BlueDragon

They have killed off too many characters to mount a serious resistance to the WW if both Jon and Stannis are dead. And Dany was supposed to have Drogon by her side when the Dothraki road up. I don't like that blinding Ayra was punishment, not training. boooooooo

too many dead character make for no story at all.

Jon has to survive somehow. At this rate there won't be a single person who can warn Danny about the WW

But how is a battle between two sides, where we care about neither side (anymore), good writing? Or even remotely interesting? If we don't care about the characters on either side, what investment do we have in the outcome?

Soldiers in war often learn that both sides are beyond redemption. That is reality. I watched most of this series without caring who won the battles. I will care about the WW vs. Jon/Dany and whomever. I can't see the show or books ending without Jon/Dany; therefore, Jon is not dead (with or without Martin's ironic question regarding Jon).

But caring about Stannis vs. Ramsey? I will be invested in what comes out of that conflict, not the conflict.

And no one will sit the iron throne for any significant time in the future.

. . .

Readers aren't getting spoiled. We're having our theories confirmed. A great number of us is convinced Shireen will get burnt. The show confirmed. But Stannis won't do it. Because it's geographically impossible and unlike in the show, in the books, people need weeks or months to travel. Stannis was facing a blizzard the last time we saw him. Is he going to cross through it back to the Wall to say "please, burn my child so the blizzard I can't defeat but I just did because I got here alive can go away"?.

I'm very very sure that GRRM said something of the likes of "Shireen will die in name of Stannis' cause after they believe his chances are doomed". That is definitely not the same as "Stannis will burn his own daughter". And that would make more sense with the man who GRRM has created. Because yes, I can see how people would believe -in the book universe- that Stannis would want that to happen. And maybe it's too late for Stannis to realise how much he's losing on the way of the Throne. The guy who doesn't bend (allegedly) might eventually break when he finds out his daughter is dead in name of his own cause.

There is no reason that Stannis can't prevail in the Winterfell battle and still be in a position where he believes he must sacrifice Shireen later in the book narrative. Martin has thousands of pages in which to accomplish this.

D&D spoiled the books in their recap, but they have already spoiled the books in the show, e.g. Tyrion is already with Dany and they are setting up to end the season with Jon either killed for real and/or revived in Season 6.

D&D are forcing thousands of pages into far too few shows and not making wise decisions. That doesn't mean that they are deviating from the overall plot line. What would be the payoff for doing that? Martin chose to go forward with this project. He must have known the show would outpace his writing and he chose to travel a lot and participate in show related stuff rather than write.

There are many ways to make Stannis clearly responsible for Shireen's death whether he is right by her side or not.

Stannis is not grey for them. He is plain evil. Gregor level.

Key word here is AMBITION. And the writters said it. Thats how they get the guy.

It was AMBITION vs FAMILY.

Stannis is the worst human being in the five seasons. Nobody has done something as evil and selfish as him.

I have never particularly liked Stannis, but I don't see him as the most evil and selfish character for burning his child. He is a rigid thinker. Nothing else about his psychology is nearly as dominant as his rigidity. In his mind, Shireen was the sacrifice he had to make to save Westeros. Both my favorite shows have made the same error in the past two weeks: pushing a character through a crisis too fast. We needed to see Stannis struggle with his decision. Even 30 seconds of a change on his face would have helped.

I don't want to rank horrors, but torture is not the same as killing. It just isn't. Torture is MUCH worse than killing and always has been. If anything, the torturous aspect of burning is the worst of what he did to Shireen. A clean death like the one Ned gave Lady would have been far preferable. But the red god is only interested in burning as I understand it, right?

Killing your child is not the worst kind of evil, sorry to say.

Read Medea. The Greeks saw the tragedy in her murder of her children. She wasn't the worst evil possible.

We are moving past the books. This was going to happen.

Readers/viewers have the right to make certain characters their favorites but such choices always reveal something about said individuals.

Anyone favoriting Ramsey scares the crap out of me.

Fans believing anyone will sit the iron throne at the end of all of this have a strange world view given that virtually every character is grey.

There are few characters I could back for any kingship/queenship in this world and none without some concern for both the character and those inhabiting this world. Jon is perhaps the least tainted, but he did abandon Yigrite and he his heart is horribly divided.

He is there praising a show and a book that have been adapted good. He also said "and the books are better". Also, he's saying Edmure actor is there, and he hopes they can call him again.

Subtext: They ruined my books. I hate GoT. Go and see something else. Bastards.

ETA: fixing a lot of mistakes cuz my brain kinda blinked :lol:

You are kidding. This is the worst misreading/projection I have ever seen. And by the way, Outlander created a stunning finale episode (at least until they cured Jaime in like ten minute of screentime). The acting was Oscar worthy.

I don't disagree, but its funny how the Boltons seem like secondary antagonists when you consider what they have done.

Betrayed the fan favourite family... literally stabbing them in the heart

Raped the daughter of the fan favourite family

Tortured and gelded a fan favourite

Sends a man to kill/kidnap the crippled child of the fan favourite family

Hunts, rapes and skins women

And yet these guys still aren't the 'big bad'

thank you except there is simply never going to be one 'big bad' in this narrative. there always will be characters whose actions are at one point horrendous and at another admirable in some way. that is the author's philosophy and chosen point of view.

why can't readers and viewers accept this as what they have signed on for?

the boltons, the freys, the lannisters, whomever are never going to be the ultimate big bad. if any group has a chance at that it is the white walkers.

and I was never a big fan of book Stannis. show Stannis is somewhat more tolerable, but there is no way I ever thought he was heroic material.

no ranking horrors is something we don't want to get into, but for me the worst human creature in the story has to be Ramsey.

and I agree, Roose would flay Ramsey on a moment's notice if it were to benefit him.

Is there any doubt that the Baratheons are the main human antagonists now? Even the Lannisters are more morally ambiguous.

THE BOLTONS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

Stannis was never going to be a good guy. Readers who thought that were revealing something about themselves. It certainly isn't in the narrative. He feels he has never received his due. He will do anything to be in control. Now, the show script may not have developed his transition at the moment he sees he is about to starve outside of Winterfell, but the logic concerning his burning Shireen fits with his behavior to date. Killing his brother with a shadow baby. Come on. The worst his little brother did was challenge him: don't challenge Stannis. He doesn't react well to losing face even.

I'm not entirely surprised. The show's pacing is way off, but I doubt very much D&D would have allowed Stannis to do this if it did not fit with where the books are going.

People are going to be massively disappointed if they think the books will be fundamentally different from the show in the end. There may be many short cuts, but the whole point of the initial meeting D&D had with Martin was to make sure they understood his central themes.

No one is good or bad in these books. Everyone is a mix. The more characters contradict their earlier actions, the more Martinesque they become.

No one will hold the iron throne.

Humans may not even survive. I'd expect darn near anything. Isn't that what most readers say?

dp

So Madame Cleo couldn't see Ramsey and his commandos coming?

Well, the worst thing about this is the fact that fire is HER weapon, so for a second, I thought she started the fires.

Maybe she allowed Ramsey to succeed so that Stannis would be desperate enough to burn Shireen.

In this history of the human species, it is arguably possible that rape comprises the majority of acts of heterosexual copulation. At least a sizable chunk.

I think one of the great ways GRRM's books are progressive is by showing the hideous nature of human history, warts and all. That not only includes rape, it puts it front and center.

Sorry, but if we can have 3 trial-by-combats in 5 seasons, I think 5 rapes in the same amount of time is perfectly reasonable. Rape was EXTREMELY common up until a few hundred years ago.

How the hell do you know? We can't even get decent statistics now; we sure don't have them for earlier historical periods.

Not to mention the fact that women like sex and that love stories are as old as the hills.

The "dark ages" weren't all that dark according to recent scholarship.

I am beyond sick of the "historical justification for rape" line of many GOT fans.

Rape is common today. There is no real reason to see it as more common in earlier times.

I love this show. I am ridiculously addicted to this show and this narrative as a whole. D&D constantly waste screen time with unnecessary embroidery, which might be nice if they had the time and budget, but they do not.

Every single episode this season wasted time on fluff or boobs or whatever when so many critical elements need time to be developed. I don't care if next week is 65 minutes, it will feel like 15 and we won't even have time to respond emotionally.

Jaime confesses to Tyrion, Tyrion climbs through the walls and kills Shae and Tywin

Jaime and Cersei have some private time. Why?

Tyrion escapes; Varys disappears

Arya and the Hound do something critical AND Arya gets on a boat to Bravos

Bran gets to the tree and learns his destiny (that is a movie in itself)

Jon treats with Mance and Stannis comes to the rescue. Sam and Gilly do something significant.

Dany discovers Drogon is eating little girls. Dragons are locked up except for the worst perpetrator.

I am sure there is a lot more that I have left out.

Why kill most of Jon's supporters before he becomes commander? Pip and Grenn were nicely developed characters. Now, Jon is alone at the wall except for Sam.

Adding stuff while not giving us a full hour is inexcusable. I am sure there is stuff on the cutting room floor that would help satisfy some of this.

Very frustrating. In one week, I will be in withdrawal again.

There are elements in this season which makes me believe that Benioff did not use only the begining of AFFC and ADWD and the last half of ASOS to make the show, they gave us some of WOW

Yes, next season will include a fair amount of WOW and the show is going to finish before the last novel is out. George will probably change the story up, but for me, I am just happy that I get to see a version which is obviously sanctioned by the author.

but there are other places here you can talk about it. General Chatter is one place if you were going to compare the slavery shown in Essos with real day matters.

I get that, but slavery is a real issue in the show and many on this blog want to 'justify' all sorts of things that happen in this narrative with the line 'it was like that in the Middle Ages' (which I find dubious, at best, but no matter at present).

And narrative exists to teach humans how to be human and what to do and what not to do. So what the show and book narrative teaches us couldn't be more important.

Also, lots of people want to condemn Dany for her mistakes while they redeem everyone from Jaime to the Hound to Stannis.

I think discussing all of this is relevant on the main threads.

It's worth remembering that LF engineered the poisoning and Sansa's escape, guided the Tyrells to not only want Joffrey dead but Loras in the KG (in the books), and has been a Lannister- Tyrell macher the whole time. I could see Olenna taking LF's word that Sansa would be safe enough for her conscience.

This sounds right to me.

My point was that it actually wasn't at first. There were many white and black indentured servants in the new world. And I don't want to get into a debate about who the first slave owner was in what would become the United States, but at least one of the first legally recognized slave owners was a black man who sued and won indefinite custody of another black man, despite testimony from two white indentured servants that the black servant had fulfilled his agreement.

I know this, so why are you being so snarky about slavery? I know all this and more.

It is impossible to have a serious discussion on this blog about serious issues without the whole discussion descending into drivel and/or attack?

It evolved into that but it certainly didn't start that way.

That is what I said. Slavery was not based on race till New World slavery arrived on the scene.

But slavery in Westeros has been abolished, or never used?

Slavery in this story is appears only in Essos, where the colored people live.

But even Dany was enslaved as a woman and Cersei certainly feels that she has been used as a broodmare, as a slave, in effect. I agree with her on that point. Women in Westeros are kept in line through the threat of rape just the way they are kept in line on Earth through the threat of rape.

Slavery and gender abuse clearly overlaps in the novels.

Thanks but I already know that but within the books we are not speaking of slavery on those terms etc.

How is the slavery in the books different from slavery anywhere else, anytime else? Slavery is unfortunately very common in human history and even pre-history (archeological evidence for it in pre-history)

I don't get your point. Really, I don't.

Oh god, by that definition, everyone through history who doesn't share our values today was a cruel human being. It's ridiculous to make judgments like that without taking anything else into account.

I've read "Beloved", by the way. I've read quite a few books about the horrors of slavery as well as segregation- I'm not saying it was okay. But I'm not going to say that everyone who ever owned a slave was a 'cruel and terrible' human being, because that's in no way true. Slavery has been used by every culture in the world at one point or another as an economic tool - it's no different in Essos.

Slavery, right now, today, is increasing all over the world. I do not argue for an ahistorical approach.

I simply recognize that to participate in slavery, no matter what your circumstances is to participate in cruelty.

And slavery was not based on color of skin till we got to the Americas, and by we, I mean Western civilization.

GRRM outright stated that Olenna intended for Sansa to take the fall (if need be, in the book; in the show, the different nature of the poison meant that poisoning would be obvious).

Could you supply a citation for that assertion?

Wrong. Most 'slave masters' are products of their time and environment. That doesn't make them bad people. You can be a good man and a slave master. Actually, you would hope that slaves had good men over bad men. But basically, all nobility owned slaves, therefore making them slave masters. It's basically condemning people for being born rich.

Please add Toni Morrison's Beloved to your reading list. Being a product of your times does not absolve anyone of anything.

Morrison explains carefully in that book how even the 'best' slave master is a cruel human being. One of the great masterpieces of all time that book is.

What "proof", really? And proof is really not of much use to her -- even if she convinced the Lannisters she wasn't involved, they'd still lock her back up in King's Landing and arrange a new marriage for her. She wouldn't ever want to go to them anyway.

They can't do new marriage as Tyrion escapes and the church is not going along with that.

Margaery, maybe, but Olenna either agreed to give her to Littlefinger in the first place or wanted her sitting next to Tyrion in the prisoner's box (or possibly sitting there solo). She's no friend of Sansa's.

No way did Olenna want Sansa caught in that way. She is clever, not mean to innocents. This is one of the mysteries of who did what with the poison and when.

Dany is obviously in over her head and making mistakes right and left. This is not the same thing as saying she is immoral or going dark although the scenes mentioned above sure emphasize that.

Hidzzy is not a reliable narrator. I think the show used him to make a point and give him some sympathy factor for the viewers while demonstrating Dany's mistake.

As far as I am concerned, all slavers in a slaving community are guilty. If you don't understand how I could take that position, read Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk away from Omelas"

There is no such thing as a good slave master.

Dany obviously has a lot to learn, but she is wise enough to know she is not ready for Westeros.

I love the way DWD ended. She learned a lot during that alone time with Drogon. She is going to be different when we see her next.

I repeat, to both the Unsullied and to the Book Readers... what moron in the seven kingdoms wouldn't question Petyr's sudden bastard/niece?

Maybe this is a book flaw that the show writers are trying to resolve?

ETA and for Varys to have intel about the Hound, surely one of his little birds mentioned the girl travelling with the Hound.

Which leads me to think that someone in the Vale will use her or support her against Littlefinger.

Her cousin is going to do/say what when he discovers his mother is dead?

The knights of the Vale are not going to let all of this go without snooping around a lot.