Versiroth

I honestly give up on this conversation as I'm only arguing in circles anyway. I think Jaime's an ass. I feel zero sympathy for Cersei. I think Incest is bad. I hope neither survive to see the 7th book. There, I'm done. Have at it. :drunk:

Wow........

Regardess of what happened when they were children, the adults that chose to kill King Robert's true-born fetus and only give birth to Jaime's were adults and completely accountable for their actions. Actions that caused a horrible ripple effect that hurt all of the seven kingdoms. I'm just surprised that people actually try to justify their actions. The incest was completely wrong and absolutely no good came from it at all.

The incest was a choice. A choice that they continued into their adult lives. You're going to honestly tell me that something that happened due to pure happenstance is equal to two people making a conscience choice, knowing all the while it was wrong? Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be held accountable for their actions here? Because it seems like that's what you're trying to do. Blame anyone and everyone except for the two responsible.

If there was no incest, then Bran would have never been pushed out of a window. No cripple Bran, no captured Tyrion, No reason for the Lannisters to go to war. Also, if there wouldn't have been any incest, then Cersei would have give birth a a true-born son for Robert. A son that Ned, Stannis and Renly would have protected. So, they would not have gone to war either. Littlefinger would have been a gun with no bullets without the incest.

No, it was the fact that Robert had no true born sons that causes the war. Which again points to the incest. Ned would have protected Roberts kids unto his death if they would have been his true children.

I don't dislike Jaime because I believe that he's pure evil. I dislike him because of even when he's trying to do something good he comes off as an asshole. He can't get out of his own way long enough to become a truly good character person.

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

Cersei admitted to once conceiving a baby with Robert and that Jaime took care of it before it could be born. Also, Joffrey was always messed up. Don't you remember the story in Feast about him doing something to a cat that made Robert beat him bloody?

LOL, wut? It's blind hate to blame twin's incestual relationship for the horrors that occur in this series when EVERYTHING can be pointed to said incest? It's more like blind love on your part for Jaime it would seem. heck, you love for that character has you DEFENDING incest for the seven's sake!

No, the incest isn't the reason for his ambition, true. Though it is the primary force behind his plan. Without it, the plan simply doesn't work. Her incest/bastards were the primary reason for Ned, Stannis, Renly and John Arryn to take the actions that they did.

Jaime and Cersei were screwing way before she married Robert. Also, Robert cared about Ned and Ned helped the Watch.

Again, NONE, I repeat NONE of those things would have happened if not for their incest. If you want to blame Tywin, fine. But you can't say that the incest wasn't the starting ripple effect.

The point still stands. She captured Tyrion because of what she suspected he had done to Bran. And Bran's fall was again a result of Jaime and Cersei's incest. No incest, no fall, no need to capture Tyrion.

Nothing forced them to sleep with one another. They had those feelings even when they were little as described by Cersei in the books. Without their incest, nothing else that happens in the books would have happened. It was the first proverbial domino. And to say those that dislike Jaime are narrow minded is you being a little narrow minded yourself. Honestly, if I knew any child murders in RL, I don't think they'd ever be able to make it up in life either. And you can't say that he's not a child murder just because Bran lived. He had every intention for him to die in that fall.

Her capturing Tyrion caused the Lannisters to go to war, but why did she capture him again? Oh yeah, because Cersei imprisoned Ned. Why did she do that again? Oh yeah, because he found out about her incestual relationship with Jaime/her bastard children. Jaime's inability to keep it in his pants is the base reason for everything that's happened so far. If he'd have kept it in his pants, then the realm would currently be united under Robert's trueborn Son Joffrey to help the Nights Watch defeat the the Whitewalkers.

What Loras and Renly were doing was just as wrong. Well, I take that back... at least there was no incest/possibility of bastard children involved. Despite what the Targaryens were known to do, Westeros, thought incest a great sin. Honestly, if you really think about it, their incestual love is the butterfly that caused all of the events in this series to unfold. It's the reason Bran was crippled. It's the reason Stannis and Renly rebelled. It's the reason Ned was taken prisoner and beheaded, it's the reason the Lannisters and the North went to war, etc. Honestly, their incestual love is the primary reason for all of the horrors that befell Westeros during the telling of ASoIaF. But Jaime's just so darned lovable!! :bs:

@ The Rock That Roared The fact is, Ned Stark was an honorable man. He was murdered because he decided to do the honorable thing and give Cersei a chance to leave the capital before he told Robert about her incest with Jaime. He knew that it would mean their lives and he wanted to give them a chance to survive. Jaime, on the other hand, threw Ned's son from a window without a second thought. That alone should tell you all you ever need to know about how different they were from one another. As far as Lannisters go, Tyrion seems to be the only one with true honor.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the fact that he was a Kingsguard who was having sex with the Queen..... his twin sister! Yep, you guys are right... he's just SooOOooo lovable! :bang: :)

He made himself into a villain with his own actions. The whole "Ned Stark already judged me without even asking, so I had to go on a 16 year A-HOLE bender for that reason alone!!" crap just doesn't fly with me. Ned Stark didn't make Jaime into a guy who would throw a 9 year old out of a window to his death. That was all Jaime. Honestly, while reading his POV chapters in the books, I actually started to become irate at GRRM. I could tell that he wanted to make Jaime's story about redeeming his honor, but honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

It's fairly obvious that he missed on purpose. He was supposed to kill her, but at the last moment, he couldn't do it. His plan was then to take her hostage and go back to the Half Hand, but the wildlings found them first. I can't believe anyone would believe that he tried to kill her and just missed....

Uh, he "turns his cloak", which is something Mance can relate to. He tells Mance that his side is the one fighting for the living, he kills the Halfhand, who had killed many wildlings, and he also gave both Mance and the other Tormund what they believe is truthful knowledge of what the watch is doing/how the operate. The better question is, what has he done to make them dislike him?

I'd also like to mention that I still hate Jaime Lannister. I mean, it takes him becoming a cripple to ever even attempt to change his arrogant ways (a fate well deserved for making Bran a cripple) and yet everyone acts like he's this awesome character for attempting to redeem himself a little.

I really like how they reminded the non-book audience were John's allegiance still lies. Well, as long as they've been paying attention. They'll know that most of the men from Castle black went north with the old bear and that John is trying to protect them. He is also hesitant at first to break his vows with Ygritte.

I actually like this version better with Robb. In the book, he forsakes a vow because he didn't want to dishonor a lady. Well, that's kind of a contradiction. In the show, he's blinded by love. Which happens in real life to us all. Also, Sansa doesn't know who to trust. I take most of her responses as being a defense mechanism. She only seems to be herself with Shae.