Jô Maltese

Have you even read the 9 threads? Or the OP in full? Have you read TWoIaF? Have you read F&B? We have addressed this argument millions of time, so I will not try to make you see the Lord of Light (but Lord Varys will, I'm sure).

And Tyrion does not need to be Tywin's son to be a Lannister: Joanna was a Lannister anyway. Also, think of Jon and Eddard: Jon is NOT Eddard's son... And yet he is so much like him because Eddard raised him.

Hi @Suzanna Stormborn , Happy New Year! (And to all the AJTers by the way).

OP, GRRM has explained this many times before, quote below for instance:

fully with you M'Lord (it's not that often !). These are the ideas I was trying to explicit a few posts above.

You're right, my bad

I disagree on this. I think many readers did put two and two together - or at least thought of it as strong possibility, as early as AGoT. I certainly did when I realised how insane Lysa was and how toxic was her relationship with her son when Cat was at the Erye, and then Lord Walder Frey, of course:

I am not going to argue forever with you on this, because I am somewhat lost with your thought processes and your second-guessings out of the blue. But the main thing you are missing IMHO, is how GRRM'S characters are full of weaknesses and fissures, be them commonfolk or Kingsguards. (1) So what? Again, History is full of them - they are all men with their weaknesses. Aerys Oakheart POV is in the books for a reason IMHO. (2) Of course not, it is very relevant - They are knights above all and I think the White Bull was an oaf and that Jaime had the right of it. Again, I am not stating anything, I just lay it as a possibility, but the truth is I don't know and don't yet understand the whole ToJ arc. So some of your questions here are good questions (some less so), the problem is that I do not think we have enough matter to answer them - and when we have we will then be able to solve this mystery. For a start, we do not know if they were smart guys, and apart from Dayne, we are not even sure they were armoured with Honour the way Ned was. Why not, dear me? This actually the most likely scenario IMHO! Why not, I grant you that. ETA: somewhat ed by @Bael's Bastard here, in a much more succinct and effective way!

Not on board with you, as RLJ with love and marriage is a dead certainty for me. As for the murder of Jon Arryn, we do actually have two BIG early clues that have the reader wonder about the Lannister's guilt: the fostering of Robert in Dragonstone vs Casterly Rock, and the VS knife belonging to Tyrion vs LF. That said, I acknowledge you have made your homework here and I really enjoyed reading your opening post(s). Especially this part: I have never thought of that (), nor read this idea anywhere else (it's probably out there somewhere in this Forum though). I think you are spot on.

There is a huge difference here! Rhaegar was not betraying his father after all, he came back to protect his father's seat. Jaime killed the reigning King, and after Rhaegar died. Not sure it is really worth discussing what may have happened then, because as you rightly stress it, there is a huge veil on these 9 months (or so) between Lyanna's "abduction" and the end of the Rebellion. That said, I have a feeling that Aerys eventually discovered the identity of the KotLT and consequently ordered Lyanna's arrest. Rhaegar, who had already put two and two together during the Tourney - and had fallen in love with her, volunteered for her capture and then was the one inventing the "abduction story", fooling his father in pretending that this (and keeping her far from King's Landing) would protect Aerys from the Starks' wrath. Rhaegar probably intended to secretly get back to the Starks to explain the whole situation... But his plans were shattered by Brandon's flashing temperament and Aerys' insanity, and the only choice left to Rhaegar, in order to establish a "new order", was to defeat the Rebellion first.

Or Sansa becomes THE Queen and Sandor becomes a KG again...

There were only seven rubies in total IIRC, representing the 7 kingdoms on his breastplate.

(1) This is actually a very sensible thing to do when you decide to betray a King who is known for his insane cruelty. (2) Either he is ok with this because he swallowed whatever explanation Rhaeagar / a trusted Councillor gave him, or he is ok with this because he thinks that Lyanna is a good hostage against all those Stark-led traitors, or because he is too insane anyway to see the importance of the ToJ, or because he is so paranoid that the ones he fears the most are all of his KGs and therefore he is happy to send them away (think of Rhaenyra). (3) Yes and no: he had the leverage to recall Rhaegar... But not his Kingsguard. You may have the truth of it explaining why Rhaegar did return to his father - he could not abandon his (former?) wife and children to the cruelty of his father or his father's enemies. But if the 3 ToJ KGs had switched their loyalties to Rhaegar (and his line) instead of Aerys in the meantime, then it actually makes sense to the plot: Rhaegar did not want to overtly betray his father, came back to protect his "first" family, but he nonetheless made sure his Lyanna and her child to be were safe as well, protected by his "faithful" KGs. (4) No, there is no need for a reason here. Your priority at war is not where 3 top fighters are, but to make sure all your potential banner men and allies are in and under your command. Aerys probably thought "Fuck the ToJ", what did matter at the time was the Trident and the allegiance of the Dornish / Westerlands armies.

@Aegon VII, @JNR @kissdbyfire, @Ygrain, @Bastard of Bournemouth, here is a little gem about THE song:

This is exactly the kind of answer I like : I am going to say I disagree with your conclusions, but you lay out unquestionable facts. So what follows is just a different (subjective) take away of your facts . (1) Even if I think GRRM used an enormous amount of historical background to build up his story (I call it "Culture"), I am convinced the last thing he wants to do, is to align his closure with some sort of historical predestinate ending. (2) In a nutshell, this is exactly why I think he will be the ultimate hero: he understood his role as the one (only one? with Dany?) who could save Humanity from the Others / Long Night / Night King. The very facts that he is already dead, has become very dark, disillusioned with the general human weakness (so unlike him in terms of strength, honour, courage, resolve, endurance etc...) will allow him to make the right choices (sacrifice himself or Dany or both?) in order to save the World from the WW, but will also prevent him from being a "regular" King in the end. In a way, I think his fate will be like Frodo's in the Lord of The Rings: Only Frodo could be the ring-bearer, but he could not achieve this without permanently damaging himself, unable to carry on living in a "normal world", so he ended up going to a kind of "world of the dead"... (3) ... While no-nonsense Sam Gamgee (without whom Frodo could not have succeeded) ended up as the Mayor of the Shire. No, you can not rule with a heart made of stone! Nor can you rule with a heart made of marshmallow ! Balance between harsh sensible decisions and soft sensitive decisions are the key. You need to find the right balance between, primarily, security (up to the survival of the political entity, here the 7K), and the welfare of the people through another tricky balance (using my own country's motto) : Freedom (Liberté), Justice (Égalité) and Solidarity (Fraternité).