Versiroth

I honestly give up on this conversation as I'm only arguing in circles anyway. I think Jaime's an ass. I feel zero sympathy for Cersei. I think Incest is bad. I hope neither survive to see the 7th book.

There, I'm done. Have at it. :drunk:

In the words of Jaime Lannister, we can't choose who we love.

And why do you say that Cersei would have given Robert an heir if there was no incest? Robert would have still mistreated her and called her Lyanna. She wouldn't have loved him or wanted his children. And she shouldn't be obliged to have his children if she doesn't want to, even if she is the queen, especially since it was probably her father, not her, who decided that she should be queen.

Also, someone up thread said that Jaime is still fighting for the wrong side. Erm, excuse me, he is fighting for his family. There is nor right and wrong side in Westeros. The right side does not equal the Starks.

Wow........

Well, to be fair, they were small children at the time. I'm not sure they were aware it was wrong. You could argue that Joanna's separating them and telling them to never do it again should have been enough but given their age at the time I wouldn't blame either party if it wasn't. Looking at history the Targaryens wed their siblings for centuries, and unless she ever discussed it with them again I'm fairly certain that would convince them that it was alright despite what she said that one time. A child whose mother tells him/her once that what he/she is doing is wrong once doesn't usually have the desired effect. Things usually have to be explained several times to children.

Although, once they became older, yes, they should probably have realized it was wrong if that is the common opinion in Westeros.

Regardess of what happened when they were children, the adults that chose to kill King Robert's true-born fetus and only give birth to Jaime's were adults and completely accountable for their actions. Actions that caused a horrible ripple effect that hurt all of the seven kingdoms. I'm just surprised that people actually try to justify their actions. The incest was completely wrong and absolutely no good came from it at all.

By your logic then why not blame everything on Tyrion? Jaime and Cersei where in that stage when kids are "exploring" their sexuality. They needed to be educated so it wouldn't go the wrong way. Joanna noticed it, so she was trying to keep them separated. But Tyrion was born and Joanna died in childbirth, so she couldn't keep educating them and it went the wrong way. So it is all Tyrion's fault. (which I don't believe)

The incest was a choice. A choice that they continued into their adult lives. You're going to honestly tell me that something that happened due to pure happenstance is equal to two people making a conscience choice, knowing all the while it was wrong?

Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be held accountable for their actions here? Because it seems like that's what you're trying to do. Blame anyone and everyone except for the two responsible.

If Littlefinger was responsible for Jon Arryn's death then the fact that Jamie and Cercei engaged in incest did not cause the course of events to take place. He was killed as a means to furthering his own position, You can make the arguement the fact that Littlefinger was never able to marry Catlyn Stark played a bigger role in the events of the series. The incestous relationship was the excuse he used to trigger his plan, but at the end of the day it was his ambition that caused the civil war.

If there was no incest, then Bran would have never been pushed out of a window. No cripple Bran, no captured Tyrion, No reason for the Lannisters to go to war. Also, if there wouldn't have been any incest, then Cersei would have give birth a a true-born son for Robert. A son that Ned, Stannis and Renly would have protected. So, they would not have gone to war either.

Littlefinger would have been a gun with no bullets without the incest.

If Littlefinger was responsible for Jon Arryn's death then the fact that Jamie and Cercei engaged in incest did not cause the course of events to take place. He was killed as a means to furthering his own position, You can make the arguement the fact that Littlefinger was never able to marry Catlyn Stark played a bigger role in the events of the series. The incestous relationship was the excuse he used to trigger his plan, but at the end of the day it was his ambition that caused the civil war.

No, it was the fact that Robert had no true born sons that causes the war. Which again points to the incest. Ned would have protected Roberts kids unto his death if they would have been his true children.

Yes, but perhaps their parents could have prevented them, or had them reconsider the sense in doing just that in the first place. It's not as if Joanna explained to them why it was wrong when it was discovered by... a maid? I think. She separated them and told them never to do it again. How's that for good parenting? So, we might just call that the reason for the war. All I'm saying is that one person's action never is the single cause. There is always a chain of events leading to the result.

I don't mind people disliking Jaime at all, but most people who hate him can't admit to him even attempting to change, or having any good qualities, because they are blinded by their hatred for him, usually because of what he did to Bran. People can hate him all they like, but to say he is a complete asshole or force of evil without any good qualities at all (as is common by those who dislike him) is just wrong. It's not true. And that is what I oppose and mind. A person who can't admit to his attempts to change for the better when he clearly is, or that he has any good qualities what so ever, strikes me as ignorant. There is definitely more to Jaime than what he did to Bran, and it is a pity when people can't see that.

There are plenty characters I hate in the books, but I would never either of them pure evil or such. With the exception of Joffrey perhaps, or Brienne. They are pretty much black and white, but I'm happily proven wrong.

I don't dislike Jaime because I believe that he's pure evil. I dislike him because of even when he's trying to do something good he comes off as an asshole. He can't get out of his own way long enough to become a truly good character person.

Hold on!! When did I ever said I love Jaime? I'm not a Jaime fan. Is just like I said before:

I hate it when people blame everything in ONE single character (or two in this case). Like when people blame Cat for everything. I'm not a Cat fan, but I hate when people blame her for everything.

All the events happen by multiple actions by multiple people.

Just because you hate when someone claims that one character is the cause of everything doesn't mean I'm wrong. A lot of characters have made a lot of choices to forge the events as a whole, but the first domino in this long chain of events WAS the incestual relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That really can't be denied.

True, but do you remember the night that Joffrey was conceived? Maybe Cersei wouldn't have founded terrible to have at least one kid with Robert if he wouldn't have been such a bad husband.

Let's hope he would. Ned himself noted that Robert was different from the friend he knew.

I believe they could become eventually. I don't think Joffrey was bad all his life and just for being born in incest.

Cersei admitted to once conceiving a baby with Robert and that Jaime took care of it before it could be born. Also, Joffrey was always messed up. Don't you remember the story in Feast about him doing something to a cat that made Robert beat him bloody?

This is just blinded hate.

Then if Bran would have obeyed his mother for once, he wouldn't have fallen because he wouldn't have climbed in the first place.

LOL, wut? It's blind hate to blame twin's incestual relationship for the horrors that occur in this series when EVERYTHING can be pointed to said incest? It's more like blind love on your part for Jaime it would seem. heck, you love for that character has you DEFENDING incest for the seven's sake!

Uh you are over simplifying everything and that's boring. Your leaving out a very important cog in the series of events that is not reliant on the incestuous relationship that you claim. Littlefinger falsely implicated the Lannisters in the death of Jon Arryn conving Lysa to tell the Starks. He also falsely implicated Tyrion Lannister as the mastermind of the plot to kill Bran. Littlefinger's ambition is not a result of Jamie and Cercei's incest.

No, the incest isn't the reason for his ambition, true. Though it is the primary force behind his plan. Without it, the plan simply doesn't work. Her incest/bastards were the primary reason for Ned, Stannis, Renly and John Arryn to take the actions that they did.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

First Cersei wanted to cheat on Robert because Robert was an asshole with her. If Robert would have been a better husband maybe she wouldn't have cheated on him.

Second I don't think Robert would give a fuck about the Night's Watch and the Others. Many people don't believe they exist.

Third Robert and Cersei are both terrible parents, even if they would have had a trueborn child, he would be fucked up.

Jaime and Cersei were screwing way before she married Robert. Also, Robert cared about Ned and Ned helped the Watch.

And if Cat had been smart about it and not charged him the way she did without proper proof, Jaime wouldn't have struck Ned down in King's Landing to make a point, and if Ned hadn't challenged Joffrey's right to the throne he wouldn't have been betrayed and sentenced to death and later beheaded, and if Ned hadn't been beheaded Robb wouldn't have marched on King's Landing.

And if Tywin and Joanna had separated them earlier and brought them up better, it wouldn't have happened either. And if whatever caused them not to hinder their incest in an early stage hadn't happened, it wouldn't have led to the war either. Bla bla bla.

Just sayin'. The war is the result of multiple actions by multiple people.

Again, NONE, I repeat NONE of those things would have happened if not for their incest. If you want to blame Tywin, fine. But you can't say that the incest wasn't the starting ripple effect.

When Cat captured Tyrion, Ned was not imprisoned yet. Cat captured Tyrion because she believed in what Petyr said, that the dagger was Tyrion's.

The point still stands. She captured Tyrion because of what she suspected he had done to Bran. And Bran's fall was again a result of Jaime and Cersei's incest. No incest, no fall, no need to capture Tyrion.

I get so sick of people using that as an argument to enhance that Jaime is an asshole - it's irrelevant to the discussion. People use it as an argument because they think it's nasty (and yes, it is), but it's not being an asshole. What he did to Bran was being an asshole. Screwing Cersei isn't. It would be if Robert had been faithful to her, but he slept with dozens of other women. That the incest is the "cause of the war" I just don't buy; in that case you have to go back to what caused them to sleep with one another, and what caused that to cause that before that, and before that, and before that. Action is the result of an immediate response to an event and continuous choices made by several people after that. The blame is never on a single person - in that case we might as well say that Cat's decision to capture Tyrion because she suspected him to have made the attempt on Bran's life was the "cause of the war".

Also, pushing Bran is the single truly despicable thing Jaime has ever done along with that of killing the prisoner in order to escape. I don't get the hate. Whatever he did in the past will never be justified regardless of what he does in the future, but that some people can't stop hating him and try to look past his errors even after he's showing that he wants to become the man he initially intended to be, and is starting to become that man, just strikes me as narrow-minded. Where is the ability to forgive and look forward? Nothing is ever black or white, least of all people, and it's a pity that some people look at it that way. I pity those that do. And before someone mentions the trebuchet again: it was a trick he pulled knowing Edmure would fold and give up Riverrun at the mere threat of killing that baby, so no, he didn't actually intend to kill the baby.

Nothing forced them to sleep with one another. They had those feelings even when they were little as described by Cersei in the books. Without their incest, nothing else that happens in the books would have happened. It was the first proverbial domino. And to say those that dislike Jaime are narrow minded is you being a little narrow minded yourself. Honestly, if I knew any child murders in RL, I don't think they'd ever be able to make it up in life either. And you can't say that he's not a child murder just because Bran lived. He had every intention for him to die in that fall.

Yeah, sure.. That's just like blaming Catelyn for everything that happened.

Her capturing Tyrion caused the Lannisters to go to war, but why did she capture him again? Oh yeah, because Cersei imprisoned Ned. Why did she do that again? Oh yeah, because he found out about her incestual relationship with Jaime/her bastard children.

Jaime's inability to keep it in his pants is the base reason for everything that's happened so far. If he'd have kept it in his pants, then the realm would currently be united under Robert's trueborn Son Joffrey to help the Nights Watch defeat the the Whitewalkers.

Where is the moral problem of mutual incestuous love? And besides, nobody complains about Loras, a Kingsguard who was having sex with the King, his brother-in-law.

What Loras and Renly were doing was just as wrong. Well, I take that back... at least there was no incest/possibility of bastard children involved. Despite what the Targaryens were known to do, Westeros, thought incest a great sin.

Honestly, if you really think about it, their incestual love is the butterfly that caused all of the events in this series to unfold. It's the reason Bran was crippled. It's the reason Stannis and Renly rebelled. It's the reason Ned was taken prisoner and beheaded, it's the reason the Lannisters and the North went to war, etc.

Honestly, their incestual love is the primary reason for all of the horrors that befell Westeros during the telling of ASoIaF.

But Jaime's just so darned lovable!! :bs:

@

The fact is, Ned Stark was an honorable man. He was murdered because he decided to do the honorable thing and give Cersei a chance to leave the capital before he told Robert about her incest with Jaime. He knew that it would mean their lives and he wanted to give them a chance to survive. Jaime, on the other hand, threw Ned's son from a window without a second thought. That alone should tell you all you ever need to know about how different they were from one another.

As far as Lannisters go, Tyrion seems to be the only one with true honor.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the fact that he was a Kingsguard who was having sex with the Queen..... his twin sister! Yep, you guys are right... he's just SooOOooo lovable! :bang:

:)

It is more than just changing and becoming a better person. At this point you start to realize how he has been made a villain to the eyes of everyone. In the books, you start to learn his story from his own perspective instead of Ned's. (And he tries really hard to make all Lannisters seem so evil). I loved his scene with Roose. There was true terror on his facewhen he thought Cersei might have died.

He made himself into a villain with his own actions. The whole "Ned Stark already judged me without even asking, so I had to go on a 16 year A-HOLE bender for that reason alone!!" crap just doesn't fly with me. Ned Stark didn't make Jaime into a guy who would throw a 9 year old out of a window to his death. That was all Jaime. Honestly, while reading his POV chapters in the books, I actually started to become irate at GRRM. I could tell that he wanted to make Jaime's story about redeeming his honor, but honestly, if he still had his hand, I don't believe he would have changed much at all.

Well, to be fair, her running away was due to Jon's inexperience. I believe he was going to seize her, after missing, but he was slow in reacting, which resulted in her fleeing. To be honest, I think that the whole "missing" thing was meant for us watchers, to make us scream something like "SHIT, HE'S DOING IT!!", just to be relieved immediately afterwards. Or maybe just to scare her off a little bit. I don't know, that scene is a little bit odd, I agree. Anyhow, I think that part of the story makes perfectly stands on its feet. The books were different, but I don't think they were better, in this case (letting Ygritte go was plain dumb, for me). But yes, the show romance feels a bit more like an instant crush than a built up feeling.

It's fairly obvious that he missed on purpose. He was supposed to kill her, but at the last moment, he couldn't do it. His plan was then to take her hostage and go back to the Half Hand, but the wildlings found them first. I can't believe anyone would believe that he tried to kill her and just missed....

In not a fan of T.V. Tormund or Mance. Also, what has Jon done for them to like him? Both have made a point of telling him they like him, but he hasn't really done anything so far.

Uh, he "turns his cloak", which is something Mance can relate to. He tells Mance that his side is the one fighting for the living, he kills the Halfhand, who had killed many wildlings, and he also gave both Mance and the other Tormund what they believe is truthful knowledge of what the watch is doing/how the operate.

The better question is, what has he done to make them dislike him?

I'd also like to mention that I still hate Jaime Lannister. I mean, it takes him becoming a cripple to ever even attempt to change his arrogant ways (a fate well deserved for making Bran a cripple) and yet everyone acts like he's this awesome character for attempting to redeem himself a little.

I really like how they reminded the non-book audience were John's allegiance still lies. Well, as long as they've been paying attention. They'll know that most of the men from Castle black went north with the old bear and that John is trying to protect them. He is also hesitant at first to break his vows with Ygritte.

Robb's decision too marry Talisa has been confirmed to not be about Jeyne's honour, not even impulsive, not motivated by grief, he just doesn't give a crap. Character assination achieved.

Is Sansa's response to Peter suppose to be more of a her stock "I love Joffrey" lies or a legitimate turning down of a wiser path like the rest? Cause if so WHYYYY???

I actually like this version better with Robb. In the book, he forsakes a vow because he didn't want to dishonor a lady. Well, that's kind of a contradiction. In the show, he's blinded by love. Which happens in real life to us all.

Also, Sansa doesn't know who to trust. I take most of her responses as being a defense mechanism. She only seems to be herself with Shae.