Pod The Impaler

Maggie looks better then I thought she would

I have to admit: Maggy The Frog was more like Maggy the MILF. :leer: :blush:

Definitely leaning that way.

I can't believe no one mentioned this: Tysha

Yes, but I think Mercy was more Shae than Sansa personality wise.

I think people do have to keep in mind that the character "Mercy" plays is something of a mockery of the person it's supposed to be; the play itself is a political tool to please the Lannister guests, so certain liberties have been taken with the characters portrayed.

If it's Shae, is it really Shae? Or the trial version of Shae - poor little maid turned into a whore by the evil Imp ? If it's Sansa, is it real Sansa? No, it's more likely the fair-seeming maid who's really the sister and daughter of a traitor, who conspires with the evil Imp to poison the good young king, before using witchcraft to turn into a winged wolf and fly away ? (In other words: Fair is foul and foul is fair.)

Non-spoilers discussion: 10 replies. (well, 11 now)

Spoilers-OK discussion: 1438 replies, 72 pages. :lol:

When I read that Jon was sent on a suicide mission to kill Mance, it seemed kind of over the top to me. Like "seriously - all this stuff is happening and you're going to be petty enough to send Jon on a pointless suicide mission that will almost certainly fail and probably backfire?" It would feel much more that way in the show because events played out differently. Also, Jon going on a suicide mission feels like a man might respond to watching the woman he loved die, sending a friend on a suicide mission, and being in a hopeless situation with a hero complex.

Yeah, I am not sure how I feel about that change.

On the one hand, it makes Jon more heroic, and I guess with Ygritte dying it makes some sense. On the other hand, it removes some of the blinkered hatred we see from Thorne & Slynt, gladly throwing Jon's life away. (Plus the act as planned out itself is not honourable, and Jon's a Stark).

I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this plays out.

Ok Cool, So do you think she is playing Sansa? lets break it down. What about the role makes you think Sansa and not Shae?

The fruit knife belonged to Mercy. She was made for eating fruit, for smiling and joking, for working hard and doing as she was told.

“If the Snapper comes looking for me, tell her that I went off to read my lines again.” She only had a few, and most were just, “Oh, no, no, no,” and “Don’t, oh don’t, don’t touch me,” and “Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden”

These two lines, especially the latter, suggest to me it is Sansa, not Shae.

In the former, the part about doing what she was told seems to be an echo of Sansa always trying to be the good girl, sweet and obedient.

The latter line mentions Mercy's character is a maiden - a virgin.

She was known to be a whore, certainly no innocent maiden. What maiden did Tyrion have in his life (that the playright would know about) ?

There would be little drama in raping a lowborn whore, but the innocent maid from the north ? Tyrion's wedding to Sansa was a big bit of scandal, especially that he had not taken her maidenhood. Perhaps the gist of the play is that he wanted to but perhaps could not function as a husband (a good bit of theatre, if the point is to humiliate the foe of Queen Cersei), but then at the end he is able because he monstrously rapes her, and then this leads to Joffrey's poisoning, where she leaves him to face trial alone.

However, I am open to the possibility that the line may also mean the play is supposed to show Tyrion raping a common maid (Shae) and making her into his whore, though this runs counter to what would be publicly known about Shae.

Well, Evita MGF gave answer just now - the text (which we have so far) provides only clues, not certainty.

I read the entire 1st incarnation of this thread (yes, every page), and as I recall it was never everyone who had that opinion.

I believe it has been decided that Arya is playing Shae, not Sansa.

Decided by whom ?

MERCY’S SMILE

Martin SHOWS, he does not TELL, the progress of an internship embarked upon by an acolyte, a native of Westeros, who trains as a faceless assassin.

Arya’s last POV in ADwD promises further education for Arya when the kindly man assesses that “No One” is ready for an internship with Izembaro, whose identity was much discussed on the forums. Predictably, the “Mercy” POV places Arya in the “role” of Mercy who seemingly functions as a stage manager with the King of the Mummers, Izembaro himself.

It appears that Martin is familiar with various aspects of theatre arts and with styles of acting methodology; furthermore, Martin’s training for Arya is based upon a real approach to “becoming” a character.

“Method actors are often characterized as immersing themselves in their characters, to the extent that they stay in character offstage or off-camera for the duration of a project” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting].

*snip*

I think there is also the aspect of commentary here that in a sense, all social roles are in a sense, a falsehood, an act.

Acting is - as a profession - pretending to be someone who you are not (convincingly).

Method acting? Total immersion, to "feel" what your character should feel, react how they should react, speak as they would speak.

Being a Faceless Man, with the flesh-crafting magic they use, is an even deeper immersion - you take on someone else's face, their memories and personality flow into you

As well with Arya as with the other Starks, they are wargs, which is yet another sort of immersion - shared flesh, a blending of the mind and spirit. You take on the traits of the animals you warg, and to some degree they also take on yours.

With the leaders in ASOIAF, there is the recurring theme of having to play the role they inhabit - be it Eddard and his "Lord's Face", Dany and her having to wear the "floppy ears", or Melisandre commenting about Jon needing to employ the trappings of power. However, in all these cases, the subjects were still themselves.

In the case of Sansa / Alayne Stone, we have one of the other cases of a true false identity. Tellingly, Sansa is even instructed she must be Alayne "even in her heart". Yet, part of that is the fact that even as Littlefinger is telling her to be deceptive in one way (to keep her cover identity), there is the ironic effect that now that she is being "Alayne", she takes on a trait more fitting of Baelish's daughter and also starts deceiving him.

Sansa was already somewhat more inclined towards "putting on a performance" than her siblings. Many of her traits to begin with were about social performance - she could sing, play the high harp and the bells, and was the "star" of WInterfell as AGOT began. Her "role" then (in her own mind) expanded to being the Future Princess Of The Realm (before falling apart, of course).

I read the Mercy chapter as a sort of commentary on acting and falseness, as seen through Arya's eyes. The more I read it, the more I think the character "Mercy" is playing in the play has to be Sansa. Mercy is the character Arya is playing, and aside from the fact Arya is being affected by some girl named Mercedene's personality, I think she also is adding elements of what she thinks Sansa is: she smiles, she sings, she is graceful, she flounces, and does everything prettily. Combined with Arya's thoughts about what Mercy is like, there is a cynical undertone to it, an unkindness, that suggests (to me) it is a veiled criticism by Arya of her sister. Pretty, friendly, popular, always putting on an act for other people - but ultimately someone false.

The only time we see Arya underneath Mercy is when she's threatening Bobono or about to kill Raff - then she is Arya, the Night Wolf.

For me, the most disturing was the reaction of the public to the Jamie/Cercei scene, because I thought it was clearly rape. And I found it very odd that people didn't considerer it that way.

And I'm talking just about the tv series, as I havent read the books.

It jars the show-only people worst, and I can see it causing a divide.

Without giving too much away if you do want to read, the book counterpart of that scene was tumultuous, forceful, (still) incestous and with a touch of necro now, but definitely not rape.

Perhaps the show could have made a subtle change in the scene to make this more clear.

Still ... Lannisters + sex = squick. It is known.

It just occured to me that the reference to the queen wanting Tyrion's head doesn't necessarily mean it's Cersei.

Why would Marge cancel the bounty on Tyrion when this means that the Tyrells are off the hook?

She would not have a clear political reason to, you're right. Not that Margaery wants Tyrion's head - for trial, yes, but the whole trade-a-lordship-for-the-dwarf's-head thing was 100% Cersei.

That being said, I think the men referring to "the Queen" mean Cersei. Remember these are Lannister men, and even if they do not know of Cersei's release, in any power struggle, who do they think is really the one to follow?

Lena Headey in Dredd - I really recommend this film.

Liam Cunningham, aside from the other mentions above, was in a fairly recent Dr. Who episode.

The highlight of the episode is when Varys got hit on the head.

I must have missed that. :frown5:

Oh my god the laughter at Locke and Ramsay being torturebuddies :D

:lol: Yeah - "I hear you cut his hand off - awesome, bro !"

From an interview with the showrunners on EW.com posted after the PW aired:

Weiss: To preempt objections, it is not feasible, on a production level, to have a person riding a pig.*

But you looked into it.

Weiss: We did. We were told it was not fair to the pig. They said it would be okay with a pig riding a person.

This did not surprise me at all, that it was minus the pig and dog for these reasons.

Sea Lord has a private forest. And i think he loves to collect unique things. I think many assume Sea Lord is paying out the ass to keep lemon / fruit trees alive in his forest. Which means Dany was living in a cottage in the Sea Lords garden / forest. IF not the Sea Lord and another extremely rich braavos house with there own garden.

Having your own garden with real trees is a status symbol in Braavos

No doubt.

Actually I have wondered about this myself: The Braavosi have a place for seemingly every religion around. Perhaps somewhere in the general area of Braavos is a godswood, and a weirwood tree ?

If so, might Arya end up there at some point ?

Yeah, especially that part where She was so lovely that the lamps seemed to burn brighter when she passed.

It did not seem to me that she should be appreciative one second, then snide about it the next.

Although ... Wouldn't it be interesting if the lights really did burn brighter as she passed? Perhaps the Black Pearl also traditionally knows some shadowbinding magic / glamours?

I still think there is a marked difference between her thoughts, which are appreciative if not admiring and her words. It still seems the line is in Mercy chitchat gossipy mode. Coupled with Arya's thoughts on Mercy's appearance, I think Arya is starting to notice looks and care more about her own. It is only natural if you think about it. Most kids become more aware and attentive of their appearance and grooming as they grow up and her circumstances in a mummers troope would encourage this. If nothing else she should be sick and tired of being dissed because she looks bedraggled.

\You're right - could be the Mercy influence in her head too.

Interesting notice of the Balck pearl. Arya seem in admiration of her on acount of her appearance commenting her atire with approval. Which is sort of a first for Arya and a contrast ot the first time she met her when sh did not comment on her appearance at al. Yet is it just me who hears her being a bit snide when she speaks to Daena calling her the "brown pearl"? Sort of in the line OMG she is fabulous - that bitch. Could she actually be jealous of her?

No, I think she's just being somewhat coldly observational. The woman is referred to as "Black", because of her ancestor being from the Summer Islands, but in truth she's not as exotic as the Braavosi like to say she is. It is a bit like the story of the Sealord's housecat, and how Syrio saw true, to how ordinary it actually was.

Anyway, I did just want to say I think many things make LS different from Beric, even with his multiple reanimations. The insanity and grief at her moment of death, the days in the water, and her erroneous belief that all her children are gone. Quite frankly, I think Cat herself would be horrified to realize the type of things she is doing if and when the thought of her live children reach her.

This is why Lady Stoneheart is not entirely Catelyn, as UnBeric was not really Beric. Beric died in a moment of being brave and dutiful and trying to bring justice to the Riverlands - so he gets to relive that over and over, until all other aspects of life are gone from him.

Lady Stoneheart died in a situation of ultimate grief and rage at the destruction of everything she loved - and that is what Lady Stoneheart is reliving over and over, past the point where all of Cat's warmth and love and compassion are long gone.

Why would you consider Stoneheart or the BWB irrelevant? They've been concocted for some purpose.

Like Uncat their story parallels Arya's rather conspicuously, and having become an inhumane instrument of revenge I think they're good candidates to receive the gift, if not the mercy of death then release from their deathly master. And in meeting and perhaps ending Uncat and the BWB Arya may realise something of herself in them. I think it'd be rather fitting, especially as it was in an Arya chapter we first met the then rather noble BWB.

Well, she already got a fairly heavy description from Beric himself of what a horror it was to live on and on without really being alive.

.

Oh, and since we're on a new incarnation of the thread ...

So how do you see Arya doing this? ...

I don't envision all this stuff, but other than that I think my point was clear enough on why Arya would not view it as something positive.

Suffice to say, if Arya was the one to put Lady Stoneheart down, I imagine some sort of magic-related occurence being responsible, more than any plainly physical solution.

Izembaro is not Varys; Varys is in King's landing.

Oh, and since we're on a new incarnation of the thread ...

Anyone plan to do a "Corn Code" decoding of the way Arya is saying "Mercy" ?