The Wolves

Realistically the Others should win. 
 

Westeros and the world is too divided, stupid and unprepared for them to win. We have dead cold things walking towards main civilization and all eyes and swords are pointed towards that ugly throne. 
 

And the two people(Jon and Dany) who are supposed to fight these things are 15yr old. The world should be doomed! 

I talk about how Robert was a horrible friend, father, king, person all round but he was surrounded by horrible people. 
 

Ned and Jon Arryn along with Stannis and Renly also Cersei and his advisors were enablers. Robert got where he was because no one called him out. He was babied by Arryn and hyped by Ned. 

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean…I disagree. I do not think Jaime is an equal participant and I think it is ridiculous to say he is. Jaime is not the queen. He is not married to the King. He did not make the decision to abort the babies. Like. To call them equally responsible seems honest weird and like you are taking a different point (maybe that men and women are equally responsible for making baby, which I agree with)…but it just doesn’t make sense here. Jaime is a assistant manager at best in this situation. Someone else is makign decisions and MAYBE he agrees with thst choice…but here is the thing, Cersei would still do it even if Jaime disagreed. Cersei’s choice is what matters here in the end. 

Jaime is the Kingsguard who swore to protect the King and not cuckold the King. 
 

But Jaime also made choices. He chose to give his sister three bastard incestuous children and robbed the Kings his heirs. 
 

And no Cersei wouldn’t have done it if Jaime disagreed. Cersei is to narcissistic and in love with Jaime to not have his children. 

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

Of course he had no right to be upset! It's absolutely disgusting that he was, what an awful human being. A good man wouldn't be in his place. Like, four of Ned's children don't have typical Stark features. Why? Because Ned was good man. 

I don’t get what you’re saying. 
 

Also what does Ned, the Starks or any of four of his children have to do with Jaime and him sleeping with Cersei? 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Ho dares Jaime to hate the fact that his life partner sleeps with another man. Any decent man must be a willing cuckold! 

Jaime had no right to be upset. They are brother and sister and Cersei was always going to be married to someone not her brother. 
 

Cersei and Jaime even planned them continuing their incestuous relationship while she married. That’s the reason Jaime became a Kingsguard was to continue his relationship with Cersei while she married to the king and provided heirs. 
 

What did Jaime think was going to happen? 

58 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oof. Listen, I think there is a ton of mysigony underneath the viewpoints of many users here, so don’t get me wrong. However, nah. Like just..nah. You can not be a sexist and have either of the above opinions.

1. I personally think Rhaenyra was obviously the rightful Queen and also that she won the war…like obviously won the war, yet people act like she didn’t even though her troops took the throne and put her son on the throne. However…people are complicated. You could not like Rhaenyra and not be a mysigonist. From my memory, she was not a particularly likeable person. A lot of people here (and in other forums) let personal dislike heavily influence how they feel about a character. People can not like a person who is a woman without then being sexist. I personally dislike Lysa Tully. Cause she is a horrible human being and her treatment of both her sister and niece in particular stuck out to me as reasons to dislike her strongly. 

2. Listen, I just gone done saying people were being to forgiving of Jaime in another post, lol. HOWEVER, I don’t think that makes them sexist. Like I said, people use personal dislike or personal like and then expand that to form opinions. They are often very biased toward and against characters based on these feelings. The people forgiving Jaime…like Jaime. The people attacking Cersei..don’t like Cersei. Many of those same people mig byt be biased for a certain other female character and against a different male character.

You get what I’m saying? You are taking one evidence and using it to form a …well prejudiced opinion about a whole group of people (probably based on your interaction with a few actually sexist people). Listen, I met plenty of sexist Cersei haters or Jaime supporters. I get it. I’ve seen it. My personal experience has led me to pre-stereotype Stannis-stans as being a bit cringe and incel-ey…however not all Stannis stans are like that. There are many that are reasonable and clearly not like the stereotype that I had subconsciously formed. 

I think generalizations like this honestly just give right-wingers more firepower. This is the kind of comments they use to act like we are just as bad as them. I don’t know. I just think what you are saying is ignoring the very real possibility of people just not liking two characters who are…not that likable and then being biased against them because of that dislike. Again, don’t get me wrong. People who hate Catelyn Tully are often sexists, and it would be easy to say “all Catelyn Tully haters are sexist”…but they aren’t. I’ve spoken to them. Many have reasons, non-sexist reasons, for disliking her. Yes, mysigony HEAVILY plays into how people feel about Raenyra, Cersei, and Catelyn. But not all. Not 100%. And talking about the underlying mysigony of the arguments = Great idea. Blythely calling everyone a mysigonist = Good way to make sure no one engages with you or will ever consider their own subconcious mysigony. 

I’m not saying that people disliking Rhaenyra is misogynistic, I’m saying that the reasons people don’t think she deserves her throne is because of misogyny. Rhaenyra can be a very unlikable person and that’s fine that people don’t like her. 
 

Also Jaime and Cersei share equal blame for the war yet Cersei is always blamed and Jaime excused. I’ll go as far to say that Jaime is more to  blame than Cersei but that’s another discussion. 

Anyone who doesn’t think Rhaenyra shouldn’t have inherited the throne in book, book readers and even show watchers are misogynistic. That throne was hers and she and hers should have inherited it with out war, death, pain and horrors. 
 

Renly sucked, house Baratheon sucks and I’m glad they’re dying out. 
 

Anyone who blames Cersei for her role in TWOT5Ks but doesn’t give Jaime his fair share is misogynistic. 
 

A lot of characters are interchangeable. Their motivations and old grievances are petty.

Viserys Targaryen is one of the most sympathetic characters. He was horrible to Dany but life was so unfair to him. 
 

Lyanna did nothing wrong and Rhaegar’s only crime was leaving his wife to run away with Lyanna. 
 

I hope Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story. 
 

Cersei is a tedious POV character. Tyrion and Jaime are getting there. 

Than I would have probably cared if/when he died. 
 

But he wasn’t kindhearted, he was a POS who deserved his death and Cersei deserved that hurt more so eh. 

3 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

He did when he was a teen.

No he didn’t!! 
 

He sure didn’t care when Tywin and his men terrorized Kings Landing. He never cared about them ever. 
 

On 8/30/2023 at 2:32 PM, Willam Stark said:

They don't deserve to be called "knights" except Teen Jaime.

They are just...well kingsguards.

That’s a stretch. 
 

Jaime joined the Kingsguard with the intention of screwing his sister and possible future queen. He also lied to Tyrion about his wife. 
 

Jaime was shit even as a teen. 

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

He attempted to get cozy with the new King of the Iron Throne that the STAB (including Lord Eddard Stark) alliance had elected, and whose position was threatened by the Targaryens.

Tywin and his monsters are guilty of their crimes, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking those who bent the knees to Robert (apparently based on his Targaryen's blood) didn't jeopardize the lives of the remaining Targaryens.

Hum what are you talking about ? Ned didn't fight the war for Robert, he did it to keep his heads and most of all for his family. To avenge his father and brother from the gruesome deaths they had suffered and for the sister who had disappeared. Now, sure as a Targs lover, you might have a problem with the Starks retaliating to the Targaryens's madness and entitlement, but out of all the stupid things he did, putting an end to the reign of these lunatic was definitely not one of those. In fact it is the best thing he did imo.

I disagree but it doesn't matter anyway, they were the enemies of the Starks, they had to be dealt with accordingly.

Well actually not really, Tywin's absolute neediness to marry into the Targs is proof of his admiration towards the Dragonlords. Look at the way he was still throwing his daughter at Rhaegar in spite of all the humiliation he had suffered from Aerys, the man had no self-esteem when it comes to the Targs which is the reason why he kept eating so much sh*t from Aerys while begging for a marriage. Aerys merely saw him as the greedy servant he was.

They didn't do worse. The kingdom fell when they all died. During their living, the kingdom was at peace. 

 

Tywin only wanted to marry into the Targaryens for the throne. It wasn’t any obsession with them as a family. Tywin imagined his daughter a queen and blood on that ugly throne. 
 

Of course the rebels did worse at running a kingdom. How does a kingdom fall into a civil war after a newly appointed royal family? 
 

Someone tell me how you have the makings of a King(Robert had the lineage, power, education, backing of powerful men, etc..) and still manage to fuck it all up? Westeros fell into a civil war because the new king was a drunken idiot who should have died in the crib or been an overlooked second son. The neglect that Robert, Arryn, and even Ned gave to Westeros allowed for the Lannisters to slowly but surely grasp control of that throne. Arryn arranging a marriage between Robert and Cersei was ridiculous. Robert keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard, spending the gold in the treasury, ect… 

Arryn, Robert, and Ned(my poor Ned)were idiots and got theirs with death in betrayal.

9 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That's quite the claim. So Tywin attempting to get all cozy with STAB makes STAB responsible for his actions?

Yep. 
 

When you not only deny those innocents justice as King, than dehumanize and finally reward their murderers for that horrific deed then yeah you are responsible. 

4 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

All those who bent the knees to Robert (before the Trident) are as responsible for what happened to Elia and her children - looking at you Eddard Stark -, and being naive af doesn't absolve you of sh*t. In fact naive fools are the most dangerous people because they never measured the consequences of their acts, and are satisfied into hiding afterwards behind their so-called honor to distance themselves from what they created. Ned crying over the crime of Tywin's men will never change the horrible fate of Elia of Dorne and her children. Now sure, it probably help him sleeping well at night thinking he was the better man while he wasn't (he was just an idiot).

While the ending of the Rebellion clearly showed that Robert didn't have standard, I see the success of the rebellion as statement for the Targ's madness. These fools had such a high opinion of themselves that they f*cked with the wrong people at the worst time. Don't forget that Aerys had threaten the Martells for them to support Rhaegar with 10 000 spears ! The Prince and his army got literally crushed while having a slight advantage in numbers, what kind of slaughter would it have been if Dorne hadn't broken under the threats of the king...

Ned was an idiot. I don’t absolve him in the part he played in Rober’s Rebellion. From waging war when he could have and should have stayed in the North to declaring that worthless, idiot, useless drunk king is all idiot decisions. 
 

And you’re right, everyone who declared Robert king on the Trident is responsible for Elia and her children’s deaths. I’ll also say they have some responsibility in TWOT5Ks also. 
 

Also the Targaryens are no different from any other narcissistic lord or king that’s been in Westeros. Tywin’s high opinion of himself and family is higher than any Targs we’ve met in the main story and historically. The Targaryens, Baratheons, Lannisters, Hightowers, Tullys, Freys, Boltons, Martells, Starks, Greyjoys, Marbrands, Arryns, Royce, Tyrells, Valaryons, Farwynd, Eastermont, Dayne, etc….. are all the same lords and kings who’ve thought highly of themselves. The Targaryens didn’t deserve that fall more than any other great house who’ve raped, murdered, tortured, attack, stolen, terrorized, unleashed war and then some. 
 

Robert, Arryn, and Ned in their arrogance thought that they could do better and did worse. 

6 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

What, exactly, did Rickard Stark do to deserve being burned alive?

Rickard Stark wasn’t a rebel. 
 

Arryn, Robert, Ned, Tully, and Tywin are the rebels. 
 

Rickard and Brandon Stark didn’t deserve their deaths or Arryns heir. Aerys was wrong to kill the highborns lords. 
 

But just because Aerys was wrong it’s doesn’t take away the fact what the rebels did and what atrocities they allowed to happen. 

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I would criticise Jon Arryn, too.  It makes a mockery of his claim "As high as honour."

I’ve always criticized Arryn for that. What happened to Elia and her children were what tainted that rebellion. A bunch of men standing around as two children and a women who were brutalized is wrapped in Lannisters’ cloth and presented to the “King”. Arryn stood by and helped to reward that evil while Robert stood over their bodies and dehumanized and dismissed it was beyond anything the Targaryens did. 
 

The physical reaction to what was done to Elia and her children is and will always make seethe with hatred and make me team Targaryens in Robert’s Rebellion. The rebels dying the way they did is poetic and just(except Ned who is my favorite character) they all deserved their betrayals and deaths.  

Currently reading Bernard Cornwell’s The Winter King, it’s a King Arthur retelling. This has been on my TBR since last year and since the show is coming out this month I wanted to get on it. 
 

I’ve heard nothing but great things about this trilogy so I’m excited to read it. 

3 hours ago, Kal-L said:

That's an interesting way to see things, probably the way Lyanna herself conceived the world. "I enjoy the privilege of being Lord Stark daughter but I don't owe anything to that said House or anybody related to it."

Luckily for her, her dear brother Ned had a good heart and in spite it all was ready to look over the flaws (selfishness here) of those he loved (his pack) - even though they didn't deserve such loyalty from his part. A harder man would have taken her stance to the heart and left her and her baby to fend for themselves with whoever was present with them at the ToJ (Wylla ?). No need to specify that the gate of Winterfell would be forever closed to them.

 

Why wouldn’t Lyanna conceive the world that way. She was a 14 yr old child sold from her father to Robert Baratheon. Her feelings, thoughts, and desires didn’t matter so why should anyone else’s. 
 

On 7/24/2023 at 12:54 PM, James Steller said:

Frankly, if it’s true that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, then I’d like to see Ned point out that her and Rhaegar’s actions led to the deaths of thousands of people, including two of her own relatives and Rhaegar himself, as well as his wife and kids. Let’s see her try to justify it with “but our baby is the chosen ooooonnnnnne”

Maybe I’m in the minority or just a lone wolf in my opinion but Lyanna owned no one anything. 
 

She didn’t owe her house, not her Father, Ned, Or Brandon anything. 
 

She sure as hell owed Robert nothing. 
 

She owed the people of Westeros less. 
 

I will always say Elia and her children were wronged by everyone but Lyanna owed them nothing. 
 

Lyanna probably has more blame than I give her. But I don’t think a bunch of men who had thousands at their command is not given their fair share of blame in starting a civil war.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

And Jon that is, who would not habe to suffer growing up  in the house of a surrogate mother he wanted her to adpt him but she hated him.

 

He did not, Jon was owed safety and his life, the truth was tertiary to that.

It was a can of worms that benefitted no one and put everyone at risk.

 

I don't really see the irony, Joff not being Robert's son is what fucks an otherwise pretty good regime.

Literally the opposite of irony, especially after the twincest is revealed.

Jon never suffered in Winterfell. Him getting a few looks from Catelyn doesn’t equate to suffering. Also Jon never wanted Catelyn to “adopt” him or be a surrogate mother(where is this coming from?)

On 7/15/2023 at 4:58 AM, frenin said:

Jon will have each and every reason to be angry at every adult that played fast and loose with his future.

But plenty of readers who ought to know better than Ned seem to share that dislike and it's completely irrational, especially 2, 4 and 5.

Like I'm sorry but aren't fans aware that Ned had just overthrowed the Targaryens? Why did he owe Jon or Lyanna to throw what remained of his House to an impossible war against someone Ned was closer with than his own brothers?

 

Another unpopular opinion is... Ned would have solved a lot of problems within his family if he had thrown Jon to what's his name vassals and limited contact with him and his family. No wolves tho.

What problems did the Starks have with Jon being raised in Winterfell with his siblings? Catelyn is the only one who had a problem with it. She was the one imagining imaginary scenarios about Jon. Jon being raised anywhere but Winterfell with his father and siblings would have benefited Catelyn and Catelyn only. 
 

No one is saying that Ned should have thrown himself into a war with Robert, just that Jon deserved to know. 
 

Also the irony about Ned going to war with house Baratheon when almost 2 decades later that house’s “heir” killed him and brought nothing but death and destruction to the Starks. 
 

The irony. 

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why should he be angry at Ned? I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

This man lied to Jon his whole life about his parentage, no matter if it was to protect him. Jon is also hearing this from someone not Ned when Ned had years to tell him. 
 

He never told Jon about Lyanna being the one person who knew her best. Jon imaged bad scenarios about his mother when Ned could have put that to rest. Ned handled the Jon situation so horribly sometimes. 

Jon has no reason to be upset with Rhaegar and Lyanna. His anger should be directed rightfully at Ned. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Yeah you can.

 

Don't know if that's the most relevant counter argument to the fact that the Watch is a penal colony whose secondary most important task is that of getting rid of political rivals/enemies in a swift and clean manner.

It's completely inmaterial the kids would of no use.

If Aegon had been sent to the Watch, not even Ned would have throw a fit.

 

 

Ned should have thrown a fit if Aegon had lived and been sent to the Wall. 
 

Aegon getting punished by being sent to the Wall for the sins of Rhaegar or house Targaryen is cruel. 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not from their perspective because he could be susceptible to the Madness.

That would be a BS excuse. Robert was the only one who hated the Targs like that. Plus Aegon would have been part Martell not all Targaryen. 
 

I still don’t understand the logic or reasoning behind installing Robert as King. The short sightedness is the reason TWOT5KS happened. 

7 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes because theres never been an unsuitable targ ruler? Its a feudal monarchy not a democracy  there were no suitable candidates from the tiny pool  such a limited backward  system produces.

Yes he aligned with the lannisters man  as they had already aligned with him AND far more importanly they are far far too powerful to be left and possibly align with the reach and dorne! Marrying cersi tied the rebel block into one stable dynasty....the twincest could not have been predicted

No one was aligning with the Lannisters. They have no allies. What would the Lannisters have offered the Reach to align themselves with them? Gold? Power? Status? The Reach had all that and more. The Reach needed the crown and the Lannisters can’t give them that. 
 

Also Dorne is not ever aligning with the Lannisters. They raped and murdered Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. 
 

The Lannisters don’t have any allies. Any relationships they have with other houses is based on coercion, fear, and hatred. 
 

The child that is not corrupted from war and any negative feelings should have been king. With Dorne and others to guide him, Aegon could have been a good king(the sad thing is that we could never know).