bardgal

Gods, I hope Jamie doesn't die. He pretty much saved the world by killing Mad King Aerys and having everyone hate on him for doing so. Yes it's sad he fell in love with his Cersei, but you love who you love, as tragic as that might be. Even more reason for his character to catch a break.

I'm hoping for something amazing for Jamie down the road....

Some insight on how this episode was shot:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/27/game-of-thrones-blackwater-2/

In one vast swoop of Sandors sword, that episode made me forget every complaint ive had with this series, sure it wasnt *quite* like the book, but as far as bringing the best of Blackwater to the TV screens, the did it with stunning results.

It was directed well, produced brilliantly and very well written.

I have no real complaints to add, except for the need for ad breaks!!

Ad breaks? You need ad breaks? Or where you are has ad breaks? If it's the latter I'm wondering where is that, that shows GoT WITH ad breaks? :shocked:

I remember the story from the book, but no I don't recall this in the tourney scene last season Just Littlefinger making some witicisms about Renly and Loras (and showing some creepy interest in Sansa), Gregor cutting his horse's head off, and Robert being drunk. Apparently it was one of those quickie things that if you blinked you missed it.

Go here, and skip to 1:22. You'd have to blink for over a minute to miss it.

Definitely enjoyed the episode and on the whole I like the choices that were made regarding deviations from the books.

However I do believe that Tyrion's chain could and should have been included. A set up in an earlier episode - Tyrion telling all the smith's in King's landing to begin constructing large links and assembling them would be enough to plant the concept in the viewers' minds and then the pay off would be manifested by simply showing men on either side of the Blackwater towing it out of the water at the signal. Men on the ships would only then have to report that an enormous chain was preventing escape. Not perfect, but it certainly could be done without an enormous increase in budget IMO. I could be wrong...

But this is a critical story/character point. It makes Tyrion look like a masterful tactician and prevents Davos from looking somewhat foolish. An empty ship approaching an armada has got to raise suspicions in any competent commander particularly one who has survived using his wits to avoid being trapped or bought by surprise.

Deal breaker? Nah. Still a great episode.

1. The show is quoted (even in the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" of this episode) that wildefire "burns so hot, it melts wood, stone, even steel." So why would it not destroy the chain - oh yeah, if we leave it underwater - but then it's a night scene, so how do they film that?

2. Why would Tyrion waste two ships and the men on them to wildfire just to pull a chain (since there is no Star Trek transporter in Westeros to magically get them out of the massive river full of wildfire that doesn't magically not go past the chain) and have those ships not able to hold the chain in place because they're also destroyed by wildfire, when the massive wildfire bomb that happened in this episode makes Tyrion look even smarter than he did in the book?

3. It's at night. In the fog. They don't see it's only one ship until it's almost upon them, and then can't see that it's unmanned until they're right next to it. There are no motors, or oars on these ships. There is no forward, reverse, or neutral. There is no ship to ship satellite radio to tell the other ships anything. There's only sails and a tiller. And I'm not sure if you've ever sailed yourself, but once you get inertia on water in a ship/boat controlled only by wind power, there is no stopping, only steering, furling sail, coming about (which isn't fast in a ship that size), and rope on a cleat for a break - but you need a dock for that.

The scene as written in ASoS, is unfilmable. What they accomplished in this episode is stellar, and never before done for television. It's groundbreaking. I wish more people could understand that.

As has been said before, but bears infinitly repeating: We've been given a show that is by and large unproducable for the screen. Start there in your mind. We're so damn lucky to be getting as brilliant, and perfectly cast a show as this! I don't care who writes the episodes. I love every last one of them.

Only a 10 from me, guys - sorry ;) (But that's because Ran won't let us vote to 20!)

Nothing more to be said. Awesome, awesome episode. Even Shae could do no wrong for me tonight.

My only complaint has nothing to do with the show. Spare a thought for us here in the UK where the bloody stupid, bollocking, sodding, effin' cretinous commentators on Sky Atlantic talked all over the closing credits and The Rains of Castamere!! Bastards!

Phew - it's going to take some time to come down from this episode. I'd better go and plunge into a cold shower or something.

Couple of quick thoughts:

I don't think Lena Headey was nominated for an Emmy by HBO, and I know Blackwater was not submitted (I think, because either it wasn't completely done OR because they didn't want spoilers out there).

But both are a shame. I think Lena has outperformed everyone this year -- Dinklage, Dance, Maisie, even Alfie, who has been #2 -- as the script has given her more to do. I've never thought of her as a great (or poor) actress, but she's really been fantastic this year and I wonder if my prior impression was lack of great roles (I haven't seen her in a ton).

And while this episode wasn't perfect, or even my favorite of the series (Baelor, for me), it was done very well, and it was something never before done on tv.

But, please, stop complaining about scale. Complain about pace, characters, whatever. Not scale. Season one had a lot of scenes that lacked it; the tourney, the hunt, etc. Most of that was budget. When you look at this season, the melee, Stannis' fleet, Blackwater... understand that the scale you want and remember from the books may only be really possible with the type of money they aren't going to spend. Complaining does no good. 99% of networks and producers wouldn't have even ATTEMPTED to show the battle. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

This season's Emmy nomination process isn't over until May 31st, 2012. So every episode (including the last one - IF it's webcast - due to the Hanging Episode rule) will be eligible for nomination for the 64th Emmy Awards. So, let's hope more of the Television Academy members will have seen this season.

I agree with you x ∞³ about people complaining about scale.

Someone has to counter the "Awesome Awesome 10, 10 ,10 comments, with some reality.

The reality is, the Battle of the Blackwater, is UNFILMABLE as written. Period. Wildfire doesn't exist, and it's only an hour episode. Wildfire keeps burning - for days. The budget for The Hobbit wouldn't cover the amount of ships, sets along the river/in the river, trained extras, stunt actors/coordinators, CGI, and TIME needed to film it AS WRITTEN. You cannot do everything CGI. You have to have a foundation to base it on, otherwise it looks terribad.

Overall an excellent episode, and I gave it a 10. Some minor quibbles: - The Tyrion-leading-the-charge scene did feel rushed as others noticed.

I don't get this. How much longer should it have been? Did you want horses? To see them mount up? That would take longer, getting them saddled and all, but they really were going around the corner and out the gate. Tywin riding in would have been diminished and confused if there were horses elsewhere. Besides, we only have 60min. I'd love someone explaining the "rushed" thing so I understand why you feel that way.

- The wildfire special effects were awesome, though as others noted the book left the impression the fire filled the entire river and was more critical to Stannis' defeat.

Please see my unfilmable explantion above. It is mentioned several times in the episode that the entire river is on fire.

- At some point the series should have established how Sandor came by his own burn scars; the scene where he turns tail would have been more comprehensible to those who haven't read the books.

Did you miss the Hand's Tounrey from season one, where Littlefinger explains it to Sansa?

- Yes, we have to have a naked whore. Good grief, will the gratuitous T&A never end?

Nope. It's HBO. My only quibble with last night's scene is where is the Brazillian Wax shop in Fleabottom? I mean, COME ON.

Some quibbles with other comments: - Yes, a single "ghost ship" coming out of the mist is suspicious-- but what are Davos et al supposed to do? Stannis' fleet does not consist of hydroplanes. There's no "Reverse engines!" possible. - Ancient and medieval leaders often did lead at the vanguard in the pre-firearms days. Armor and skill were to protect them. Yes, sometimes they came to grief but them were the breaks. Leading from the rear was very poorly thought of. But Stannis does need a helmet. Why not give him a very obvious one, something stag-like with some hint of the Lord of Light? - The Cersei scenes, IMO, were quite properly balanced with the battle scenes. It brought home the creeping fear women would endure shut up in a castle with no idea how things were going-- and knowing what their own fate would be if the city fell. - Yes, Cersei is mean to Sansa-- she genuinely does think the girl is stupid. But (IMO) she's not just being a sadist, unlike Joffrey. On some level she's also trying to toughen Sansa up, knowing all too well what the girl is heading for if she marries Joff. There's a touch-- just a touch-- of womanly comraderie in her bitchiness. A couple more comments: - Lena Headley deserves an Emmy for this season. She has created a believable human Cersei, with all her nastiness intact, yet a woman we can also understand, something Martin in the books has badly failed to do. Even knowing that she would not poison Tommen at the end, I believed she might do it. And note where she goes to die: to the Iron Throne she could not actually make her own. There's also a creepy note of unconscious prohecy in her drunken words and the parable she tells Tommen: has she in fact written Joffrey off bit can't admit it to herself? - I had a fleeting flash of sympathy for Joffrey during his indecision whether to obey his mother's summons or stay at the battle. it lasted about .8 seconds, but it was real while it was there. - Uh-oh. Cersei smells something fishy about Shae. - Good grief, even Lancel was good tonight instead of being a total simpering idiot! Yes, he ran back to Cersei after getting a flesh wound, but then stood up to her. - Go Podrick!

Mostly agree, and really great points!

I totally get why none of the leads have helmets - non-book readers would be lost, and it certainly didn't help the guy next to Stannis. As it is, my non-book friends are wondering who the hell tried to kill Tyrion - because he was wearing a helmet. Even The Hound didn't have his, and right now, his is the only recognizable one aside from Gendry's who never wore his.

I thought the Shea scene was awesome. Didn't see that coming, and added a LOT to already heightened tension.

Cersei getting a head start on getting her drink on will make more sense going forward for the TV series.

Brilliant episode. Brilliant series!

Ok, I have not seen it mentioned enough. Props to Jack Gleeson. The guy has done a hell of a job with Joffrey. He needs some sort of award.

doubtless the best episode of the season and one of the best episode of the series so far. That wildfire explosion surpassed my wildest expectations Awesome and terrifying. Actually I think it was better than it would have been with the chain, I don´t miss that at all. Loved the Rains of Castamere in the credits.

This is how you write an episode.

I have been saving the 10/10 rating all season for this episode, so here it is:

10/10

YES. I think it was actually MUCH BETTER without the chain.

Good episode, But, I just do not see how everyone is rating it so high. The battle of Blackwater wasn't anything like the book and was dumbed down and cheesy. I love the show, But the battle was terrible. With CGI nowadays, no excuse for not following the book more closely. I think it looked like a B movie battle actually. Dark and cheaply made. My opinion.

Really?

Ok. Please explain HOW the chain and all the wildfire burning all over the Blackwater Rush could actually BE FILMED for an hour episodic television show. No really. Go on. I want to you to explain all of it. The shots, the story boarding, the camera angles, the way THE CHAIN would be filmed underwater - and above with all the green flames on top, with bodies underneath, and oh - HOW MANY SHIPS burning and for what distance.

Then you need to tell me WHERE that would be filmed, and HOW MANY DAYS you'd schedule to do that. Oh, and how much you think all of that, WITH POST, would cost.

What they did was brilliant x ∞ for a visual medium to tell basically the same tale.

Ten out of ten for me.

Great acting by all, but Rory McCann in particular was absolutely spot on. The Hound went from an absolute terror (I counted two men cleaved in half) to absolutely terrified in a way that was very believable. I like the palpable tension between him and Bronn before the battle.

I've seen plenty of epic battle scenes in plenty of films by now. What separates the great ones (Braveheart, LOTR, Saving Private Ryan) from the mediocre ones (Kingdom of Heaven, Troy) are the ramifications, the emotional investment that the viewer has in the outcome. The scenes involving soldiers from both sides leading up to the battle, the dialogue on the battlements between Joffrey, Tyrion, Lancel, and the Hound, the silent fear of the women and children confined below, away from the fighting, Cersei's description of the inevitable rape/murder that the women would face if Stannis were to breach the gates, all of this made me care about The Battle of the Blackwater.

A tip of the hat to everybody involved in this episode. Fantastic hour of television.

Agree completely. Except Kingdom of Heaven. See the Director's Cut. There's another 45min that was missing from the theatrical release, and it's an entirely different AWESOME film. The theatrical release is crap.

The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all.

uhmm.....

I'd call the RW a pretty big "consequence."

I thought this was the most balanced and complete episode of the season. Here is what I liked: The Time Taken and the Time Spent: The best part of this episode was that it felt like every individual story-line was given the time and the space to grow and it did not feel like I was watching a “Meanwhile-at-the-Legion-of-Doom” highlights. The episode gave each part of the show the time it needed to feel real and fully formed. This was maybe the only episode all season that did not feel fragmented and disjointed. Heck, I even liked the Jon Snow parts. The King in the North (-West): Look, for reasons not entirely clear to me, some viewers do not like Robb’s relationship with the Volantian woman. But watching Robb comfortably talk to another woman (unlike Jon who with Ygritte has all the comfort of being naked on a nail-bed) is refreshing. He seems to care about her and she seems to have a genuine affection for him (or is a double-agent). When Robb said he did not want to marry the Frey girl, not only do I believe him but I kind of (sort of) understand him. Tylesa is a complete person filled with empathy, kindness, bravery, intelligence and decency. And Robb is all those things as well. And if she turns out to be a double-agent FUCK that's hot... wait, what? And before I forget- I liked that when they were having sex they both laughed. FOR ONCE on this show sex is seen as a positive and fun event. I mean, its going to kill Robb, but hey, still fun. And when he unloaded on Cat I was right there with him. She fucked it up. And she had to be told. Robb told her. And fuck her; freeing the KS was weak. The Siege of Storm’s End and Robert and Renly’s Brother: Stannis is, possibly, my second or third favorite character in the books (Handless and Noseless take 1 and 2 (usually)). And on the show he has stepped up, gotten laid, and nailed this part. Whenever he speaks you get this sense of not only his determination and raw (almost pathological) force of will, but you can sense his emotional void; how when he held Robert’s center he deserved not only praise but gratitude. Instead, he got sent to Dragonstone. And all the while he talked about the horses and cats and dogs and the hate the hate the hate. And also the unfairness. One of the reasons I like Stannis (and one of the reasons I think the actor is hitting Stannis so well) is because I think we have all- at one time or another- known what its like to be truly treated unfairly. Stannis IS the rightful King and his realm is the Seven Kingdoms. Period. Whatever Robb or dead Renly or Tywin think matters not at all. Robert was King died without legal issue. Case closed. And yet he ain't the King. And so that same sense of fairness that drives Stannis also serves him to treat Davos well; it causes him to listen to wise counsel and it makes him toss aside those who are arrogant, proud and wrong. To me that’s why Stannis works. So, ... so the fury comes out... woe be onto they who gets in that way- Mace Tyrell, Renly, the castellan of Storm's End, Gold cloaks, Mance Ryder or some Karstarks. You've. Been. Warned. Fuck... if I was Mace Tyrell I'd want ANYONE King other than Stannis. Stannis has to be the only guy in the 7 Kingdoms who kicks the shit out of you and then says "Want a rematch?" And he never blinks. The actor who plays him I think has blinked like 8 times this season. The Jaime and Brienne Show: Now that Tywin and Arya has been cancelled, I hope the Jaime and Brienne show is able to hold that time spot. So far so good; Jaime is arrogant and infuriating; Brienne proud and unbending. They make an amazing duo. The Salvation of Jon Snow: Okay so it only took them three episodes but I think the show has been able to cobble together the important bits and save Jon Snow’s story-line. They are going to do the Halfhand fight etc. And it may, potentially, save time in the long run. If that’s the case than this worked out. IF not, well…. “You know nothing, Jon Snow” is going to be the worst drinking game ever. The Spider and the Imp: I got nothing ‘cept that. Don’t need to say anything else. Bran: A boy knows… What I am on the Fence about: The Least Shocking Reveal Ever: Who didn’t think it was going to be Roz? Okay, I know- we read it in the books and all but … if you made 50 people watch this show Episode 1 to Episode 18 and then RIGHT BEFORE she walks out ask them “Who is going to walk out in that room?” How many of the 50 say “Roz?” And how many of them roll their eyes when they say it? I’m going to say 32 say “Roz” 20 of them roll their eyes and two guys add the word “fucking’ to her name. Now for me, I was fine with it, it just felt utterly unnatural the whole time. And when Roz walked out all I could think of was “Thank Christ I don’t have to listen to Shae! And then the next scene had Shae in it so I ran cold water in my bath tub in preparation of opening a vein, but, hey- she was fine. Dany: It was a pointless scene. We could have had no Dany this week and tacked on that scene to the week when she burns down the House of the Undying and it would have been fine. But what was there was fine. We Get It He’s A Moron: Whenever Theon talks to … anyone… I just want him to stop. And its not because he’s poorly written or poorly acted, but because Theon Greyjoy is a car wreck. And with that said, its pretty much IDENTICAL to him in the books so not complaining about that just … why does Theon have to be so … human? What I did Not Like: Fuck it! Was a great episode. No bad things to say really. Just next week… I put odds of Stannis dying at 25% and climbing. Fuck… just like Book 5… Stannis. Is. Coming.

❤❤❤❤❤³

Why is no one talking about how great a job Tom Wlaschiha is doing as Jaqen H'ghar? The scene when Arya says his name and they have that whole conversation is just brilliantly acted on both parts. They really seem to have chemistry, maybe it's just Maisie Williams because she was fantastic with Tywin too but I think the Jaqen portrayal is amazing. He has a touch of humor and seriousness much like the books. Also, Oona Chaplin is totally worth the kingdom. One more thing. I don't think Jaime thinks of the Cleganes with such respect. Yes, they're both gifted, brutal killers and fighters but I think Jaime would think himself much better than those two. I would think Jaime Lannister would know many other knights more skilled and famous than The Hound and The Mountain. Selmy possibly even though he is old and Jaime is cocky as hell. Oberyn Martell? He proved himself to be pretty good, beating the Mountain later in the books. There must be better knights than the dogs.

I think Maisie could probably have chemistry with a chair. She's so brilliant!!

Not a mistake at all, as I see it. He's saying he'd worship even some foreign phony god if only that'd get his sons back.

That's is exactly how I took it as well.

Do you see what's wrong with this quote? And yeah, they are, I laughed my ass off at the episode 3 commentary I think it was. Where the kids are singing the intro to the show along especially.

Yeah, you're right. My bad. Let me rephrase: Calling a perfect stranger "pooh bear" is condescending, sexist, and offensive.

The kids singing the intro was one of the best moments ever. Almost as awesome as Nikolaj mentioning the "10 minutes of Slapping Joffrey" video.

Exactly. I often feel their respect for one another grew from there with the 'respect for each other as warriors' as a core basis which they established during that fight. It all boils down to 1. People coming to the internet and expecting a good time, then being unable to relieve the tension they wanted to relieve because everything is not completely as they want it to be 2. People taking themselves too seriously 3. People everywhere being too touchy in general. 4. It being more difficult to carry over intonation and irony over the internet. EvaMitchelle got more offended by me than she was supposed to be too most likely because of point 4. 5. No one being as awesomely cool-headed as I am (see what I did there? ^^) Btw, I'm watching Season 1 with commentaries now, and hope they do a commentary on this episode as well, preferably a writer who explains why all the changes were necessary... You do make a lot more sense of it when a guy explains it like that, weird as that may sound.

The commentaries on the season 1 dvds are so fun!!!

All snarkiness aside, yes -- you were talking about what another poster said, but you responding directly to my post challenging whether or not it reached the severity of being qualified as "e-bullying" (a position others challenged as well). You even re-quoted my little joke about the PC Thought Police, so how you could be surprised by my responding as to the origin of the whole convoluted, ignorant discussion escapes me. I'm done now, both because it's off-topic and no longer amusing. None of us know each other. It's an internet board. Again, you're taking yourself far too seriously and degenerating into calling me vulgar names. Let's just let it die, shall we? Sheesh.

You made it about you. It wasn't. Other people agreed with me. We're even.

I used your tactic on you, and you have a problem? Sheesh. Who is taking things too seriously?

Don't ever call me pooh bear. It's offensive. It makes you a condescending ahole. Instead of never taking responsibility for something you actually did, you could man up and apologize.

Hoat or no Hoat, having Catelyn cut Jaime's hand off would be a disastrously bad change.

You’re making a really big mistake. You have to watch the show first or else you will be terrible, terrible disappointed no matter what happens. If you read the book, you will be angry at what was left out or changed in the show. If you watch the show first, you will be delighted with how much more there is. Why in the world do you want to be angry instead of delighted?

I am always amazed when people think other people will feel or think exactly like them. I mean, I get sharing your own personal experience, but then taking that a step farther in the expectation that others will have your same experience is kind of mindboggling.

I started reading the books after season 1 ended. (I'm a ridiculously slow reader because my life is pretty full..) As of the beginning of season 2, I had just about finished ASOS.

By your theory, since I read book 2 before watching season 2, I should be as "terribly, terribly disappointed", and "angry at what was left out or changed in the show."

Guess what? I'm NOT. I love BOTH. I am absolutely DELIGHTED with the show. In fact, I like much of the show BETTER. They both compliment each other, and for me, the books are the books, and the show is the show. I'm having fun experiencing BOTH. Right now I'm in the middle of book 4, and enjoying myself immensely.

Sigh. I'm not requiring anything, pooh bear. It was a suggestion made in an effort to increase someone else's enjoyment. I couldn't possibly care less what someone does or doesn't read. My entire position, all along, has been simply to say, "if you like one, you'll most likely also enjoy the other." Sheesh.

Not everything is about YOU.

You obviously mistook my original post on bullying for something YOU said. It wasn't. I quoted the original post, which wasn't YOURS. Please go back and see who it WAS directed to - it's easy to see, that's what the QUOTE button does.

My point has NEVER been about people suggesting the books. It's THE WAY a certain poster attacked another poster.

And don't call me "pooh bear." You don't know me, and it just makes you look like that douchebag from Legally Blonde.

Exactly. And don't forget that in AGOT, Arya even thinks her sister Sansa is pretty stupid with her stars-in-the-eyes attitude about court life and marrying a prince, so it's not being sexist at all. Even though the Arya/Tywin scenes are invented for the TV series, the Arya we see in them is exactly the sort of Arya that GRRM wrote. Yes. And I would strongly recommend that people go and read / watch that really excellent interview with GRRM, where he talks about the many problems of adapting books or even short stories for the screen, and relates his own experience doing this for just one short story. A sci fi story which he loved, and where he knew the author. It's NOT easy to adapt books for the screen, especially complex ones, and the way GRRM has written the ASOIAF books, where so much background and essential information is given through characters internal POVs, rather than action or dialogue, makes it even harder.

I saw that. It was great. I think it was part of the TIFF interview. Good stuff.

Don't worry. According to the summaries/teasers, this is still happening in episode 10. People are wigging for no reason, just because the show is taking a different route to get to the same destination, and because they're hyper-sensitive to any changes that are made. I wouldn't call it a requirement. This whole rigamaroll got started because homeslice said he/she didn't want to read the books and I told them they were doing themselves a disservice. I still stand behind that. If you enjoy the show, you will very likely enjoy the books as well, regardless of which you enjoy more. Why deny yourself that enjoyment, unless you just don't enjoy reading? (which I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!)

Requiring someone ELSE to read something they have no desire to then deriding them for not wanting to do what you say, I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness, like OCD or a compulsion to control others -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!

I would call it what it is: normal human discourse. If folks find what's been said here to be extreme, I can't imagine how they fare in the real world. I took bigger hits in Model U.N. debates than have been tossed-out here.

Normal human discourse allows for people to disagree. Bullying doesn't. Normal human discourse doesn't condone belittling others to make your point. Bullying does. I, for one, am sick to death of pretending something isn't bullying, when clearly it is, and the anonymity of the internet only exacerbates this behavior.

I guess you missed "I either literally can't fathom what your saying, [as if the person wasn't speaking English, when clearly they were], or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better. [implying that the person MUST agree with this opinion.]"

That is uncalled for, and it's simply not true. There are plenty of people here on this forum who LIKE BOTH, or like the changes made for the show MORE than the books. I'm one of them. The world isn't going to end because of it, and no one deserves to be treated badly for having a different opinion.

What's tragic is people not being able to see bullying when it happens, or pretending it's 'no big deal.'

Wow. You guys are awfully sensitive. Bullying? Really?

Yes. Really.

What would you call it?