervene out of familial concern, mercy or forgiveness but Viserys is becoming or already is mad and just signed his own death warrant.

    3 hours ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

    Detachment is definitely a better word for it, thank you. I still think it's unhealthy for her to react this way though. And I do think this is supposed to tell us something about her mental wellbeing and her actions later on in the series.

    I agree. I didn't mean the "if something is wrong with Daenerys." thing as judgment, more concern. I just think that her witnessing her brother, who has been with her her whole life, get killed in such a brutal way did affect her.

    It certainly affects her.  For all his many and obvious flaws he has been her companion for all her life and the only family she has ever known.  Her detachment also made me uncomfortable - it reminds me of the morbid curiosity that Sansa felt on seeing Gregor Clegane kill Ser Hugh of The Vale at The Hand's Tourney but Ser Hugh was a stranger while Viserys is Dany's brother.  I think she looks back on Viserys with regret and guilt, not so much guilt that she didn't try harder to save him but that she flourished and grew in strength and influence on the Dothraki Sea while he withered away into an abjectly pitiable creature. 

  16. 1 hour ago, GMantis said:

    I think we can trust Jaime own assessment of the situation. At that point in his life he was content to be led by Cersei and do . anything for her in the name of loveThe only question is whether he'd only cut off Arya's hand or kill her.

    I tend to think he is telling Ilyn Payne he would have killed her.  Even Jaime has to know that cutting her hand off (as Cersei wanted Robert to allow/order(!)) would cause an almighty sh*tstorm, not least because Robert would have no difficulty working out who had done this and why - in defiance of his wishes - if a handless Arya was brought back into camp whimpering or found dead, having bled out from the wound.

    43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

    Things I do for love. Lol, it's more like one specific thing, right?

    It's probably just Jaime assuming he knows Cersei wants because he's just a walking sword who doesn't think things out.

    She probably was going to say I want Nymeria but had to settle for Lady, I doubt Lannister would risk it all over Arya

    She spent half the night arguing with Robert over Arya's hand not Nymeria.  Cersei isn't someone who likes being balked and the last time someone harmed her precious Joff - Robert striking him after he cut open the kitchen cat - she threatened to kill him if he ever hit him again.  It seems unthinkable to us but if she really set her mind on it - half the night arguing - Jaime offing Arya and dumping her body in a river weighted by a couple of rocks gives her satisfaction and no one is any the wiser.

    It's risky but I can see it after precious Joff's injury.  Oh, and Melara Hetherspoon has something to say about Cersei getting rid of people she has a grudge against if there's no one to see.

  17. 6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Sansa ignored everything around her, and acted too self-centered... Sansa blindness is inexcusable. She does not carry the lion share of the blame that some put on her. But she is responsible for part of it.

    She's eleven :huh: Of course she is self-centred but she is a goody two-shoes whose one act of naughtiness is to go against her father's instruction and prevail upon the Queen (in lieu of The King) to allow her to marry Joffrey.

    She can't possibly know open warfare is about to break out or that Cersei is planning to murder Robert and hold her hostage.

    Robert isn't the sharpest tool in the box but he doesn't see any of this coming.  Why should an 11 year old be held to a higher standard of political understanding?

    6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Sansa already witness Joffrey threat Arya with a sword, Cersei calling for Lady execution, she knows that Ned was attacked on the streets and wounded and that Jory was killed.

    And she knows that Robert is King and Ned is his hand.  That's an important counterpoint to the Stark-Lannister feuding and should offer safety and stability.  After all she is marrying into the Royal family not the Lannisters and Jaime fled after attacking her father.  I doubt she sees her mother as a Tully rather than a Stark: should she see the Queen as a Lannister rather than a representative of the King? She can't possibly know Cersei is working to overthrow Robert and her father.

    There's no doubt that Sansa is written far less sympathetically than Arya in AGOT and the scales only fall from her eyes at the end but the issue isn't whether she is likeable or perceptive, it's that she's a naïve, sheltered, love-struck child and her understanding and awareness is governed by that.

    I mean, this is her after her father sends Beric rather than Loras after Gregor Clegane:

    A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

    Her father's decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she'd been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan's stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell. She had said as much to Septa Mordane as they descended the stairs from the gallery, but the septa had only told her it was not her place to question her lord father's decisions.
    That was when Lord Baelish had said, "Oh, I don't know, Septa. Some of her lord father's decisions could do with a bit of questioning. The young lady is as wise as she is lovely." He made a sweeping bow to Sansa, so deep she was not quite sure if she was being complimented or mocked.
    Septa Mordane had been very upset to realize that Lord Baelish had overheard them. "The girl was just talking, my lord," she'd said. "Foolish chatter. She meant nothing by the comment."
    Lord Baelish stroked his little pointed beard and said, "Nothing? Tell me, child, why would you have sent Ser Loras?"
    Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king's councillor smiled. "Well, those are not the reasons I'd have given, but …" He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of a cheekbone. "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow."
    This is eleven year-old Sansa.  It's how she sees the world and how she thinks about it.  She doesn't just idly think this stuff to herself, she says it out loud to privy councillors.  Roll your eyes or whatever you want but whether you think she should know better or not she doesn't.  Not yet.....
  18. 4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

    If Sansa didn't exist the world would be less bloody 

    Sure. She's not intentionally culpable for the misery of Westeros 

    You're a strange one.  She isn't culpable for the misery in Westeros because she didn't cause any of it.  If she didn't exist the Houses would be using other pawns or hostages in their contests and the world would be just as bloody.

    She was born so she's culpable for people trying to take advantage of her as a hostage?  Her brothers were murdered so she's culpable for people trying to use her for her claim?  That's some horrible logic and misdirected blame there.

    4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

    Shes an absurd character. 

    In what way?  She's an 11/12 year old with a crush on a handsome but unpleasant boy several years older than her and she overlooks his flaws due to inexperience, naivety and of how much she is enchanted by the prospect of her dreams and romantic songs becoming real.

    Seems pretty realistic to me.

  19. 4 minutes ago, GMantis said:

    It's entirely fitting in Cersei's character. She's extremely vindictive, to the extend of killing a baby because she was Robert's bastard. I don't see why she would be any more merciful towards to a boy who dared to hurt her precious Joffrey.

    I'm not sure she even needed to give the order.  Joffrey has accused Mycah and Arya of conspiring to attack him.  No one wants to hear Mycah's version of events because they're high nobility / royalty and he's a commoner.  Joffrey's arm was quite badly injured so any of the Lannister guards might have felt justified in taking retribution.  I'm sure they would have been rewarded.

    The bigger question is what would have happened to Arya.  Given she's The Hand's daughter the guardsmen and even The Hound would be unlikely to go so far.  But given Cersei specifically argued with Robert to cut off Arya's hand it seems likely she took his refusal badly and persuaded Jaime to kill her instead.

    A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

    "Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."
  20. Remember she does try and get him to put the sword away but he ignores her and then directly threatens her child. 

    Viserys didn't just break a sacred Dothraki taboo, he pointed a sword at her stomach and threatened to cut Drogo's child out of her womb.  There is no way back from this and no real reason Dany should try to intervene further.  Once Drogo knows what Viserys has said - and his actions are easy enough to interpret - he's toast.  So even if she lied about what Viserys said he's going to die right there.  I just don't have any sympathy for him at this point or believe that Dany has any further obligation to try and save him.

    A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

    "The blade … you must not," she begged him. "Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There's drink, food … is it the dragon's eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword."
    "Do as she tells you, fool," Ser Jorah shouted, "before you get us all killed."
    Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.
  21. Weird thread with some weird arguments from some certain folks.

    Quick recap:  Joffrey was tipsy from the wine and trying to show off to Sansa.  As he's a cruel little shit he showed his real self by bullying Mycah quite viciously.  Mycah simply ran off the first chance he got.

    Sansa told her father what really happened and Joffrey lied through his teeth to his parents.  This is all before Arya is found and brought before Robert on Cersei's orders.  She tells the truth but as it's her word against Joffrey's, Ned brings out Sansa to confirm what happens.  She panics and says she doesn't remember.  She doesn't "take sides", she doesn't "cover for Joffrey", she just doesn't say anything.

    In the meantime Jaime, The Hound, Lannister and Stark soldiers have all been out looking for Arya and the former for Mycah too.  Whether The Hound was ordered to kill him* or simply interpreted that as his duty as Joffrey's protector (having heard "from the royal lips" that Mycah had attacked him) he killed him rather than bringing him back for punishment.

    The only people who bear any responsibility are The Hound, Cersei and Joffrey.

    *Jaime makes it clear later on that Cersei wanted Arya punished and that if he had found her rather than Jory it's quite possible that he would have killed her and hidden the body.  I think Cersei would likely use Jaime if she wanted someone dead and that The Hound took the initiative in thinking, correctly, that both Joffrey and Cersei wanted Mycah killed rather than returned for punishment.  As it's his job to protect Joffrey and Joffrey accused Mycah of attacking him I think this was pretty straightforward for him.

  22. 19 hours ago, DMC said:

    It's still an absurd comparison.

    Beyond absurd.

    19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

    Its not Sansas fault that shes culpable for wanton destruction, its just who she is

    You know culpable means being at fault, right? It's literally what it means.

    If people fight over using her for her claim they are culpable for what ensues not her.  She's a pawn, most of the time unwitting, all of the time a powerless captive looking for a way out.

  23. 14 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

    Sansa was old enough to know better but too in love with Prince Joffrey to care.  There is some culpability.  Though it is the parents and the older brothers who are more culpable. 

    Old enough to know better about what?

    She has no idea about the paternity of Cersei's children or that her father has revealed to Cersei that he knows, making the whole situation incredibly dangerous.

    We have her pov where her thoughts reveal that she had no clue what was going on until Jeyne Poole is shoved into her room screaming "they're killing everyone".  Her thoughts also reveal what she intends when she approaches Cersei, namely to be allowed to marry Joffrey, and that she feels guilty about disobeying her father (for once) but that's it: her father and the King are best buddies, not mortal enemies, so what possible consequences could she foresee?

    She's a naïve, sheltered 12 year-old who thinks she's living in one of the romantic songs she likes so much.  She does not know better but learns the hard way in brutal fashion.

  24. 21 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

    Accounts, not people


    I'll be charitable and say it's a meme at this point so a few people parrot the same in-joke.  A meme isn't meant to be debated, just repeated for amusement, so whatever other people post to refute it is irrelevant and a little later the meme gets repeated.  Trying to rationally and patiently deconstruct the meme just keeps the cycle going.

    "For the Watch" is the new "For Stannis the Mannis!".  I never got that either but some people really adopted it big time.

    57 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

    Jon didn't just make mistakes.  He created a big problem.  He directly caused a fight between the Nights Watch, which should remain neutral, and the Boltons.  It was not Jon's business what happens to Arya after he took the Black.  Arya is a piece of the past which should have been forgotten.  That was the cause of all the bad things Jon did at the wall.  Arya and the Starks were on his thoughts.  He killed Slynt to satisfy revenge.  He attacked the Boltons when he sent Mance for Arya.  Bowen bashing is unjustified.  Bowen had to stop Jon and killing him was the only thing he could do. 

    Rather like this.  It's the exact same argument, really the same sound bite.  It will fade eventually like "For Stannis!".

  25. 30 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

    I am more angry for the death of the butcher's son.  I blame Sansa for that. 

    Not Joffrey for lying about being attacked?  Or Cersei for wanting Mycah killed for "his part" in injuring Joffrey?  Or The Hound for actually butchering him while he was running away?

    But Sansa for saying "I don't remember"?

    If she tells the truth she completes Joffrey's humiliation, if she lies she condemns Mycah: so she does neither.

    As with the premise of this thread it's true Sansa is involved in a minor way but the real blame obviously lies with others.


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