GreenDream

Regarding Tywin knowing about Arya: Well, okay, what you wrote just came over as a bit condescending because you mentioned how everyone has already explained a fact that I'm not even argumenting.

And I have no qualms with it only because it's a book deviation. I'm not a purist.

However, I disagree on "there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl". While there is no direct reason to believe she's arya, there's more than enough to believe she's an important girl. Any highborn northern hostage could potentially mean up to a few thousand soldiers less working for Robb (Depending on how well he can use the girl to his advantage). That's far from not important.

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry about that. I was only trying to give credit to others who were arguing the point before I ever mentioned it.

As to her being an important asset. I beg to differ because if she was indeed so important, I believe the other high houses would have talked about a missing high born girl. If she was some highborn girl it would be unlikely that she would be traveling during war time, and if so, it would have been known who she was by the people that were protecting her when captured. Some raggedy girl posing as a boy traveling with strangers doesn't come across as some lady that is important.

I think I would go a little further than a bit unusual. My impression was that her being well read and her speech make her seem highborn(not too mention she is well fed). Not only that but unique for most all the highborn in the North. I know it sounds like I'm bagging on the north but my impression was that only two or three Houses in the north would feature people of such education even at the top. I don't think ravens would be used to send message of Arya to Tywin,agreed. He would have messengers on horseback traveling constantly between Harranhal and KL though. Wouldn't you think he would ask about the two prized prisoners and what they were up to and what condition they were in?

You have no basis on claiming that the northmen aren't well read or well spoken. We haven't had many encounters with northmen to gauge how well educated they are. All large houses have maesters, therefor, they would be taught the same as their southern counterparts. Your claim is just ridiculous. And for her being "well fed" .... well in the show Tywin makes a remark that she is scrawny, and most likely has been underfed all her life, to which she responds that she eats a lot, but is just skinny. This is not evidence that she is highborn or not. You don't have to be highborn to eat. Maybe the peasants in Kingslanding and in the areas that are war- ravaged have recently been going hungry, but there is nothing that says they were starving to begin with.

@greendream: Did you even read what I wrote? I have acknowledged Tywin doesn't know Arya is missing.

And while Arya has a nice story, the dialogue between them, and Tywin's expressions, make it clear that he doesn't buy it.

Yes, I read what you wrote. You said you could accept it on the fact that sending a raven was too dangerous. I was replying that they wouldn't have told him even if it wasn't dangerous to send a raven.

Even if Tywin has his doubts, he doesn't push the questions. and further, there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl. She is intriguing, but to him, nonessential. A point he proves when he leaves her as Gregor's cupbearer.

Now, to begin with, I never liked the fact that they put her as Tywin's cup bearer, instead of Bolton. But for that fact, Bolton never realizes who she really is in the books. You would think he would recognize his own Lord's daughter. Going on with this theme, it's not that far a stretch that Tywin doesn't know who she is either.

Early on in watching the television series, I've come to terms that this isn't the book. Things aren't going to be exactly the same. Some I like, some I don't, but I swallow it all for the sake of enjoying the show. If I sit here and nitpick the details, I'm not going to enjoy the show.

The show makes it pretty clear that Tywin is not fooled by her disguise. While I could accept that he doesn't learn that Arya's missing(Sending such a message per raven could be dangerous if it is interrupted, so they would only send a raven if they deem it necessary).

However, it makes no sense that Tywin would not try to find out which family she is from. Even if she was "just" a Karstark, Umber, or whatever, it could potentially lead to Robb losing up to a few thousand soldiers.

On top of that, there aren't exactly many highborn northern girls running around in the south, so just that should make Tywin very suspicious...

no one has told Tywin that Arya is missing. Like many have explained before me, Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, Purcel etc. are still trying to find her in Kingslanding, they don't want to have Tywin mad at them, so they haven't told him yet.

And I guess you weren't paying attention to the dialogue between Arya and Tywin. Let me sum it up for you. Arya's story so far: She is the daughter of a stonemason who taught her to read. Her mother worked for Lady Dustin for many years and taught her how to talk properly. She is not high born, but somewhat educated. She is from Barrowton.

This might make her seem a bit unusual, but Tywin believes most/all of it. He has asked questions... he did ask where she was from. All of her answers were satisfactory. She knows how to read, and she talks well, other than that she does not look like nor behave like a high born lady.

I don't understand what the big fuss is about. They are condensing the books a bit for the tv show. In the books, Tywin leaves Harrenhal to fight Robb, stuff happens, then he shows up at Kings Landing at the very last minute and saves the day. To me, they are setting it up just like the books did, they are condensing it. In the book Tywin leaves a long time before and Arya then frees the Northmen with the weasel soup, then eventually escapes. Tywin fights with Edmure and the Riverrun men, then gets word about Kingslanding and heads there. It's the same basic structure here..... Just condensed for Tv. There is room in the next episode for Tywin to get some message and turn to Kingslanding in the last minute, or like other people have said, I think it is likely that it is his plan all along to march for Kingslanding and the wording is misleading to the audience viewer so that we won't expect them to come to Kingslanding and save the day at the last minute. Only have a couple days, then we will find out.

Ok so I've come to the conclusion that this tv series is only going to be three seasons. The Red Wedding is no longer a part of the plans. Not in relation to the books anyway. So all those complaining about missing the weasel soup is small potatoes. I figured out as soon as Arya was the cupbearer for Tywin that this was not going to happen. My prediction is that Loras goes down to Kings Landing and Tywin goes to kill Robb. Perhaps Robb will marry Talisia and then Tywin will kill Robb and Catlyn with help from some treachery by Roose.

I still have faith that they are trying to stay on the course of the books as much as possible. I see no reason why they would cut the Red Wedding. It was an integral part of the story. A huge catalyst. In my mind, I can't imagine them not showing the Red Wedding. That was one of the biggest scenes in the story so far. The producers have said they plan on 9 seasons total. I will be disappointed if it gets canceled before then. (so far I don't think it will) I believe the whole reason they had Arya be Tywin's cupbearer, is so they could cut out the whole running away after the attack on the Night's watch recruits, and eventually getting captured, then her life at Harrenhal, then her overthrowing the Lannister men and becoming Roose's cupbearer, then escaping. They just condensed it and put Roose still at Robb's side. They will either have Roose go with Robb and Catelyn to the wedding and go from there, or have him meet up there after some other task. They haven't showed Riverrun and the Tully's yet, but I'm sure they have time to do that....... OR, my own opinion.... they will possibly make The Red Wedding the wedding between Roose and Fat Walda... maybe? But I believe that the BlackFish will be important later on... so we will see how they will handle that. I do no see how Arya being Tywin's cupbearer is going to change the Red Wedding all that much.

All Stannis's men are on ship instead of split up between land and water attack. I was trying to figure out how they were going to play it since Storms End has been erased from the story. I don't understand why Davos brings Melisandre to give birth to what all the readers would see as under Storms End. He rows her to a spot with the iron bars blocking the way and she gives birth. This doesn't make sense since Renly is camped out in the open and not in some castle where they could have bars blocking the way. Not to mention that there is no purpose of taking Melisandre anywhere to give birth since the whole reason this was done was that the spells were to strong at Storms Ends walls. Anyway it seems to me that since all of Stannis's men are on ship they are setting it up for Tyrion to be the great mastermind that destroys his army in the river with some help from Loras(Renlys ghost).

I agree that it was a little confusing, they meshed the two shadow babies. They probably should have put Renly in the castle or something.... but.... I don't think the average viewer really paid that much attention to that part. They just saw them go into some secret place, birth the shadow baby, and then they see the scene with Renly being killed by the shadow baby. It was a little fuddled to us who have read the books, but we understood what was going on none the less. It would have been more confusing to add the story about Edric Storm and the Castellan. And for Stannis' men all being on ship... it looks like they are doing a medieval version of the landing at Normandy ala Saving Private Ryan.

They really made Tywin dumb. He figures out Arya is smart and a highborn girl of the North. Somehow he doesn't figure out that this girl of Aryas age that was incognito is Arya. I guess he figures she is some other highborn girl of the north. He must think she is an Umber or Karstark because they are known as being so brilliant :( Honestly when he discovered that she was highborn last week i thought he was stating that he knew who she was but now he just leaves her with the Mountain. Your guess on this one would have to be as good or better than mine.

I also had problems with Tywin having Arya so close. To me, I think Tywin is too clever, and would have found out who she was. To her credit she claimed to be from Barrowton, which is semi believable. I love the books, and I wish they could do the story exactly how it is written, but I understand a lot of the changes they have had to make. Some I don't understand. But I am still thoroughly enjoying the HBO series, and can't believe the series is almost over. :(

Didnt she kill a fat boy in KL (at least in the book)?

Yes, the stable boy. When she was fleeing the red keep and came upon the wagon that she was supposed to leave in. She found all her father's men dead. She found her chest and found needle in it, then the boy came and said he was going to get the guards. She stabbed him in the belly. Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

I think it would be a good idea to compress the action in books 3 and 4 at least. After all, what has to be accomplished? Ooops, quite a bit actually. Jon has to finish his ranging, come back, get promoted, and then ? Dany has to go from not much to quite a lot. Arya takes up residence in Bravos. Sansa and Littlefinger to the Aerie (in principle this could be skipped, but whence those two?). The Red Wedding of course. The Addamms (er...Lannister) family reunion. Stannis fights another day and another day. Will the Dorne subplot remain? No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.

C u n t . Not sure where the origins of this word come from... but it is one that Martin definitely used in the books repeatedly.

edit to add: I looked it up in wiki.... guess it has been in use since before the 1200's:

Cunt has been in common use in its anatomical meaning since at least the 13th century. While Francis Grose's 1785 A Classical Dictionary of The Vulgar Tongue listed the word as "C**T: a nasty name for a nasty thing",^[19] it did not appear in any major English dictionary from 1795 to 1961, when it was included in Webster's Third New International Dictionary with the comment "usu. considered obscene". Its first appearance in the Oxford English Dictionary was in 1972, which cites the word as having been in use since 1230 in what was supposedly a London street name of "Gropecunte Lane". It was, however, also used before 1230, having been brought over by the Anglo-Saxons, originally not an obscenity but rather a factual name for the vulva or vagina. Gropecunt Lane was originally a street of prostitution, a red light district. It was normal in the Middle Ages for streets to be named after the goods available for sale therein, hence the prevalence in cities having a medieval history of names such as "Silver Street" and "Fish Street".

As much as I want to see more Arya, one of the great elements in the development of her character is when she is forced to be a "mouse" in Harrenhall because to be otherwise would mean her death. She has a lot of internal dialogue about no longer being a wolf and I think D&D have portrayed that through her skulking in corners and having little power. She still has a backbone of iron but she has to hide it. Jaqen is the only connection she has to power and I would have to say, she uses that. The scene where she names him gave me chills. All of their interactions together are beautifully done. In my humblest of opinions, I think the portrayal of Arya is spot on, although we don't get some of her more rebellious thoughts spelled out for us. I really was sad that weasel soup didn't make an appearance, but since Weasel was never introduced as part of Yoren & co. and Arya didn't go through her series of fake names etc. that wouldn't have packed quite the same punch in the show. "A girl has no honor."

I agree with most of this, but I was very disappointed when they didn't show Arya kick Hot Pie's butt when he wanted to take her sword. I think that would have set her up to show how tough and spirited she was. It would have lent more to her becoming a "mouse" at Harrenhall. They skipped that part, and her slitting the guard's throat too. And her practicing her "needlework" (which, I felt, showed her holding onto her inner wolf) In my opinion, HBO is trying to make her look more like a weak little girl, than one with juevos. Hopefully they will start showing her transition more. Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I just didn't feel like the changes exactly did her justice. They could have at least put in the scene with Hot Pie, and her doing "needlework". :(

A quote from wiki: [idiot's] modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person").

Well, the books are set in the middle ages roughly. I know this is an imaginary world, but wiki puts the medieval time period between the 5th to 15th centuries, depending. according to weapons of the time : (from wiki)

Gunpowder weapons

Cannon (1324)

Cannons are first recorded in Europe at the siege of Metz in 1324. In 1350 Petrarch wrote "these instruments which discharge balls of metal with most tremendous noise and flashes of fire...were a few years ago very rare and were viewed with greatest astonishment and admiration, but now they are become as common and familiar as any other kinds of arms."^[1]]]

Volley gun

See Ribauldequin.

Corned gunpowder (14th, late)

First practiced in Western Europe, corning the black powder allowed for more powerful and faster ignition of cannon. Also facilitated storage and transportation to operational area, thus constituting a crucial step in the evolution of gunpowder warfare.

Scottish bombard Mons Meg

Supergun (14th, late)

Extant examples include the wrought-iron Pumhart von Steyr, Dulle Griet and Mons Meg as well as the cast-bronze Faule Mette and Faule Grete (all 15th century).

[edit] Mechanical artillery

Counterweight trebuchet (12th)

Powered solely by the force of gravity, these catapults revolutionized medieval siege warfare and construction of fortifications by hurling huge stones unprecedented distances. Originating somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean basin, counterweight trebuchets were introduced in the Crusader states by the 1120s, Byzantium by the 1130s and in the Latin West by the second half of the century.^[33]

[edit] Missile weapons

Longbow with massed, disciplined archery (13th)

Having a high rate of fire and penetration power, the longbow contributed to the eventual demise of the medieval knight class. Used particularly by the English to great effect against the French cavalry during the Hundred Years' War (1337–1453).

Steel crossbow (14th, late)

European innovation. Came with several different cocking aids to enhance draw power, making the weapons also the first hand-held mechanical crossbows.

So I would guess the world of the Song of Ice and Fire is set roughly between 1200-1400 maybe. We don't have any cannons or gunpowder which was seen later in the middle ages, but we have trebuchets, which were seen about 1200. Not to say that Martin didn't pick and chose what elements he wanted in his story. He didn't set it in a definate time setting compared to our real history. I still say that it is a stretch that the term "idiot" would be used in it's modern meaning. I don't recall Martin ever using it in his books. If someone has a kindle version they could search his text. I may be wrong, but I feel the word should not have been used. It stuck out for me.

Thanks ;)

All in all, I thought this was a great episode. I understand what they are doing with Talisa... I only wonder why they had to change her name and backstory, but oh well, not a big deal. I agree Catelyn letting the Kingslayer loose looses sympathy because she hadn't gotten word of Bran and Rickon yet, and she still believed that Arya was alive.

My biggest complaint is how they changed Arya's storyline. In the books she was this little ninja wild girl with a strong spirit. We are only seeing little glimpses of her spirit now. She is made to be a little helpless girl who goes running to Jaqen when she needs help. She isn't getting her hands dirty at all. They haven't shown her practising with her stick, heck, they have only shown her "prayer" once. I understand they want to condense and simplify the storyline, but I was really disappointed that they cut the whole part about her and the weaselsoup and freeing the northmen who end up betraying and killing her brother and mother. That was a huge ironic twist, out of the frying pan and into the fire. A lot of people like the Tywin/Arya interactions, but i didn't. I understand why they did it, but still didn't like it. And they need to show what a monster the Mountain is! Right now he is just some brute, but not very intimidating. :(

Oh, and one little nitpit: they used the word "idiot" like 4 times this episode. If I remember correctly this is a fairly recent use of the word. It would not have been used in that context back then. They should have used words like "fool" or "simpleton" etc. ok I'm done for now. :)