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House Of Wolves

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  1. No , you are right there is not. There is nothing that states the Children born in wedlock would come before the legitimized bastard either. I am just going off of what the Wiki said after looking it up. Here is what Wiki said on the Right of Inheritance on this particular topic. "It is unclear whether a legitimized bastard would be placed in the succession according to birth order, or would be placed at the end, after the trueborn children" So we do not know who would come first. Assuming the Wiki is right then it is unknown who would come first in that particular scenario. That being said being named heir on a Will like we are assuming Jon was that would be obvious who would be the rightful heir at that point. I am not sure if it just unknown who Comes first in the right of succession or if in the entire World of the seven kingdoms it is unknown who comes first in the line of succession.
  2. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on if the will itself is valid or not based off the circumstances. I will admit I am wrong about the Law of succession . I just looked it up on Wiki and it states that it is unknown who comes before the other. There is no information on who would become next in line between natural born children and a bastard who becomes Legitimized by the king. I would still say being named successor on a will and legitimized would still make the bastard the rightful heir over the natural born children. But if there was no will then it is speculation at least according to wiki there is nothing stated in the books on who would come first.
  3. While I would agree that ultimately The Norther lords could Potentially follow any # of the Stark Children. I think who comes first Becomes really important as well. Will it be Rickon being named King? Will it be the Will and Jon being named King. Will it be Sansa Coming North with the support of the Vail. Who comes first definitely will matter a lot because it could become hard to toss one Stark aside for another. That being said it would be hard to refute Jon as being the Rightful King should the Will surface. I mean it is the word of King Robb signed by almost every significant Lord of the north and even the Tully's in Riverrun. While not impossible that is going to be hard thing for someone with Honor and who was Loyal To King Robb to try and deny. You are right she was. I should have said that when Arguing with Robb she did concede to him that if Jon was not a threat to Robb or her son that his children might be a different story . Sure anyone who wanted to deny it and say it was invalid could that doesn't mean it is not valid because it is valid. Based off the Laws of there land, A King may and only a King may Legitimize a bastard Born Child. Doing so will make that child no different then any other of his children. Call it true born or what ever Jon becomes no different then the other Stark children. While anyone who wanted to could Deny Jon after the Will was discovered. This does not make the Will invalid. Robb and almost every lord of note singing the Will is about as valid of a will as it could possibly get.
  4. Yes she is worried more about the future problems of Jon being Legitimized Because she believes Bran, RIckon and Arya to be dead. She knows Jon himself is not really a threat to Robb himself, as he is already named king but she also knows that Legitimizing Jon makes him Neds true born son and People could eventually back him or his sons over Robb's descendants in the future. Therefore once Jon becomes a Stark he cant be named a bastard once again. He becomes Neds true born son. The will does not become invalid if Bran and Rickon are found out to be alive. It does not matter what the intent or the reasons of Robb 's Will being signed were. The fact is if he Legitimized Jon as Neds true born son. He becomes the oldest living of Ned Stark's sons. The will makes Jon the rightful heir of Winterfell. If Robb simply named Jon his heir then it would matter that Bran and RIckon were alive but If he Legitimized Jon removing his bastard blood , then he becomes not only the written heir but also the rightful heir. the only way for anyone to dispute this is to dispute that Robb had the power to legitimize Jon , which is to deny Robb was ever King. Again not many people in the north other then people like the Boltons, are going to call Robb a traitor who was never a king.
  5. It is definitely and interesting theory that Arya could have been named in his will. I will even admit it is possible Robb could have Mentioned Arya somewhere in his will as an appeasement to his mother. That being said even Cat seems to have accepted that Arya is almost certainly dead at this point. It would have been extremely Foolish and I mean next level Foolish/stupid to put in a will that If a little girl who had been missing for close to two years, Believed to be dead should one day show up that she would Become his heir over the other he was naming. Even a stupid person should be able to see the potential problems that could arise from putting that in the will. I mean people have already used a fake Arya in the books without the will. It seems like a big risk to put into your will for someone you are certain is already dead. The fact that Arya is not mentioned by Robb is interesting but to me it is not surprising. The whole point of the will nameing a new heir is that his Current heir Sansa Is unfit and he is naming a new Heir. So when he is talking to the lords he explains his two brothers are dead , making his sister Sansa his current rightful heir. He explains that because she is married to a Lannister that she is unfit to be his heir and asks them to sign a document his choice for new heir. Robb does not need to talk about those who would have come next in line naturally after Sansa. Sure he could have mentioned his probably dead Sister Arya . He could have mentioned his probably dead uncle Benjan Stark. He could have Mentioned those who would come after that. He was not trying to say others who came after Sansa were unfit. He was trying to say his current heir Sansa was unfit and that he was naming a new person his heir and wanted the lords to back his decision with there signatures.
  6. Sure, Being a Stark is a part of that Desire. Most of his life I think he would have been just happy being considered a Stark but that does not change the fact that Jons greatest desire growing up and all the way up to ADWD is to be Jon Stark Lord of Winterfell. He accepted early in his life he would never be that though. So he tried to keep from admitting it to himself. He does of course eventually admits it to himself. He thinks to himself on the prospect of marrying Val and becoming the Lord of winterfell, he states that there was nothing he wanted more. There are other examples in the books just none stated so plainly. Jon trying to prove to himself and others that he is honorable and not a treacherous bastard, is the reason for most of Jon's decisions especially earlier on in the books. While you are right that Jons Ultimate decision was based off the old gods and having to abandon them and his oath to accept Stannis offer. That being said, Stannis brings up the offer of making Jon lord multiple times and His automatic reaction is to say it belongs to his sister Sansa. This is not out of love for his sister. This is him rejecting his desire to be lord of winterfell. This is his fear of being the treacherous bastard that people told him that bastards were.
  7. While Technically anyone could try to dispute Jon For any reason they wanted to. It wouldn't mean that Jon would be clearly the rightful heir. Assuming Robb did Legitimize Jon as Neds True born son . Jon Is next in line to the throne. I think Jon will accept King in the north before it is discovered his brothers are alive. After that people might not want him to give it up to say Sansa or RIckon who is currently a toddler. Jon himself might not want to give it up, as Being lord of winterfell has always been his secret desire. It will be interesting to see who the northern lords back and if the Starks will stick together through potential disputes over the claim to the throne. Jon was also very close to accepting Stannis on his offer to make him Lord of Winterfell. I think Jon always insisted it belonged to Sansa because he is trying to prove he does not posses the negative qualities people say bastards have. Jon wants to be lord of WInterfelll more then anything in the world. He always has. Robb naming Jon his heir frees him of the guilt that he is taking something that does not belong to him. Robbs will give him permission and the right to claim what he has always wanted but has trouble even admitting to himself. Again, it makes no sense for Robb to name Arya his heir at this point. It defeats the purpose of him needing to replace Bran And RIckon. It is believed by pretty much everyone including Robb that Arya is almost certainly dead. Arya's name did not need to be mentioned by Robb. He is stating his brothers are dead and the next in line is Sansa and that he cannot allow Sansa to inherit Winterfell and the north.
  8. A lot of people overlook this Fact. As Catelyn told Robb when he was planning to name Jon his heir. Once it is done it cannot be undone. Robbs will assuming the very likley aspect that Robb Legitimized Jon. Then Jon becomes the rightful heir over all the other Stark children. There would only be a few ways to refute Jon as the rightful King. 1. If you deny that Robb was king. If you can deny Robb was king then you could say he had no right to Legitimize Jon. But people are going to have a hard time convincing many in the North Robb was never a king. 2. You could make the argument he was not the rightful king if it was ever discovered Jon was not Neds son , then some might refute his claim to the throne. People could though based on Robbs wording still say he had the rightful claim to the North. Jon not being Neds son I could possibly see becoming a problem for Jons claim down the line in the books. 3. also if Jon himself refused the throne.
  9. I get why you might think that but I think GRRM did not want Jon being named Robbs heir to come out of left field a book later. if he did that people might be upset there just happened to be this will that showed up books later that made Jon the rightful King over the other Stark kids. The biggest issue with Robb naming someone else his heir is that no one else other then Jon works from a Robb decision stand point and a Character that we would care enough about to matter. Robb would not have named Arya his heir as she was believed to be dead or at best lost. This would have made no sense. It would do him the same good as naming no one. Sansa was the main reason an heir had to be named as Sansa was in the control of Lannisters at the time. Robbs only other options at the time would have been one of the Tullys. None are northmen. Edmure already lord of the RIverlands. The Blackfish is possible but fairly old. Cat seems unlikely and was killed anyways. The only others possibilities is one of the other Lords with him during the war. None have played a part in the story since Robbs death and all were either captured or killed anyways. I dont see any one being a better option at the time for Robb over Jon .
  10. I think if Winds was really good and gave me a little more satisfaction with where the story was at the end , then I think I could live with it. If there was no more books after ADWD, I could no take that. I mean my favorite character Jon Snow was stabbed multiple times by his own men in his last chapter. I could not take the story stopping there lol.
  11. It has to be Janos Slynt for me. When he died I actually Cheered out loud. I would have thought it would have been Joffrey . since, I hated him so much ,but surprisingly his death does not give the reader the satisfaction you would think it would have.
  12. I personally think Robb would have told him. While I do not know exactly how long since rob had left RIverrun. Robbs Will signing chapter was the chapter after his last Riverrun Chapter. So I know it was not that long of a time. I do not think naming Jon his heir was something Robb had not been thinking about for a little while. Robb had already pushed Catelyn out of his inner circle. He planned to ship her away after the wedding. Robb Signed His will in the same chapter he told her. Robb only told her when he did because he knew how she felt about Jon and did not want it sprung on her at the signing of the will. Yes, I am aware Jamie talked to him first. The point I was trying to make was even if Brynden had not Known before then he would have known when Edmure entered Riverrun. Which would still explain the two Tully men taking the black. IMO I do think Brynden knew about Robbs intention to make Jon his heir. I do admit though it is possible he did not know and was instead informed by Edmure. This is just speculation but I think Brynden and Robb discussed naming Jon his heir at Riverrun. Brynden however did not know that Robb had Offically written and signed the WIll before his death . That is Until Edmure confirms it before the Surrender of Riverrun. We do not know if it was if that was in his Will or for sure he wanted Jon out before his death. When talking to Catlelyn I read it as Robb did want to try and get Jon Released from the Nights Watch by offering up men regardless if he died or not. I think the two Tullys are definitely going to the wall. The blackfish definitely could be going to a countless # of locations. Thank you for your Response. Exactly, why would He think the Lannisters made Jon Lord Commander. The entire line he tells Jamie seems like nonsense. I just think he was trying to make Jamie think he did not trust Jon. Lets say for a second Cat did say bad things about Jon to Brynden. Should he believe it? That a teenager who was trusted enough to be voted Lord Commander of one of oldest most Noble Organizations in the entire 7 Kingdoms is untrustworthy. He compares Jon with Theon who Betrayed the Starks and Is believed to have murdered Robbs brothers. I doubt he would have much reason to believe Cat about Jon. He would know that Cat would have reason to dislike Ned,s bastard son. That being said. Again, I do not think It is in Character for Catlelyn to talk To Brynden about Jon. As I said she did not like to talk about Jon, She did not like to think about Jon.I could be wrong but I dont think Cat brings up The topic of Jon once in the books herself and when ever she is made to think about him it upsets her. I Highly doubt Jon was ever, not once , talked about Between the two of them. Neither of them would have wanted to bring up the Subject of Jon to the other. let alone this Scenario where Cat In her limited meetings with her Uncle since her Marriage to Ned , was telling big enough lies about Jon that Brynden sees him as close in Character to Theon.
  13. This is a theory of mine. Based off of Jamie's A Feast for Crows chapters on the siege of Riverrun . It is my belief that the Blackfish and multiple Tully loyalists are aware Jon Snow is Robbs Heir and a couple men are currently already on there way to the wall to join Jon there new King. So the first question that needs to be Answered when Discussing this topic is did Brynden Tully (The Blackfish) know that Robb Named Jon his Heir? We know Robb was planning to name Jon His heir until a time in which he had children. We also know that Brynden was not at the signing of Robb's Will by all the Lords. We do know that Based off of Catelyn's POV that The Blackfish had become Robb's #1 Advisor during the war. We also know that The Blackfish had only just recently left Robbs side before the Official signing of his WIll. It stands to reason based off what we know that Catelyn was not the first to be told of Robbs plan to name Jon his Heir. It seems more likely to me that he would have discussed this with Brynden first. We are only led to think that Brynden does not know about Jon based off of his reaction to Jamie at the mention of Jon. "I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the Wall." -Jamie The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both..." - Brynden Tully I think The Blackfish was trying to Deceive Jamie. The fact that GRRM writes that the mention of Jon caused a noticeable facial reaction for Brynden , Makes it seem like to me that he is lying . It would make sense he would want to make sure that Jamie thinks he distrusted Jon, in order to try and keep what should be obvious to Jamie , that there is a serious risk of people turning to Jon as a replacement for Robb as their King. Also Lets look at Catelyn telling Brynden bad things about Jon. While not impossible, It does not fit what we know about her. She did not like to talk about Jon. She did not even like it when people reminded her of Jon. She did not like to think about him let alone talk about him. Even if the Blackfish somehow wasn't told By Robb about his plans regarding Jon . Edmure who did know entered into the city at the end of the siege of Riverrun and would have more then likely told him at that point. So why do I think There are Currently people Heading to Jon? While we have no clue where The Blackfish is headed. He could be going to the wall and Jon. He could also be going somewhere else. There is however two people Who we know are headed to the wall. Two Tully Loyalists after the Surrender of Riverrun supposedly decided to take the black. Ser Desmond Grell and Ser Robin Ryger. Desmond Grell who is the master-at-arms at Riverrun . A guy who has been in there service almost all his life. Robin Ryger Who is the Captain of the Guards of Riverun. It is pretty convenient isn't it? That probably the two most Prominent Knights of Riverrun. The most Trusted Men of Riverrun (outside of the Tullys themselves) were the only people who choose to take the black when they were not being forced to. These Men Were extremely Loyal to the Tullys. These are men who could have gotten good positions with other Notable houses but they chose the Black instead. Also because they would have been two of the most trusted men at Riverrun for the Blackfish ,they would be very likely to be trusted with the fact that Jon was now the King. The Tullys and the men of Riverrun have not stopped fighting the war , nor have they stopped viewing the Starks as there current rulers. The fact that they would not trade Dead Robbs wife for Edmure there own lord shows that. Also there is this Quote from the Blackfish. Jaime: Does it matter how the boy perished? He's no less dead, and his kingdom died when he did. Brynden: You must be blind as well as maimed, Ser. Lift your eyes, and you will see the Dire wolf still flies above our walls. This was not a man who was looking to stop fighting. These are people who are still fighting for the Starks. I Believe Ser Desmond Grell and Ser Robin Ryger who are currently on there way to the wall are aware Jon Is there King and that is why they are going. It is also interesting that Robbs Original plan was to free Jon from the Watch by replacing with more men. So they could just be going to the wall to protect him, serve him or they could possibly be going to take his place. While I think Bryndens original plan was to keep holding onto Riverrun, once it became clear it was lost he knew it was better for as many men to survive in order serve Jon there King. They Lived to fight another day. It will be interesting to see who all knows Jon is Robbs Heir already. I am also interested to know what Bryndens next plan of action is. Thoughts?
  14. Robb and Stannis never sat the Iron Throne and they both had huge impacts. He doesn't need to sit the Iron Throne to have an impact. I think it is unlikely Arianne is the Queen of the Prophecy. Not Impossible but very unlikely. Seems like her being By Aegons side as he took Kings landing wouldn't really be her casting her down directly. You are right Cersei could Technically flee Kings Landing and then Return to power and then fulfill the Prophecy. Seems like a lot of stuff to happen to make your theory of Aegon taking kings landing work though. Aegon not taking Kings landing would definitely screw up the plans Varys has been working on forever but a lot of times things don't work out the way the character plans. Varys would have to adapt and try to find another candidate for King/Queen. Rob was just in the Riverlands for like a book and half. Stannis was in the North for an entire book and will be for longer in winds. Aegon getting Dorne to join his cause and an invasion into the reach is way more then enough Material for Aegon until Danny Arrives at the end of Winds of winter. While I don't think Aegon taking The Iron throne is impossible. I Personally think it is Unlikely.
  15. I disagree that Aegon taking the Iron throne is pretty much guaranteed. I actually think it is very unlikely he manages to take the Iron Throne. Why? Because Of the prophecy that Cersei Will be cast down by a Queen. I think that this Almost Disqualifies Aegon from ending up on the Iron Throne. Unless another Queen Takes it first and then Aegon took it from that person. I personally think Aegon will stay put until he gets the support of Dorne and then once they Become Allies instead of Instantly marching on Kings landing , They will choose to march on The Reach Instead . It would make sense strategically as the Targaryens have support there and it has a ton of crucial supplies for there enemies and there own armies , like food. I think Danny Arrives in Westeros , where she defeats Aegon before he ever takes Kings landing
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