Newstar

Someone pointed out in the Val thread over on the Casting board that Tormund's capture by the NW pretty much renders Val's mission to retrieve him unnecessary and therefore suggests that she'll be left out of the adaptation. Someone else pointed out that Pyp and Grenn being killed off suggested that D&D were making way for new characters at the Wall...so I don't know what to think, LOL.

Oh my God, that was amazing. Pretty much the best part of the episode, for me at least.

Favourite part of the episode was Jon horrified at seeing Ygritte with an arrow sticking out of her and looking over to see Ollie nodding at him proudly, like "You're welcome." It was weirdly hilarious. The sword fighting with Kit looked awesome.

Outstanding.

I wasn't feeling Kit's acting when Ygritte was dying. Note to Kit: scrunching your face up is not acting. Pretty much everyone saw Ollie killing Ygritte coming a mile away, so that was no great surprise.

The promo and 4x10 ep synopsis make it pretty clear that Stannis is showing up next episode. Wait, what? (Assuming you mean other than Craster raping her back when.)

D&D said that they'd kill off a character who was still alive in the books. If I'm not mistaken, Pyp, Grenn and Thorne are all still alive in the books, no?

Noooo, Grenn! Noooo, Pyp!

Is Thorne dead? Missed that part.

I liked Arya laughing at news of Lysa's death, even though it seems like it would be out of character for her. My take on the beetle monologue on a meta level was Orson = GRRM, beetles = ASOIAF characters, and Tyrion = horrified audience. :D It did seem to dovetail with a lot of the other plotlines in the episode featuring horrible brutality: Ramsay, Gregor, the wildling attack, etc. I really thought this would be the episode where Arya abandoned the Hound, but I guess they're saving that for the finale. I'm also surprised we didn't get a scene with Pod and Brienne, but I'm also guessing that they're saving something big for the finale for that arc, if you know what I mean and I think you do. Sansa's last scene in 4x08 seemed to tie off her arc neatly, but I assume we'll get to "check in" with her in 4x10.

The Coen Brothers comparison is apt, since Tyrion's speech brought to mind their movie A Serious Man, where the protagonist grapples with trying to find meaning in all the horrible things happening to him.

The Discussing Sansa thread is going to be epic.

Me, too. It makes Grey Worm and Missandei something other than props in Dany's storyline, the actors have great chemistry, what's not to like? A++ literary reference.

I'm seeing a lot of Unsullied comments to the effect of "Oberyn is so awesome that GRRM's just going to kill him off." Well...they're not wrong...

If anything, I think the lure of the show spoiling the books would reel in more viewers, even those who never had any intention of reading the books to begin with. The spice of "forbidden" knowledge and all that. Even the purist book fans will likely be unable to resist; I can see them now gnashing their teeth as they engage in hate-watching, inexorably sucked in by their own desperate desire for knowing what happens next, hating the show for forcing them to compromise their fidelity to the books, hating themselves for their weakness, but drawn like moths to immolate themselves in the spoilery flames. :D The showrunners have specifically ruled out any such hiatus, pointing to the kid actors growing up so rapidly. You can't put the kid actors growing on pause, sadly.

I'd like to attribute a lot more weight to Arya's TWOW killing finding its way into Season 4, since that means that D&D must have seen that chapter before the spring of 2013, when they were writing Season 4, but that Arya chapter has been languishing for a long time, much like the Sansa chapter. That doesn't speak to new material, just to very old material that was sitting around that hasn't found its way into the books yet. Using the Arya chapter, or the bumped Sansa chapter, or the other bumped chapters from ADWD as evidence that "a lot of" TWOW stuff is finished makes no sense to me, as they are leftover chapters from ADWD. And if indeed GRRM had most of Jon's stuff done 10 years before ADWD's release, that's another indication there's not that much proximity in terms of time between GRRM finishing "a lot of stuff" on a novel and its completion and release.

On the show passing the books...this dilemma happens all the time in Japan, when popular ongoing comic book series ("manga") are adapted at the height of their popularity for TV in animated form ("anime"). Manga are published weekly or monthly. Manga are not so much like DC or Marvel comic books, which start a title and then keep it running indefinitely as long as it's popular and are more like Vertigo series like Y: The Last Man that have a planned beginning, a middle, and a conclusion regardless of popularity, although a few of them can go on for as long as 20 years and the more popular series often have dragged-out conclusions to milk the series for all it's worth. The TV folks want to strike while the iron is hot, so they'll start working on an adaptation even while the manga is still going on and hasn't been concluded yet. So what happens when the anime adaptation starts when the manga is still ongoing and isn't finished yet? 1. Manga already finished or finishes before the anime: Anime incorporates manga canon, is very faithful. 2. Anime only uses published manga story and is too short to adapt all of manga story (a 12-episode anime, e.g.), manga is ongoing: Anime only adapts a discrete chunk of the manga, showing part of the story, manga keeps on rolling. 3. Anime runs out of published manga story and is ongoing indefinitely, manga is ongoing: Anime uses non-manga "filler arcs" with enclosed new plots, giving the anime time to kill until there's fresh manga material available to adapt for the anime. 4. Anime runs out of published manga story and needs to conclude, manga is ongoing: Anime will deviate from the manga story to come up with a satisfactory ending. Interestingly, there was a massively popular series called Fullmetal Alchemist where this problem arose. The FMA anime started up when the manga was still ongoing but was less than halfway through the total number of chapters that would be published (with chapters being published once a month). Predictably, the anime ran out of story, and so the anime deviated significantly from the manga and came up with its own back half of the plot and its own conclusion. A completely off-source, new animated movie was made using the anime canon. Eventually, of course, the manga was about to be completed. So another anime was made (FMA: Brotherhood), remaking the entire series and from beginning to end adhering pretty strictly to manga canon (although the manga and the anime finished pretty close to one another, as I recall). They even used a number of the same voice actors for the characters. So bringing that list back to ASOIAF, I've seen fans suggesting a #2 solution--D&D only adapting through the end of the published books--a #3 solution--D&D killing time, either with "filler arcs" (Robert's Rebellion) or with a hiatus--as well as a #4 solution: D&D deviate from the books and come up with a non-book ending to tie everything off nicely. However, D&D have specifically ruled out a hiatus, and they have also successfully demanded details on all the characters' post-ADWD plots, which would seem to rule out an intentional deviation in the event that GRRM is unable to finish the books in time (since if they were going to come up with their own ending, why would they need that information?). Nor can I see them marching up to the end of ADWD and saying "Oops, sorry guys, guess you're on your own." While there's a chance, albeit what seems like a remote one to me, that TWOW could be released prior to Season 5, I don't see any way ADOS gets released by the spring of 2018, which it would have to be to stay ahead of the eighth season if there are even eight seasons and not seven.

GRRM sold the rights in 2007. That's right: 2007. The show's first season didn't air until 2011. So in addition to all the books published by 2007, GRRM had a four-year head start on the show, and even assuming a seven-season series with a final season airing in 2017, he had 10 years starting in 2007 to publish the remaining three books, and six years from the publication of ADWD to publish TWOW and ADOS. If it hadn't taken so long to get the series to air in 2011, GRRM's situation would be even more dire. So nope, no sympathy here.

I think all the women have looked more attractive this season. Shae was luminous in the trial scene, Carice van Houten looked even more stunning than usual in that scene from the 4x07 promo where she gazed into the flames, and Margaery has looked incredible.

Direction in this episode was on point, although in general I've been really impressed with the directing in Season 4.

Another book/show change I caught... Apart from the part about colluding with Sansa to kill Joffrey and the details of how he carried out the murder, most of what TV Shae said about Tyrion was...pretty much true? Book Shae told some pretty ridiculous lies--Tyrion arranged for the death of the boy she was to marry, Tyrion forced her to become a whore, Tyrion threatened to give her to the wildlings if she didn't bed him, Tyrion raped her repeatedly, etc. etc.--but TV Shae..well... Tyrion hated Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin? True. Shae was Tyrion's whore? True. Shae was with a knight in the Lannister army (the "ginger-haired cunt" Bronn mentioned in 1x09) when Bronn broke the knight's arm and brought her to Lord Tyrion? True, except for the part about the arm, and that could be true, since we never got the details of how Bronn took Shae away from the "ginger-haired cunt" she was with. He told her "I want you to fuck me like it's my last night in this world"? True. Shae did everything he wanted, and whatever he told her to do? True. Shae was his property? Pretty much. Shae would wait in his chambers for hours so he could have sex with her when he was bored? True, from what we've seen. Tyrion ordered her to call him "My lion"? This one's false. Shae told him "I am yours and you are mine"? True. Tyrion only wanted Sansa and not Shae after marrying Sansa? Well, from Shae's perspective, Tyrion lost all interest in having sex with her after marrying Sansa, so I can see why she might think that. Sansa wouldn't let Tyrion into her bed? Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but true.

Oooh, good catch!

You know, if Sansa kills Lysa herself, I would make my peace with it, but it seemed like part of the power of "Only Cat"--and Littlefinger immediately framing someone else--is that it shows just how cold and cruel Littlefinger can be: it wasn't enough to kill Lysa, it was to ensure that her last thought would be the realization that he never loved her. I'm wondering how the show will handle this. I'm also wondering how the show will deal with TV Bronn telling Tyrion he put Shae on a boat. If there's a Tyrion/Bronn scene in 4x07, I imagine the first thing Tyrion would ask Bronn would be "What the fuck, Bronn?"

No clue. That was part of the reason I thought Only Cat might be delayed until 4x10, since the show hasn't introduced a patsy yet and there's no Marillion. Someone suggested using Mord, which would be an elegant solution, but I don't even know if that actor's back for Season 4. It could just be some random guard.

Favourite comment about the episode so far, from the AV Club commenters' thread: (About Tyrion's speech): "That was some real wrestling villain talk, right down to the crowd booing." Laughing forever. It's funny because it's true.