Lady Fevre Dream

They should be forced to watch some of the worst episodes of their own show on a endless loop. Yeah, I know, cruel and unusual punishment, but a just one.

I LOVE IT!! You've found the perfect solution. :lmao:

People, I know I am derailing this thread, but I have just seen Rattleshirt on the list of characters in episode no. 10.

That doesn't surprise me, we know he returns for the Hardhome battle/story line beyond the Wall. I'm not certain of all the episodic breakdown and placement, but that one's been known for awhile.

Right, I think articles like that are born of the misunderstanding that we're upset that there was a depiction of rape at all. And like so many people still think that's what this is about. And it's not like we're sitting here thinking "god, we just would rather Jeyne was raped" as if these are two real girls and we care about one but not the other.

The issue with this was that it was a rape without any sense: plot-wise, character-wise. Like...we know that it was all for shock-value because it's exactly what Cogman's quote about it said: "you go with the girl the audience knows." Because that would horrify us.

And that's exactly what the rape-victim's piece is getting at too. Jeyne's rape is handled with sensitivity, not because the depiction of the scene is better for the feint of heart (far, far from it), but because Martin dealt with it intimately. He didn't toss it in so Jeyne could "rise from the ashes" or any hackneyed trope. He dealt with her brutalization with respect to her character and never, ever let us forget the damning consequences.

But again, Sansa isn't Jeyne. You can't blithely swap Girl A for Girl B and act as if it's going to have the same point or result. It utterly, utterly destroys the narrative. And frankly the fact that the writers thought these two women would be interchangeable and "service the plot" in the same way? That's outright offensive.

Then there's the major, major issues about the lack of sense this entire set-up had. No one has yet to explain how Sansa marrying Ramsay is a good idea. Because it isn't. Because when you're the "last remaining Stark" whose "maidenhood" is of value, marrying the family that slaughtered yours and "giving up" your "virginity"...which does inherently come with the expectation of children...that does absolutely nothing to strengthen your position.

"Make him yours." Why? So she can rule Winterfell in the name of the Boltons? Fuck, she wasn't even marrying Roose to gain a position of power.

And the fact is, the writers sat down and thought to themselves "we think it will be better [for Ramsay, for Theon] to have Sansa be the girl getting raped" without bothering to even think of a logical reason why this would come to pass.

This idiotic idea that we should "wait and see" where it goes...what, because they've been so fucking respectful to Sansa's character? When we know the entire set-up was for truly gratuitous (aka uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted) reasons, then the aftermath is irredeemable.

Also, what are our best case scenarios here? Sansa will rise harder and stronger from this? Because her abuse in King's Landing wasn't for that exact purpose, and there's no quote about her skin hardening or anything as she's reflecting on her time there. And the suggestion that she needs a raping to become tougher or to want revenge against the Boltons is just outright sexist.

I think the funniest part (if there's any humor to be drawn from this at all) to me is that they think they're doing Theon's storyline a service here by giving us "buy-in" with someone we care about, when this undercuts his character too. Of course he'd want to save Sansa, the girl he had a crush on growing up. And of course there's other people around who would want to help Sansa. She's "worth" saving because she's a Stark. Jeyne wasn't, which was the whole point. And a point that D&D apparently agreed with too.

Assholes.

Terrific post!! I think you put into words what many of us think and feel......not just about that scene, but about what the making of that scene says about the show and the show runners. I wanted to thank you for that. :thumbsup:

this is actually perfect for...every plot this year.

I'm all for going green, but it's not really conducive to good story.

http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/3408158_f520.jpg

That gumby tweet does sum up most of my issues with current television and how it goes wrong.

I'm just going to quote Julia Martell's wonderful response to that raw article from here:

This post reminds me of tweet I saw yesterday............in relation to other story telling matter, I believe. But, it's appropriate for the manner in which D&D have put Sansa in Jeyne's place in service to Theon and even Ramsey's story. Every once in awhile, one can find a gem on twitter.

Once again, the plot should fit the character, the character shouldn't have to bend like Gumby to fit the plot. #Writing101

OldGimletEye, on 22 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yep, me too. Pure bliss to my eyes

Yup, once I realized it was safe to look past the term 'crybabies' thanks to the posters name and avitar, I was LMAO at all the Sansa Marriage Options through political history. I can fully understand some having trouble, though, as it's been really weird around here lately.

Whelp I am so sorry. I completely misread your post.

English and I are not getting along today. :blush:

ETA really rereading your comment I am horrified at how badly I misread it. :dunce: :leaving:

English is my first language, and it took me awhile to give the post a chance. Don't feel bad, I'm always impressed with the multilingual posters around here. Let me correct that.......English is my ONLY language, and it took me a minute or two. :cheers:

I feel compelled to address an argument that I have read on this and other show related threads often. The same argument has been used by formidable D&D duo on talk shows and in interviews. There it goes: "It doesn't matter how the plots develop. What matters is that they reach the same conclusion as in the books".

So, following that logic, let's examine a story well known to us all - Cinderella. There is Cinderella, her nasty stepmother and her two daughters. Oh yes, and a fairy godmother. There is a prince. In some versions optionally we can also find Cinderella's father and a king. In some versions, mice talks and so do horses and dogs. In some they don't. But, in all versions, stepmother (side character) mistreats Cinderella (main character), favours her own daughters (sidekicks) and tries to prevent Cinderella from going to the ball. In all versions Cinderella is kind and gets magical help (plot catalyser) to appear at the ball. In all versions, the prince (main male character) falls in love with her. In all versions Cinderella loses her shoe fleeing (Chekov's gun) and the shoe is the means for the prince to find her. And they live happily ever after.

Now, imagine Cinderella according to D&D and his followers. Stepmother is not always nasty to Cinderella. It varies from scene to scene. She allows Cinderella to go to the ball. But, one of her daughters is more beautiful then Cinderella and she outshines the main protagonist. So, the prince falls in love with her and compliments her on her flowery shoes. The second daughter is omitted for the budget reasons. The fairy godmother seeks revenge on the stepmother for no one can outshine her goddaughter. And she turns the stepmother into a rose, beautiful, but prickly. Soon, Cinderella's stepsister, pregnant at the time, dies after a horrible fall while hunting with her beloved prince. Cinderella happens to be close by picking mushrooms, sees the incident and calls for help. She tries to give her sister a CPR (although it has not been invented yet), but fails. The prince sees her compassion and after a period of mourning and courtship marries Cinderella who reminds him of his first wife. While walking down the aisle, Cinderella loses her shoe, but a nice courtier picks it up and places it on her foot. The wedding continues. And they live happily ever after.

So, we got there in the end, didn't we? Same story? No. The story is in the telling.

This is an illustration of why I basically say...........maybe the closing epilogues will match, book and show, but it doesn't mean it will be a similar story.

I don't think it's fair to say your opinion doesn't matter anymore just because you haven't had the same terrible experience. I think we all have the right to speak our opinions.

Speaking of which, this is... lol and accurate:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/whitleypedia/aunbowed-unbent-unbrokena-a-what-aadult-h8au#.evBm4PE92

ETA: I laughed at the part when they say that GoT has managed to offend both gay people and religious people at the same time :lol:

Thanks for the link, I'm off to read it now and hoping I can manage a good laugh or two out of it.

I found this sub titling of the post very interesting and right on target.

Game of Thrones has sacrificed adult storytelling for adult content

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

How about this one?

I found that last night on Twitter as I was signing off, and just WOW......powerful stuff, and my heart goes out to her. I hope one day she finds some peace and happiness and can have more than an internet hug in her life. Until then, she gets one from me. I admire also, in spite of all the personal issues, that she can see the difference in handling of the subject matter between the books and the show.

One thing I found interesting in that post was this: She mentions not only the crack made to Sophie about getting a love interest, she also mentions that someone on set gave Sophie, by not Iwan who plays Ramsey, a fake wedding card? I haven't kept up with all the behind scenes things lately, as D&D make me sicker and sicker, but I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this? Was Sophie given a fake wedding card? And, by whom?

Interesting read but, wow, I could not disagree with Amanda Marcott any more on that piece. I don't have any of the problems with the Sansa scene that she purports to be "debunking" except one: they did make it about Theon. That is, they took a major character who had her own story and made her take the place of a minor character who's story arc serves another major character's (Theon's) arc. The other elephant in the room that this "debunking" never brings up is simply that, even within the show, Littlefinger taking Sansa to Winterfell and marrying her to the Boltons makes absolutely no sense (my main problem with the whole thing). Those are the problems I have with the Sansa scene (along with the simple fact that it was all done for shock value). So, no, it doesn't "debunk" anything for me. Ultimately, she has her opinion and I have mine and I would simply point out that disagreeing with something is not necessarily "debunking" it. ;)

:agree:

Yup.

That article doesn't really address (much less 'debunk') my issues. My opinion is that the author is missing the point rather broadly.

Yup, yup, and yup.

Some things in there are somewhat confusing, like this gem:

Executive Producer Frank Doelger: “Sansa is no longer going to be a victim. She has become a Stark in her own right.”

Except she became a Bolton by all rights, so wtf are these guys smokin?

It is a little weird, some of the quotes and some of the timing. It makes one want to ask........WHEN did you say this, what was going on, did you personally have a clue......what happened at which point....and what will happen eventually? It's like half of the comments include all the pre rape spin of.........empowerment, or whatever?

Just wondering if everyone saw this from WotW, an article including Anatomy of a Scene about Sansa's return to WF. Even just skimming the article makes me sick, quite frankly, not to mention a bit angry. I can't say as I'm dying to watch the accompanying bs spinning by the show, either.

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-anatomy-of-a-scene-features-sansas-return-to-winterfell/#more-32731

From the article:

"HBO has decided to write women in the show and place them under two categories: weak and strong.

If a woman has no visible ways to prove she has power, then she’s weak. Doesn’t matter how smart she can be, she is going to be a victim of rape...."

"...But, if a women is strong, then she needs to prove her strength by not only carrying around a weapon or wearing sexy costume. She needs to be an emotionless badass who has little sympathy or compassion for other people and does nothing but throwing around badass oneliners to prove how much she means what she says. For some reason, that’s meant to be a “strong female character”..."

How does Tallisa (Maegyr) Stark fit this theory? She was a memorable, strong female character (& a pretty substantial one at that) who appeared two seasons. How does Catlyn Stark fit in this analysis for that matter?

Regarding the wedding to Tyrion

"Sansa from the show took the announcement of her wedding like she should be glad she was marrying Tyrion because he’s such a nice fellow. And she knelt to him because she’s so so kind towards his feelings."

Um, bullshit. Is this article supposed to be a joke?

Ummmmmmmm, what IS bullshit is thinking I should waste my time explaining what it is and isn't when the website does that at the top of said page. Hell......the TITLE explains what it is SUPPOSED to be.

This is where it gets weird, because 1) I'm spanish and 2) I've actually been told I do by a female GoT fan.

Not that I expect you to believe that, of course. But it's true and under the circumstances I can't not say it.

ETA: what the hell is going on in this thread lol

Obviously, some momentary fun is going on with the thread, Seven Save Me, I wish the show still gave me that at times. :devil:

Aw come on, it was a facetious quip while I positively compared his work to Dweeb and Dumbass'.

Also the internet is such that you never really know if a photo is actually perwonal, so...

Tis true, I see you were kidding around.

You could have made my day and told me........you look like Pedro Pascal and can even do his fake accents, LOL

Hello. Where can one read your article? I cannot go through the part of this thread I haven't read already. Pls?!

Here ya go, in case paging back is difficult. :cheers:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lilicap/an-open-letter-to-game-of-thrones-critics-17qd7

Good point about the SS not even trying to harm Myrcella when that was their stated goal. That's another thing that should have gone differently if the show were internally consistent at all.

Your second point is what I am getting at with having the SS conceal their intent a bit and just walk into the water gardens. That way some guards could have been shown and that would have been at least a bit more logical. However, then we couldn't have Jaime and Bronn just easily walk into the place unchallenged so... :dunno:

Also, that scene really, really should have taken place in the evening. I mean, it's simply logical that one would make the attempt, whether it's to kill Myrcella or "rescue" her, in the evening because the coming darkness would make getting away much easier.

hahahaha, finally........He Who Is Of The Night........is looking competent. :lmao:

Your second point is a bit iffy given the differences between the contemporary show written by dashing young men's treatment of the theme vs. the original, fat dirty old dork's work - even in my non-SJW interpretation of it :D

but yeah, enough of this

Statements that are this condemning of someone else's appearance......SHOULD come with a personal photo, know what I'm saying? Such is the internet, huh?

I'd say the greatness of the books comapred to the recent mediocrity of the show is why it's on my mind

I agree, the fact that the show comes from books that have brought most of us to this site to begin with is what keeps the subject going. If this was just a show on it's own.........I don't think I'd bother thinking, or posting, about it much at this point. It's quite frankly turned into a big bore that is only broken up by a bit of anger at times. I do find that sad, as I can see so much of the potential for actors bringing great story to my screen (I say story and not scenes because, IMO, that's one area that the show is confusing......scenes do not necessarily add up to equal a story, they just do little vignettes and sketches and scenes, not tell compellingly deep story anymore). Without the books to think about, without wondering on better ways that the story could have been adapted with changes as well.......I doubt the show at this point could inspire me to even bother reading much about it, much less talking about it as well. As a stand alone product, it can't even much inspire me to sit through an entire episode any more, I actually have to make myself finish watching lately.

yes, I wrote it. And thanks. I'll return more often once I finish some personal issues at home and work.

The more I read, the more certain I was that it was you. :thumbsup:

Good luck with all your personal issues, you can count on me to hope for the best for one of the most enjoyable, and intelligent, posters around here. I have a few personal things going on as well, which is why my time here is sporadic. Here's hoping we get back to ASOIAF being a fun diversion from all the RL stuff, the show certainly isn't. Take care and thanks for sharing the buzzfeed post. :grouphug:

Thank you :)

Did you write it? I'm not clear on that, or on Buzzfeed to be honest, LOL I'm off reading it now.

Great to see you, and by the way.......love your above post explaining some of the Dany and Drogo relationship, spot on.

Fancy wardrobe? Dorne guards (Bronn and Jaime included) were wrapped in someone's great grandmother's curtains.

LOL I couldn't agree more. All those 'Dornish Curtains' lacked were the rod running through them, a la Carol Burnett as Scarlett O'Hara

http://41.media.tumblr.com/f5dfa354d46fd712b412196f82697de7/tumblr_mq5avoSUOv1qar83lo6_500.png

Oh well, it's only fitting considering the entire Water Gardens scenes came off as a comedy sketch anyway.

LOL. I think she's trying to get some cheap publicity, but, clearly a lot of people are angry at the show. I had to stop rating this season because I started my bad rating too high at a 6, and that would mean better episodes would end up a 7 or an 8, and nothing really deserves an 8, so no more voting I only comment.

Oh, I agree, it's an easy political point. But, also.......I can't blame her for being fed up with it and not finding it worth her time and aggravation any more.

I can't even rate this episode (I've never been into rating them anyway, I'm not sure I get the point of it sometimes), but it's hard to come up with a rating for something that bores one to death and yet still manages to anger one at the same time. But, I'm guessing a certain senator wouldn't give it high points, as this tweet suggests. It also suggests that the show in general lately was lagging for her, rating wise. It seems a rocky ride for her that she is no longer interested in riding. Can't say as I blame her.

Claire McCaskill @clairecmc · 7h7 hours ago

I fear you are right, but I do believe that viewers and critics can influence the show. Not this season obviously, but some good old mud slinging and rotten tomatoes throwing may force HBO CEOs if not the Mad King/Euron Greyjoy duo, to rethink their strategy for the next season - like hiring real writers for a change. I do pity the actors. They are excellent. They are trying hard (most of them anyway), but it is obvious that they gave up on script as well. Iain Glenn was the best in this episode when he had zero words to say. That speaks volumes. Also, actors are more and more engaged on other projects. The whole thing is slowly falling apart. Just compare Tywin skinning a deer in season 1 with "can you find fat Valda's fanny" dialogue this season. Pathetic.

It's amazing, and not a coincidence, that my three favorite scenes so far this season were silent. Arya........silently and touchingly holding Needle (without conveying any of D&D's stupid REVENGEisms from the adjoining Inside the Episode segment), Jaime with the quiet Tarth Gaze, especially at the mention of The Sapphire Isle, and this episode with Jorah quietly contemplating his father and learning of his death. It says a lot about how great the actors really can be and how far the quality of writing has fallen that silent scenes, three of them now, tend to be the most powerful. Love your comparative dialogue at the end there.